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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by jojo on November 17, 2000, at 16:25:34
I have found that accepting this worldview eliminated
my guilt about accomplishing so little during extended
periods of depression. I would be very interested in
how others on this board respond to this, and if
experiencing clinical depression has changed their view
of "Free Will""What is troubling us is the tendency to believe that
the mind is like a little man within."
Ludwig WittgensteinThe word "responsibility" is so tied up with the
concept of "free will" that it's meaning, except when
referring to future events, can not be discussed
without confronting it. The meaning of
"responsibility" in reference to future events is
relatively clear. It means one's duties, or things
that one understands, either explicitly or implicitly,
are to be done, or whose accomplishment must be
insured by oversight. The use of the word when
referring to past events, however, is so ambiguous
as to suggest that a subterfuge is occurring,
masquerading as every-day common sense. There is the
meaning that follows directly from the 'future events
usage', as "you did not complete the sales report,
which was your responsibility". Here, "responsibility"
refers to your job description. The other use of the
word when referring to past events involves
judgements, either legal, or moral.
(The questioning of the ….. ???…of "free will"
will appear …What is it that you question when you
question whether one has "free will"? Is it the
existence of free will? Exist where? It's a mechanism
. Or is it actually something that can have
"existence"? When we say a person "has free will",
we seem to be speaking of something other than
something that he "has, something tied up to the vague
concept of "consciousness".) I believe we are talking
about a theory of how something functions.
Contemporary Western culture would generally confine
the discussion to the "higher" forms of organisms,
humans and possibly other "higher" mammals.
Fundamentalist Christians might only consider it in
regard to humans, and then, possibly, only to affirm
it's …function.
I think the concept of "free will" is an ideal
candidate for Cappanari's Law". Cappanari (I'm not
sure of the spelling) was a professor of Anthropology
at Wayne State University in the late 50s whose Law
states that whenever the great majority of mankind
believes something for which there is no evidence,
that belief is incorrect. There is also a corollary,
which states that if there is an opposite to that
belief, it is the opposite that is true. First, what
is the evidence that mankind "possess" or functions by
(the rules?) the mechanism of "free will"? As far as
I can see, it is only the innate, subjective "feeling"
that one can make a "free choice". If "choices" are
determined by existing conditions (how else could an
event be determined, or "decided"?), and the feeling
of "free will" was only appended after the
"determination", how could we tell?If I am expressing the doctrine of "free will"
correctly, it would demand that for a given set of
circumstances, external conditions, history, anatomy,
neurochemistry, psychology,"soul", a "decision"
could be made in more than one way. "Choices" that
"occur" due to the uncertainty of the position of
subatomic particles, based on Heisenberg's Uncertainty
Principal, are excluded, as they are unknowable by
definition. I find that incomprehensible. Of course
can imagine someone choosing this or that based on a
whim, but it IS BASED ON A WHIM, and that whim is
determined at the time it practices its whimsy.
Available scientific evidence (psychoanalytic, PET
scanning) points to actions being determined.
PET scanning shows that when one makes the "choice"
of moving a finger, and determines the time of that
choice by noting a number flashing on a screen, that
the neural structures necessary for the movement have
already been activated The brain "already knows" that
the person will "choose" to move his finger, and only
awaits the person to exercise his "free will" to move
or not to move it.Intimately connected with "responsibility" is
"excuse"- a false reason for not fulfilling ones
"responsibility". This concept has the distinction of
having the same meaning as its negation. "That's no
excuse" means "That is an excuse". And the opposite
of "excuse"? The "real" reason, or the "actual" cause
comes to mind, but can a word that means the same as
its negation have an opposite? The New World
Dictionary: Excuse: a real or pretended reason or
explanation. They're both excuses, because what we
demand is blame. We may want to know what makes an
engine misfire, why the planets revolve around the sun,
and what steps are involved in a cell becoming
malignant, but when it involves human behavior we want
to praise or blame. If "responsibility" means
suffering the consequences of one's behavior, then
responsibility can never be avoided. Consequences
follow acts. People must be held accountable for their
acts under the law because we accept the functioning
of "self control". Although this presents
philosophical problems, the exercises of "self control"
appears to influence outcomes, even though whether
that control is exercised or not is determined! So I
think that the law must hold people accountable for
their actions, but its judgement must be tempered by
circumstances.
