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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Reggie BoStar on April 8, 2009, at 21:32:39
Hi Everyone,
Even though I've posted many times in these forums, I've never asked a question quite like this one before.I hope I'm not violating any guidelines with respect to postings on the topic of suicide. If I am doing something wrong, please let me know and accept my profuse apologies.
On two occasions, once in the family many years ago and once very recently, I've been told by a suicide survivor that he/she feels the suicide was an act of revenge.
(Obviously by "suicide survivor" I mean a close relative or friend of a suicide victim, not the survivor of a suicide attempt that failed).
This seems wrongheaded to me, enough so that I get really upset when this person talks like this.
But then I don't know much about why different people commit suicide. I know that in my own case the rehearsals were preceded by many years of painful depression and alcoholism. However it was all about me - certainly not an attempt to punish someone else by killing myself.
What's the verdict on this? I can't find any concise explanations on the web. That's not to say there aren't any of course. I just can't find them.
Do the pdocs these days feel that suicide can be an act of revenge? If not, what should be said (if anything) to the survivor when he/she makes these claims?
I figure I'll settle with just telling the person that such comments are very disturbing to me and I would rather not hear them. I'll try to leave it at that.
That would take care of me. But what about the suicide survivor? Would it be OK to just tell the person about a website that deals with suicide survival? Those sites often have online support groups and contacts for local meetups of survivors. Should I suggest that this person at least look at such information?
Once again I apologize if this type of discussion about suicide is inappropriate here. I certainly don't want to upset anyone.
Thanks to all for your time (and hello PhillipA if you're reading this!!!)
Reggie BoStar
Posted by raisinb on April 8, 2009, at 21:56:46
In reply to Can suicide be an act of revenge?, posted by Reggie BoStar on April 8, 2009, at 21:32:39
Hi Reggie--
I don't think it's inappropriate--maybe it would be good to post a "trigger" warning in the subject line--but the deputies can provide more information than I.People in the wake of tragic loss often experience anger. When suicide's involved, it's natural to feel anger at the loved one.
That being said, as someone who's been suicidal, I seriously doubt suicide is ever truly about someone else. It is a decision made for oneself when life truly becomes unbearable and not worth living. I passionately believe that though it's tragic, suicide is a right--we all own our own lives (unless, perhaps, there are children involved) and nobody who has not had the experience of being an agonizing, depressed self has the right to label suicide "selfish" or "an act of revenge" unless there is clearer evidence involved.
That's my .02 anyway.
Posted by Tabitha on April 9, 2009, at 0:39:43
In reply to Re: Can suicide be an act of revenge? » Reggie BoStar, posted by raisinb on April 8, 2009, at 21:56:46
I can see how it could be taken that way. Suicide does leave a huge burden of pain, guilt, and confusion on the survivors. It might seem to them as though that burden is part of the intended consequence.
But I can't fathom that a desire for revenge could ever be enough motivation for suicide. The sacrifice is too great. One person gets some pain, guilt, and confusion while the other loses their entire life. Who loses? The suicide. So not an effective revenge strategy at all.
I personally believe suicide is first and foremost about escaping pain that seems unendurable and overwhelms the person's coping mechanisms at the time.
Posted by B2chica on April 9, 2009, at 9:01:51
In reply to Re: Can suicide be an act of revenge?, posted by Tabitha on April 9, 2009, at 0:39:43
i think it's a very interesting question.
first i would be upset if a 'survivor' said that. HOWEVER, they may still be dealing with a lot of denial or anger toward the suicide.
that kind of death just leaves SO many unanswered questions that it's harder for people to grasp than other ways of dying.
so with that i think that person should be approached with some tact.you say the person that committed suicide was dealing with depression for years. then it just might...(and i say 'might) help to teach that person about depression and how it can affect a person. but my guess is this person just isn't ready to hear any of it...and they may never be. maybe its' easier to pin a "bad person" label on the person who died than it is to deal with the issues it brings up.
There's usually a lot of guilt by the survivors...i personally attest to that.just because of how many times i've been to the 'brink', i just cant grasp how anyone (feeling fine but angry at someone) would do it. i'm not saying it can't or hasn't happened. but my guess would be that 99.999% would NOT be like that. i mean you're taking your LIFE...there are no 'take backs'. So anyone who commits suicide IS dealing with some type of mental illness....(in my eyes) period.
i guess to get back to that person. i think you should show them that such an assumption is most likely wrong. if you think they would be receptive to learning about depression, give them websites to go to, or talk personal experience.
and if they are resistant (and even if their not) say to them just what you stated. that such a comment is disturbing and you would rather not hear that.i just know that every attempt and every completion is different. even with me sometimes the power, and drive behind wanting to die can have slightly different origins.
but NEVER has death been a "revenge" possibility, and to me that thought is absurd.
but i guess that because i usually feel just the opposite. that i have so much pain inside that i'm effecting negatively everyone around me so to 'save them' from the pain i must 'leave'.... complete opposite of revenge.hth
b2.
