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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 8 of 8. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Daisym on September 27, 2008, at 23:50:57
Today I was in a study group with Allen Schore. He is a psychotherapist who has written and researched extensively about implicit processing during therapy and the power of the right brain. I really liked how he talked about two things: 1) He talked about transference as an expectation of either rejection/withdrawal or aggression. Meaning, we often get triggered completely unconsciously into expecting our therapist to draw back from us or to be angry and shame us because of some communication they have given us, probably without knowing it and we've received it, also without knowing it. He used the example of turning your head away right when someone begins talking. It might have been purely a coincidence but the message to the other person might be taken as I don't think you are important, even if you turned your attention right back to them. He talked about preverbal learning patterns and the need to self-soothe because of the message of rejection. And he talked a lot about the therapist's attachment patterns and how they come into play with clients, especially in their ability to accept and hold the transference.
2) He talked about cognitive processes and how 60% of communication is implicit. He feels that sometimes asking a client "how do you feel?" is shaming because the client may not have words for their feelings -- it is all "preverbal." He wondered if the therapist's own anxiety about not trusting the feelings in the room is what creates the need for "confirmation with words." He spoke about misattunement that happens when a client is in a feeling state (right brain) and the therapist goes into the cognitive state (left brain) and essentially abandons the client to hold all the feelings (probably the therapist's too) because the therapist is offering an interpretation instead of just being with what is happening.
So much of what I heard today was confirmation of what I've been learning over the past few years. Young children simply are preverbal so we must pay attention to their body and play messages. But I heard a lot today that sounded like my own therapy and it makes me want to trust the process - it seems that we are on the right track. It was scary to think about the somatic introjections - can he really feel what I feel? I don't want to cause him pain - although Schore is adamant that it is necessary for healing - this shared containment that helps repressed feelings come up and out because you can now handle these feelings (even when you think you can't.)
Watching a number of the therapists in the room today, I couldn't help thinking (again), "they should all have to read Babble." I'm just amazed at what they don't seem to understand.
Posted by lucie lu on September 28, 2008, at 0:36:46
In reply to Babble as a Teaching Tool, posted by Daisym on September 27, 2008, at 23:50:57
Posted by muffled on September 28, 2008, at 0:58:13
In reply to Babble as a Teaching Tool, posted by Daisym on September 27, 2008, at 23:50:57
Interesting daisy.
Good that you feel confirmed about your therapy :)
Funny that you say t's should read babble, I have had same thot. Which is why I did tell old T bout it, so mebbe she could learn.
Funny thing is my new T.....she seems to already know alot of the funny little things T's oughtta know. Its kinda freaky.
Mebbe SHE reads babble!Ack!
I really ought to just ask her how she knows what she knows.
But i dunno her history particularly, and don't want to.
Just kinda wonder how she knows....
Take care,
good to see you posting.
M
Posted by Cal on September 28, 2008, at 9:37:06
In reply to Babble as a Teaching Tool, posted by Daisym on September 27, 2008, at 23:50:57
> Today I was in a study group with Allen Schore. He is a psychotherapist who has written and researched extensively about implicit processing during therapy and the power of the right brain. I really liked how he talked about two things: 1) He talked about transference as an expectation of either rejection/withdrawal or aggression. Meaning, we often get triggered completely unconsciously into expecting our therapist to draw back from us or to be angry and shame us because of some communication they have given us, probably without knowing it and we've received it, also without knowing it. He used the example of turning your head away right when someone begins talking. It might have been purely a coincidence but the message to the other person might be taken as I don't think you are important, even if you turned your attention right back to them. He talked about preverbal learning patterns and the need to self-soothe because of the message of rejection. And he talked a lot about the therapist's attachment patterns and how they come into play with clients, especially in their ability to accept and hold the transference.
>
> 2) He talked about cognitive processes and how 60% of communication is implicit. He feels that sometimes asking a client "how do you feel?" is shaming because the client may not have words for their feelings -- it is all "preverbal." He wondered if the therapist's own anxiety about not trusting the feelings in the room is what creates the need for "confirmation with words." He spoke about misattunement that happens when a client is in a feeling state (right brain) and the therapist goes into the cognitive state (left brain) and essentially abandons the client to hold all the feelings (probably the therapist's too) because the therapist is offering an interpretation instead of just being with what is happening.