Violations based on personal gain are possibly the
most clear cut. He robbed the bank to get the money
to buy nice things that he wanted. But when the gain
is not apparent-take the boy in Colorado recently
sentenced to two life terms for killing his parents-the
judgement of the law should be much more circumspect.
Certainly he must be prevented from repeating similar
acts-but does punishment per se serve any purpose? Do
people not kill their parents because it is against
the law? People involved in the trial actually sang a
song mocking the boy's attempts to explain his actions,
which were committed "in a state of" schizophrenia.
"Well, he knew it was wrong, so….."
Posted by coral on November 18, 2000, at 10:36:54
In reply to Free Will,Responsibility, Especially in Depression, posted by jojo on November 17, 2000, at 16:25:34
Could you re-state your position in 25 words or less?
Posted by jojo on November 18, 2000, at 11:57:53
In reply to Re: Free Will,Responsibility, Especially in Depression, posted by coral on November 18, 2000, at 10:36:54
> Could you re-state your position in 25 words
or less?
I found that the classic Freudian position of
Determinism eliminated by intense guilt associated
with my depression. (17 words)
Posted by pullmarine on November 20, 2000, at 2:05:29
In reply to Re: Free Will,Responsibility, Especially in Depression, posted by jojo on November 18, 2000, at 11:57:53
If yes, could you tell me about it?
john
Posted by shar on November 20, 2000, at 11:35:27
In reply to Has anyone here ever gone to a support group?, posted by pullmarine on November 20, 2000, at 2:05:29
> If yes, could you tell me about it?
>
>
> johnI've been to a lot of the A's
Alcoholics Anonymous
Co-dependents Anon
Narcotics Anon
Al-Anon
Smokers AnonMainly in those we talked about our successes or our hard times, people might suggest things, and there was usually a structured opening and closing section. It can be a good place to unload, but a lot of groups do not encourage giving each other advice or suggestions. I've been to both types.
If you want to work the program, you usually get a sponsor who will be your assistant/guide during the time you go thru the 12 steps, and maybe beyond. It's certainly helped a lot of people!!
Shar
Posted by jojo on November 20, 2000, at 17:24:09
In reply to Free Will,Responsibility, Especially in Depression, posted by jojo on November 17, 2000, at 16:25:34
Is guilt not a major problem for people with
clinical depression. No one here seems to have
much of a problem, or interest in, it. I wonder
why it's still a part of the Hamilton Depression
Inventory?
Posted by B Day on November 20, 2000, at 18:08:21
In reply to Re: Free Will,Responsibility, Especially in Depression, posted by jojo on November 20, 2000, at 17:24:09
> Is guilt not a major problem for people with
> clinical depression. No one here seems to have
> much of a problem, or interest in, it. I wonder
> why it's still a part of the Hamilton Depression
> Inventory?Jojo,
I can only speak for myself, but in my case I think I felt more guilt when I didn't understand the nature my depression so well as I do now. I've also tried to apply a number of self-helping therapies which I think have helped lessen feelings I've had of guilt, shame and anxiety.
A part of my healing has been for me to try to better understand differences between parts of my existence I have been and am responsible for and can do something about and the parts I'm not and can't. Learning about my guilt, shame and anxiety more fully has allowed me to let go of some things I held onto that were hurting me.
I realized once that rather than being in control of myself and life, I had forfeited control to the feelings, thoughts and pressures which guilt, shame and anxiety brought with them. Rather than me managing my life, these things managed me. They literally drove my behavior.
The worry caused by guilt, etc. seems to keep me occupied with either the past or future and thus disables me from living in the present. That's bad since the "right here, right now" is ultimately the only thing that we will ever be able to effect for positive change. So, letting go of things like guilt is a regular part of my recovery from depression.
I'm certainly not my best these days, nor am I always successful in doing things that can help me. Letting go of negative driving forces happens many times during some of my days. Sometimes they simply defeat me, but getting to know my demons and learning ways I can take their powers away has helped me considerably. Without these tools I suspect I would be as guilty feeling as anyone ever the Hamilton Inventory was ever intended for.
