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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by josh on September 13, 2000, at 4:56:31
Hello out there, I wanted to write to express frustration with the current situation in my life. I am 33 years old, and have been depressed for a large portion of my life; mostly self-defeatist, I mute my anxiety by not responding to threatening situations or possible opportunities which might improve my life. I become inert. I also have chronic pain in several parts of my body, and am currently out of work, rapidly running out of money. Don't know what kind of work to do because every job I have had within the past 7 years has produced pain.
I have been on anti-depressant medications before, but since having educated myself more, am VERY resistant to taking them. There are huge existential implications in taking a pill to "make you better."
Is there anyone out there in the teeming masses who disagrees with the medical model of depression like me?
Here are some points I'd like to illustrate.
1) There is a psychological theory known as "state dependent memory," which essentially asserts that if you learn something in one state of mind, or in this case under the influence of medication, you need to remain or return to that state to remember what you've learned. So, wouldn't any gains made under the influence of anti-depressants be negated when off the medication? Does this mean we have to be on medication for the rest of our lives?
2)Despite all the scientific and medical rhetoric about the brain, there is a body of evidence which suggests these "professionals" know very little about the brain, and how long-term use of anti-depressants, specifically SSRI's, affect it. When reading literature about Wellbutrin, for instance, they're not even sure how it works! Could it be these drugs permanently affect the brain making one MORE depressed after persistent use?
3) Kierkegaard (I am paraphrasing) said that anxiety is one of the greatest educational tools a person can have. Why chemically lobotomize oneself and potentially truncate the process of becoming self-aware and fully actualized as a human being?Also, I have a physician who is treating me for PHYSICAL pain who insists I go on anti-depressant medication or find another doctor. Aside from him hardly knowing me (he's met me twice), and it being ethically objectionable, IS THIS LEGAL?
Well, it's late, and these are just a few of these concerns I have pondered. In any case, can someone provide some feedback about what I can do? I have been in and out of therapy since I was 9, and simply talking about it doesn't do any good. Is there a different kind of therapy I can try? Support groups? While I am constantly reading about depression and its various mechanisms and(in theory) know what I need to do to help myself, I just can't. Or don't? Is it because I don't want to? Any response is valued, believe me. I look forward to hearing from you.
Josh
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Posted by Cindy W on September 13, 2000, at 8:56:32
In reply to Treating Depression without Medication, posted by josh on September 13, 2000, at 4:56:31
> Hello out there, I wanted to write to express frustration with the current situation in my life. I am 33 years old, and have been depressed for a large portion of my life; mostly self-defeatist, I mute my anxiety by not responding to threatening situations or possible opportunities which might improve my life. I become inert. I also have chronic pain in several parts of my body, and am currently out of work, rapidly running out of money. Don't know what kind of work to do because every job I have had within the past 7 years has produced pain.
> I have been on anti-depressant medications before, but since having educated myself more, am VERY resistant to taking them. There are huge existential implications in taking a pill to "make you better."
> Is there anyone out there in the teeming masses who disagrees with the medical model of depression like me?
> Here are some points I'd like to illustrate.
> 1) There is a psychological theory known as "state dependent memory," which essentially asserts that if you learn something in one state of mind, or in this case under the influence of medication, you need to remain or return to that state to remember what you've learned. So, wouldn't any gains made under the influence of anti-depressants be negated when off the medication? Does this mean we have to be on medication for the rest of our lives?
> 2)Despite all the scientific and medical rhetoric about the brain, there is a body of evidence which suggests these "professionals" know very little about the brain, and how long-term use of anti-depressants, specifically SSRI's, affect it. When reading literature about Wellbutrin, for instance, they're not even sure how it works! Could it be these drugs permanently affect the brain making one MORE depressed after persistent use?
> 3) Kierkegaard (I am paraphrasing) said that anxiety is one of the greatest educational tools a person can have. Why chemically lobotomize oneself and potentially truncate the process of becoming self-aware and fully actualized as a human being?