Posted by sassyfrancesca on April 9, 2009, at 9:43:51
In reply to Can suicide be an act of revenge?, posted by Reggie BoStar on April 8, 2009, at 21:32:39
We have no way of knowing why a person commits suicide. Of course, it could be an act of revenge; such as the thinking that.....they will be sorry when i am gone....I will show them, etc., etc....
Suicide can be an act to punish others.
Posted by SLS on April 9, 2009, at 11:31:10
In reply to Can suicide be an act of revenge?, posted by Reggie BoStar on April 8, 2009, at 21:32:39
Attempting suicide can be an act of anger. I think revenge can be a contributory factor in producing such anger. For young people in particular who may be vulnerable to acts of impulse, they may indeed feel that their suicide would "serve everyone right."
- Scott
Posted by Reggie BoStar on April 9, 2009, at 17:59:51
In reply to Re: Can suicide be an act of revenge?, posted by B2chica on April 9, 2009, at 9:01:51
Thanks B2,
Lots of good insight in your response.Complicating the situation is that the suicide was an alcoholic, at rock-bottom when he took his life.
I am a recovering alcoholic, so I have a little background knowledge on how the disease can bring on suicidal ideation when things are at their worst. I never got further than a rehearsal but even that was pretty bad.
You're right, I have to be very careful about this person's feelings, for whatever reason the suicide ended his life. It's just that knowing what I know about alcoholism introduces a large amount of insanity to the equation. In the presence of such insanity, even a direct expression of revenge is suspect. It's something the suicide would never have thought of doing if his thinking hadn't been so convoluted by alcohol.
Basically it's the insanity defense, and with alcohol present I think it's a good one. I seriously doubt he could have been entertaining deliberate thoughts of revenge.
So there I am. I have a very good reason to believe that it wasn't an act of vengeance. Thus when I hear the survivor sound off it's very difficult for me to hold my silence on the matter.
Maybe I should say something in a comforting tone, like "he was out of his mind drunk and would never do such a thing to you sober."
I honestly believe this is the truth. But would saying it hurt or help?
Until I can answer that question, "silence is golden".
I hope.
Reggie
Posted by Reggie BoStar on April 9, 2009, at 18:03:55
In reply to Can suicide be an act of revenge?, posted by Reggie BoStar on April 8, 2009, at 21:32:39
Hi Everyone,
Thanks to all for those great responses. There were some different sentiments here and there, but one thing they all share is that they were very considerate.I appreciate that.
Take care,
Reggie BoStar
Posted by rskontos on April 9, 2009, at 18:21:23
In reply to Re: Can suicide be an act of revenge? » B2chica, posted by Reggie BoStar on April 9, 2009, at 17:59:51
..So there I am. I have a very good reason to believe that it wasn't an act of vengeance. Thus when I hear the survivor sound off it's very difficult for me to hold my silence on the matter.
Man I often bite my tongue under certain circumstances.
>>Maybe I should say something in a comforting tone, like "he was out of his mind drunk and would never do such a thing to you sober."
I honestly believe this is the truth. But would saying it hurt or help?>>>>>
I don't think any answer is required unless you do want to speak your feelings on the matter. But it isn't necessary.
>>>Until I can answer that question, "silence is golden".>>>
Yes it is and if you feel strongly about trying to offer solace in terms of groups they could join to help the grieving process then do so. But if it is just a "discussion" of views don't express yours unless you really want to discuss it and how you feel. Again it probably isn't necessary.
I would say I don't think it is necessarily revenge except for like sassy and others said, a younger person feeling angry.
For me, the times it has been strictly due to hopelessness. It was actually the thought of my children that made me stop.
rsk
Posted by Phillipa on April 9, 2009, at 21:34:26
In reply to Re: Can suicide be an act of revenge?, posted by rskontos on April 9, 2009, at 18:21:23
Lots of different reasons one that life will get better. Love Phillipa
Posted by Kath on April 10, 2009, at 16:31:21
In reply to Can suicide be an act of revenge?, posted by Reggie BoStar on April 8, 2009, at 21:32:39
Was at a Mental Health Week Awareness event a few days ago.
The main speaker was Bill MacPhee, who has schizophrenia & is also the founder & CEO of Schizophrenia Magazine, which is well-known in Canada (he's Canadian) & the States. I believe it's found in many psychiatric office waiting rooms.
He was speaking about when he was psychotic, before meds. He was being told that he must 'prove' himself to God. He didn't know how, but it came to him to go onto a large highway & walk in the middle of the road towards the oncoming traffic. He said car brakes were screeching, trucks were swerving to avoid him, etc. Then he decided to walk off the road.
His story went on, but first, he pointed out that IF he had been killed, it would have been deemed a suicide. Right? What else would anyone identify it as??
He said that he tells this story because for the families of suicide victims, it gives them another way of thinking about things. In his case, although it would certainly have looked like a suicide, he said he had absolutely NO wish to die. It had nothing to do with that at all.Just wanted to share that.
Kath
This is the end of the thread.
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