Yours,
B
Posted by coral on November 20, 2000, at 18:19:43
In reply to Re: Free Will,Responsibility, Especially in Depression, posted by jojo on November 20, 2000, at 17:24:09
Good grief! Speaking only for me, guilt has exacerbated both depressive episodes I've experienced. I didn't make much headway with eliminating it during the first depressive episode - I was glad to have merely survived. During the second episode (I'm on the healing side), I made huge strides in handling guilt and am continuing to do so; which ties in with responsibility, recognizing where my responsibility starts and stops. Concerning free will, that is a hallmark of the human experience, IMHO.
> Is guilt not a major problem for people with
> clinical depression. No one here seems to have
> much of a problem, or interest in, it. I wonder
> why it's still a part of the Hamilton Depression
> Inventory?
Posted by jojo on November 20, 2000, at 22:41:07
In reply to Re: Free Will,Responsibility, Especially in Depression, posted by coral on November 20, 2000, at 18:19:43
Coral and B DAY
We all FEEL that Free Will is essential to
our nature, and I think we should act that way.
I'm suggesting that that feeling of
"freedom" is add on, to explain what we're doing.
How do you handle the guilt if you are able to act
differently (Have free will, but don't? How do
you explain not doing the things you think you
should have been doing, earlier in your depression.
You were "Free", but you were of just "such weak
moral character" that you couldn't do what you
thought you should be doing?I'm suggesting that you were only able to come to
an accommodation with those guilt feelings after
something had changed (your understanding, your
neurotransmitters, your chemistry, your "soul")
and then you gave yourself an explanation of how it
happened. It could be the "correct" explanation,
but maybe the "change" came first, then you either
explained it to yourself and acted differently, or
you acted differently and then explained it to
yourself. But I don't believe that you had a
"choice", either before of after the change.Can you point out the errors in my little essay?
Posted by B Day on November 20, 2000, at 23:27:16
In reply to Re: Free Will,Responsibility, Especially in Depression, posted by jojo on November 20, 2000, at 22:41:07
Jojo,
I don't really consider your discussion to contain any more errors than most of the rest of us impart. Our most common one is that we speak from a subjective point of view and sometimes feel our experience should be that of others when it may not be so.
In example of what you may find a somewhat different experience I would mention that my first dealings with severe guilt, shame and anxiety came many years ago as the result of trauma I experienced. It took a long time for me to learn how to cope with those feelings successfully. Over time, I learned well what I needed to do when those times came. In a way, that behavior has almost seemed to become automatic with me, even when I'm severely depressed.
I have two psychologists and a psychiatrist who have all remarked about and discussed with me my comparatively low levels of guilt, shame and anxiety while depressed. It is not that I don't feel those things, but I am not so adversely affected by them as I might could be. I think this may well be the result of having to tackle those feelings in the way I did so long ago. It was a matter of life and death and maintaining some sanity for myself. I was depressed at that time, but I think it was more related to my trauma than to the sort of more repetitive cycle of depression I've experienced. I guess my experience may be a bit different than some in this regard.
I do feel the the help I've received from a better understanding and the employment of some useful tools has been more effective when my depressive condition has lessened. When it has been very deep, they haven't worked as well and sometimes not at all.
Depression has indeed made me feel its prisoner at times. I don't ascribe the effectiveness of my self therapy as any form of rationalization, but rather things which can help under certain circumstances. Those things and a few others used to help me maintain normality and balance in my life by themselves. As I've gotten older though I'm afraid my times of depression have grown more severe. Now I'm trying to get a little help from medication so that I am once again able to help myself.
As for what regrettable things I may have done during an episode of depression I feel that I can only try to live responsibly in the present with an eye on the future and to make amends where I'm able and need to for whatever damage I may have caused somehow. Beyond that, there is little I can do about the past except possibly learn from it and try to avoid the mistakes I've made.
B
--------------------------
> Coral and B DAY
>
> We all FEEL that Free Will is essential to
> our nature, and I think we should act that way.
> I'm suggesting that that feeling of
> "freedom" is add on, to explain what we're doing.