>
> Also, I have a physician who is treating me for PHYSICAL pain who insists I go on anti-depressant medication or find another doctor. Aside from him hardly knowing me (he's met me twice), and it being ethically objectionable, IS THIS LEGAL?
>
> Well, it's late, and these are just a few of these concerns I have pondered. In any case, can someone provide some feedback about what I can do? I have been in and out of therapy since I was 9, and simply talking about it doesn't do any good. Is there a different kind of therapy I can try? Support groups? While I am constantly reading about depression and its various mechanisms and(in theory) know what I need to do to help myself, I just can't. Or don't? Is it because I don't want to? Any response is valued, believe me. I look forward to hearing from you.
>
> Josh
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Josh, have you tried a therapist who's supportive and who uses cognitive behavior therapy? You can also use self-help if you read stuff by Aaron Beck or David Burns. This is a non-medical approach which has been shown in research to be as effective as medication for some medication (although the optimal combination for people who have long-standing and/or severe depression combines both medication and cognitive behavior therapy). Hope this helps!--Cindy W (on Effexor-XR, in therapy, and reading as fast as I can!!)
Posted by stjames on September 19, 2000, at 11:50:45
In reply to Treating Depression without Medication, posted by josh on September 13, 2000, at 4:56:31
> 1) There is a psychological theory known as "state dependent memory," which essentially asserts that if you learn something in one state of mind, or in this case under the influence of medication, you need to remain or return to that state to remember what you've learned. So, wouldn't any gains made under the influence of anti-depressants be negated when off the medication? Does this mean we have to be on medication for the rest of our lives?James here.....
From my experiance with AD's this is not true. Also AD's correct mood to normal.
> 2)Despite all the scientific and medical rhetoric about the brain, there is a body of evidence which suggests these "professionals" know very little about the brain, and how long-term use of anti-depressants, specifically SSRI's, affect it. When reading literature about Wellbutrin, for instance, they're not even sure how it works! Could it be these drugs permanently affect the brain making one MORE depressed after persistent use?
My 15 yrs of experience on AD's indicates they don't make depression worse.
> 3) Kierkegaard (I am paraphrasing) said that anxiety is one of the greatest educational tools a person can have. Why chemically lobotomize oneself and potentially truncate the process of becoming self-aware and fully actualized as a human being?
Kierkegaard was talking about "normal" anxiety, the kind that happens in normal situations and is
useful in moving us forward. Panic attacks and excessive anxiety are not educational tools !
>
> Also, I have a physician who is treating me for PHYSICAL pain who insists I go on anti-depressant medication or find another doctor. Aside from him hardly knowing me (he's met me twice), and it being ethically objectionable, IS THIS LEGAL?
>
It is well reported that constant physical pain will cause depression. Can't comment on legality, but what is the harm in trying something that might work and you can stop at any time ?
james
Posted by josh on September 19, 2000, at 14:24:03
In reply to Re: Treating Depression without Medication, posted by stjames on September 19, 2000, at 11:50:45
James--thanks for your feedback, although I wanted to clarify a few things:
When you say, "AD's correct mood to normal," what does that mean? What exactly IS normal? I could say my depression is a "normal" reaction to a very unfortunate situation, and if I can take steps to remedy that situation without antidepressants, I will have made much more lasting changes in my behavior and/or cognition. Many studies have shown that cognitive therapy is equally, if not more effective than AD's.
When I refer to AD's "making depression worse," I do not mean while a person is on them. It is when one goes off medication after prolonged use I am concerned about. Perhaps AD's, specifically SSRI's and the newer AD's, which have seemingly not been subjected to any extensive longitudinal testing, permanently alter one's brain chemistry for the worse, i.e. making the brain dependent on these sorts of drugs.
Also, you did not reveal your profession. Are you a psychiatrist, G.P. or some other medical professional? I just what want to know where your perspective is coming from. Again, thanks for the feedback, and I would like to continue any discourse on the matter...
Sincerely,
Josh
Posted by stjames on September 19, 2000, at 15:33:47
In reply to Re: Treating Depression without Medication, posted by josh on September 19, 2000, at 14:24:03
>
> When you say, "AD's correct mood to normal," what does that mean? What exactly IS normal? I could say my depression is a "normal" reaction to a very unfortunate situation, and if I can take steps to remedy that situation without antidepressants, I will have made much more lasting changes in my behavior and/or cognition. Many studies have shown that cognitive therapy is equally, if not more effective than AD's.James here.....
The depression spoken of here is clilical depression, generally, not situational depression, as you speak of. AD's are not
very effective in situational depression. With clinical depression one is depressed despite positive surroundings and for an extended time.
Therefore clinical depression is not a normal reaction and "normal" would be defined as having
approprate reactions to postive surroundings.
>
> When I refer to AD's "making depression worse," I do not mean while a person is on them. It is when one goes off medication after prolonged use I am concerned about. Perhaps AD's, specifically SSRI's and the newer AD's, which have seemingly not been subjected to any extensive longitudinal testing, permanently alter one's brain chemistry for the worse, i.e. making the brain dependent on these sorts of drugs.James here....
This has not been my experience. Given that clinical depression in cronic in nature, that is to say life long, and is a medical problem stoping the meds means the depression comes back.
No one has ever said AD's are a cure. They are very effective in controling clinical depression.
>
> Also, you did not reveal your profession. Are you a psychiatrist, G.P. or some other medical professional? I just what want to know where your perspective is coming from. Again, thanks for the feedback, and I would like to continue any discourse on the matter...Reveal ? I think this indicates I am hiding something ? Far from it ! i have been on this list
for 2 yrs. If you were not new you would of come across the fact I am a network admin person. Also few of us here are professional med people. Pls reread the current thread " I am not an expert" on the babble page.
Posted by quilter on September 20, 2000, at 0:10:28
In reply to Re: Treating Depression without Medication, posted by stjames on September 19, 2000, at 15:33:47
Josh, my recent researrch on pain has shown that ADs are commonly prescribed for chronic pain. They may be helpful and are not addictive. I have fibromyalgia, and suspect that it might be a part of your pain problem. Try reading about it to see if it applies to you.
Quilter
Posted by josh on September 22, 2000, at 15:29:45
In reply to Re: Treating Depression without Medication, posted by stjames on September 19, 2000, at 15:33:47
> Reveal ? I think this indicates I am hiding something ? Far from it ! i have been on this list
> for 2 yrs. If you were not new you would of come across the fact I am a network admin person. Also few of us here are professional med people. Pls reread the current thread " I am not an expert" on the babble page.Hi James. I did not mean to imply you were hiding something. Since I AM new on this website, I was not aware of the capacity in which you functioned.
Any suggestions on finding a good doctor, one who doesn't insist on my use of AD's? I feel like no one is on my side--not the insurance company or my doctor. Also, I don't want to go through the yellow pages and pick a doctor at random. I am very disheartened.
take care,
josh
Posted by shellie on September 22, 2000, at 19:12:59
In reply to Re: Treating Depression without Medication, posted by josh on September 22, 2000, at 15:29:45
Josh, I think Cindy offered a good idea. Why not look for a clinical psychologist (or social worker) that uses cognitive therapy. See if that helps you with your depression. (That is if your insurance allows it). If you don't go to an MD, you won't spend a lot of time disagreeing about anti-depressants. shellie
Posted by emily on September 24, 2000, at 14:42:45
In reply to Re: Treating Depression without Medication » josh, posted by shellie on September 22, 2000, at 19:12:59
Hi, Josh. I admire your determination to heal yourself naturally, and to look for integrity in your healing. I just started antidepressants after spending most of my life being depressed. I have had similar concerns to yours and have tried a number of alternatives, but I have continued to cycle in and out. The downs had gotten so bad that I was consistently suicidal, so I decided to try medication after all--for me, I would rather be medicated than dead. But I do hope to go off eventually...