> How do you handle the guilt if you are able to act
> differently (Have free will, but don't? How do
> you explain not doing the things you think you
> should have been doing, earlier in your depression.
> You were "Free", but you were of just "such weak
> moral character" that you couldn't do what you
> thought you should be doing?
>
> I'm suggesting that you were only able to come to
> an accommodation with those guilt feelings after
> something had changed (your understanding, your
> neurotransmitters, your chemistry, your "soul")
> and then you gave yourself an explanation of how it
> happened. It could be the "correct" explanation,
> but maybe the "change" came first, then you either
> explained it to yourself and acted differently, or
> you acted differently and then explained it to
> yourself. But I don't believe that you had a
> "choice", either before of after the change.
>
> Can you point out the errors in my little essay?
Posted by coral on November 21, 2000, at 8:53:15
In reply to Re: Free Will,Responsibility, Especially in Depression, posted by jojo on November 20, 2000, at 22:41:07
Dear Jojo,
If free will isn't an essential element to our natures, how could we act that way? Guilt is a very tricky emotion. For me, legitimate guilt happens when I choose to do something that isn't in the best interest of others and myself. How can I do that? Morally weak? Maybe... I smoke, and it's harmful habit. My addiction is stronger than my willingness to tackle it at this moment. But, I have quit before and will continue to quit, as long as it takes. If I believed in determinism, I'd simply accept the smoking as determined until such point that it wasn't. BTW, who's doing all this determinism??
Coral
Posted by jojo on November 21, 2000, at 19:19:31
In reply to Re: Free Will,Responsibility, Especially in Depression, posted by coral on November 21, 2000, at 8:53:15
> Dear Jojo,
>
> If free will isn't an essential element to our
natures, how could we act that way? Guilt is a
very tricky emotion. For me, legitimate guilt
happens when I choose to do something that isn't
in the best interest of others and myself. How
can I do that? Morally weak? Maybe... I smoke,
and it's harmful habit. My addiction is stronger
than my willingness to tackle it at this moment.
But, I have quit before and will continue to quit,
as long as it takes. If I believed in determinism
I'd simply accept the smoking as determined until
such point that it wasn't. BTW, who's doing all
this determinism??
>
> Coral
Thanks for your response, CoralI'm not saying anything Earth-shattering here.
Many others have said it before, including Freud,
although I don't know if that's an endorsement or
a liability here. I'm only saying that everything
that happens occurs according to the conditions
immediately preceding its happening. Your being
ready to "make the effort" to quite smoking is
part of those conditions. If the "conditions" were
not such that your effort would be successful,
then you wouldn't be able to succeed. No one
determines it, just as no one determines the angle
that a billiard ball will move when hit by the cue
ball. The player hits the cue as best he can, but
the ball has no "choice" about which way to move.
I think the main difference between other higher
mammals and humans is that we have to tell
ourselves a story of why this is happening. In
the PET scanning experiments, the area of the
brain which will move the finger is
already activated BEFORE the person "decides" to
move his finger. To me, this indicates that the
"decision" has already been made BEFORE "WE" MAKE
THE DECISION (that is, the finger is going to move,
but that little person that we imagine lives
inside our heads, must have an explanation for it,
so he thinks, "I'm going to move my finger now."
There is no shame in not having "free will". We
do the best that we can, but how hard we try, and
whether we will be successful, depends on existing
conditions. This is no "excuse", whatever that
means, for not trying. Trying, and its ability to
succeed, are part of the way it works."For me, legitimate guilt happens when I choose to
do something that isn't in the best interest of
others and myself. How can I do that? Morally
weak? Maybe..."I don't believe that it is "moral weakness", or
"lack of character". I do believe that in every
case, you did the best that you could. But if you
COULD have "chosen, using your "free will", how
else do you explain your actions, or lack of them?
Posted by pullmarine on November 21, 2000, at 20:00:37
In reply to Re: Free Will,Responsibility, Especially in Depres, posted by B Day on November 20, 2000, at 23:27:16
R. W. Emmerson said (approximate quote): in life you can choose between seeking truth and repose. Choose what you will, you can never have both.
I disagree with this statement. My personal experience and observations both indicate that people are born into those categories, and do not choose them. I think this is true of many things.
Yet, despite this belief in determinism, I live my life as though everyone, including myself, has free will. I hold myself and other accountable. I expect people to have a certain level of self control, and demand that of myself. I think the biggest step forward for me was when my cousin (a shrink at NIMH) said my recovery depended largely on myself.
Nonetheless, I do seem to have severe crises every four years (it's like clockwork), so I'm expecting one in 3 years and six months (while hoping it won't come this time).
With age these existential and spiritual crises seem to get more severe, but I must admit that with each one that I survive, I grow stronger, wiser, and I come out different (which I believe is a natural reaction to any painful event).
Ultimatly, I know that one of these crises will most probably kill me. Such is life. If what I go through is indeed an illness (which i refute), why so much fuss about the resulting mortality? If it is indeed an illness, why not accept the resulting mortality with the same attitude one has for death resulting from any other illness (cancer, or AIDS, or influenza)? I would find it inacceptable to force treatment on a cancer or aids patient, and the day I choose that my time has come, I pray to god that no one will interfere with the natural course of events.
john
Posted by jojo on November 21, 2000, at 21:17:14
In reply to I don't believe in free will, but...., posted by pullmarine on November 21, 2000, at 20:00:37
>R. W. Emmerson said (approximate quote): in life
you can choose between seeking truth and repose.
Choose what you will, you can never have both.Note from jojo: Maybe he meant that you can seek
or not. You might just "repose" (sleep), but you
can't both seek and not seek.>
> I disagree with this statement. My personal
experience and observations both indicate that
people are born into those categories, and do not
choose them. I think this is true of many things.
>
> Yet, despite this belief in determinism, I live
my life as though everyone, including myself, has
free will. I hold myself and other accountable. I
expect people to have a certain level of self
control, and demand that of myself. I think the
biggest step forward for me was when my cousin
(a shrink at NIMH) said my recovery depended
largely on myself.
>
> Nonetheless, I do seem to have severe crises
every four years (it's like clockwork), so I'm
expecting one in 3 years and six months (while
hoping it won't come this time).
>
> With age these existential and spiritual crises
seem to get more severe, but I must admit that
with each one that I survive, I grow stronger,
wiser, and I come out different (which I believe
is a natural reaction to any painful event).
>
> Ultimatly, I know that one of these crises will
most probably kill me. Such is life. If what I go
through is indeed an illness (which i refute), why
so much fuss about the resulting mortality? If it
is indeed an illness, why not accept the resulting
mortality with the same attitude one has for death
resulting from any other illness (cancer, or AIDS,
or influenza)? I would find it inacceptable to
force treatment on a cancer or aids patient, and
the day I choose that my time has come, I pray to
god that no one will interfere with the natural
course of events.
>
> john
Hi john,You said "If what I go through is indeed an
illness (which i refute), why so much fuss about
the resulting mortality? If it is indeed an
illness, why not accept the resulting
mortality with the same attitude one has for death
resulting from any other illness
(cancer, or AIDS, or influenza)? I would find it
inacceptable to force treatment on a cancer or
aids patient, and the day I choose that my time
has come, I pray to god that no one will interfere with the natural course
of events."You seem pretty intent on dying of this
non-illness (and who is making "a fuss"?)
If it's not an illness, how do you
explain it. If it is an illness, and you expect
it to reappear, someone else might try to prevent
it with psychotropic drugs. Of course, that's
your choice. I do not agree that anyone should
force treatment, certainly not for what you see
as an untreatable condition. But you also said:"I must admit that with each one that I survive,
I grow stronger, wiser..."If you do, indeed, become stronger, that fatal
crisis is going to have to be a hell of a lot
stronger than the previous ones.You also said: "My personal
experience and observations both indicate that
people are born into those categories, and do not
choose them."If you live your life as though you had free will,
you might be able to "choose" to change it.
I believe that whether you are ABLE to change
it or not will depend on conditions (internal and
external) that exist at the time you make your move,
but no one ever said that effort is always useless.Someone said "you can probably choose what you do,
but you can't choose what you choose". So maybe
you can choose some other ending.
This is the end of the thread.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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