That said, here is some feedback from my own experience and research. (I work at a health food store, so I gather some information through the people I run into, the reading I've done on my own, and of course personal experience.) Here are some ideas:
exercise--regular and aerobic
nutrition--whole grains, fruit and vegetables, variety--try to stick with organic, try to avoid caffeine, sugar, artificial ingredients... There is a lot of info out there about nutrition. Have you thought of seeing a nutritionist? While it might not be the cause of your depression, it could help support your healing.
supplements--vitamins, minerals--again, you might want to see a nutritionist.
get a pet (see thread on pets above)
stress reduction--massage, aromatherapy, meditation, prayer--whatever makes sense for you
surround yourself with kind and loving people
make plans and spend time with these people
acupuncture
herbal support--look for a reputable herbalist or naturopathic doctor
and of course, finding a support team that respects your wishes and supports your healing. sounds like you want to explore cognitive therapy, and that you're not happy with your MD? (Although I also know people with fibromyalgia and chronic pain who have been helped by ADs.) If you want to find an MD or therapist with more alternative ideas, you might check your local health food store--see if the people who work there have heard of anyone. Or try a low-force chiropractor, who might be able to recommend you to a sympathetic psychiatrist or general practitioner.Sorry if this info is too much. Hope it is helpful.
As James said, I also believe that there can be a lot of healing value in ADs, but I sympathize with your desire to try alternatives.
Good luck to you!
Emily
Posted by zur on October 20, 2003, at 10:59:18
In reply to Re: Treating Depression without Medication, posted by Cindy W on September 13, 2000, at 8:56:32
Hi Josh. My mom suffers from cronic pain and depression, and she seems to find yoga very helpful. I too suffer from clinical depression, and hope to be off my medication soon. It really helps me to spend a lot of time outside and to get lots of excersice. Its so hard to get myself to do it, but it really helps. I also have cats, which lift my spirt and bring me comfort on those days were I can't even get out of bed. I also recomend eatting well balanced meals, and avoiding processed sugar, that helps me a little.
I'm in a similar situation as you, and feel that there must be a better way to treat my depression. So good luck to the both of us!
Posted by nickm on October 24, 2003, at 9:42:55
In reply to Treating Depression without Medication, posted by josh on September 13, 2000, at 4:56:31
Hi, Josh. I find your post very thought provoking. I believe in Dr. Glennmullen's assertions in his book, that psychotherapies, changes in life style, exercise, yoga, meditation, etc., are just as likely to improve a depressive condition as medications. I also agree that no one really knows if upping serotonin (or other receptors) levels in the brain is healthy, and that indeed doing it may be dangerous. No one has proven the biochemical theory connecting to depression, and what was measured in the brain was not the real serotonin but a cousin of it, and there's no direct correlation between that cousin and depression. No one has come up with a blood or urine test to demonstrate biochemical imbalances. As I read through the Psycho Babble main board, I see most posters chasing the "ideal" medication, dropping off meds, and searching for others when the side effects become uncontrollable. Eventually, all try cocktails of drugs with many side-effects. I'm trying to convince my wife that alternative treatments, and psychotherapy would do better for her chronic and major depression (I really think she started with general anxiety syndrome and as she was given meds through the years, these have had paradoxical side effects on her thus making her depression worse).
Anyway, thank you for your post. Just wanted to share with you that I agree with what you say, but that the road to conquering depression - in spite of all kinds of treatments - is a long, painful one and that meds only quiet down symptoms for a few weeks or months...and then, one starts all over again. Catch 22.
Better to learn what it is that is causing the anxiety, and what it is it is trying to tell us.
Nickm
This is the end of the thread.
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