>
> So much of what I heard today was confirmation of what I've been learning over the past few years. Young children simply are preverbal so we must pay attention to their body and play messages. But I heard a lot today that sounded like my own therapy and it makes me want to trust the process - it seems that we are on the right track. It was scary to think about the somatic introjections - can he really feel what I feel? I don't want to cause him pain - although Schore is adamant that it is necessary for healing - this shared containment that helps repressed feelings come up and out because you can now handle these feelings (even when you think you can't.)
>
> Watching a number of the therapists in the room today, I couldn't help thinking (again), "they should all have to read Babble." I'm just amazed at what they don't seem to understand.
Thanks for sharing this!
Posted by Dinah on September 28, 2008, at 13:17:55
In reply to Babble as a Teaching Tool, posted by Daisym on September 27, 2008, at 23:50:57
I'd never want my therapist to read Babble, but over time I've shared enough of Babble with him that he probably feels like he has. Better yet, I interpret for him when needed.
It's funny. When I first started sharing Babble with him, I think he really was surprised and startled at therapy from a client's point of view. But now he answers easily with a good understanding.
I've really enjoyed the information I've read lately on how infants aren't really little blank slates ready to be imprinted. And how the interaction between mother and child depends as much on the infant as it does the mother. How mothers can be entirely different mothers to different, dissimilar, children. It reminds me a lot of therapy. In some ways I think the individual therapist and client, and transference and countertransference, gets almost too much attention. While the dynamic relationship gets too little. Each therapist has a completely different therapy with each client. The space between the client and therapist is as important as the two participants.
At least that's what I've grown to think.
I've always been baffled by my attachment to my therapist that really can't be adequately explained by his personal characteristics. I think the answer lays in the dynamic relationship. In the space between us.
Posted by sunnydays on September 28, 2008, at 22:36:55
In reply to Babble as a Teaching Tool, posted by Daisym on September 27, 2008, at 23:50:57
Wow - what an opportunity for you! That all makes a lot of sense to me. I have been struggling lately with not feeling understood in T, and I think some of it is that sometimes when I am in a feeling place he starts giving suggestions or interpreting when all I want to do is FEEL. We've talked about this. The other part of it is that there is this teenager part of me that is coming out lately and neither of us quite know how to act when she is around. It seems like when she is around, nothing my T can do is right. And then I get very upset and scared that it will never feel all right again.
sunnydays
Posted by lucie lu on September 28, 2008, at 23:09:08
In reply to Babble as a Teaching Tool, posted by Daisym on September 27, 2008, at 23:50:57
Damn, I am such a techno-klutz! Don't know how I managed to convert my post into a one-liner. No, wait, let me guess ;)
Daisy, thanks for reporting on this lecture. It is really so interesting (I am now going to go on and re-use that word repeatedly because I can no longer remember how I worded any of my original message)
>> Today I was in a study group with Allen Schore. He is a psychotherapist who has written and researched extensively about implicit processing during therapy and the power of the right brain. I really liked how he talked about two things: 1) He talked about transference as an expectation of either rejection/withdrawal or aggression. Meaning, we often get triggered completely unconsciously into expecting our therapist to draw back from us or to be angry and shame us because of some communication they have given us, probably without knowing it and we've received it, also without knowing it. He used the example of turning your head away right when someone begins talking. It might have been purely a coincidence but the message to the other person might be taken as I don't think you are important, even if you turned your attention right back to them. He talked about preverbal learning patterns and the need to self-soothe because of the message of rejection.
Could that be the beginning of the realization that we are we and there are Others? That what might be experienced as rejection might just be where another's boundaries begin?
I have also have heard, variously, that 50-80% of all interpersonal communication is non-verbal, and have always wondered what that really means. So when I'm sitting there talking with my T, the 20-50% that is verbal may be saying one thing while the rest may be saying something else on a non-verbal level - I get that. (Although that would be pretty confusing - do you suppose that dichotomy happens most of the time we are communicating?) But then why is it that when we are quiet, not speaking, that we usually do not understand each other and the communication usually gets lost due to mis-interpretation? And - the biggest mystery to me - how do you know that, when you are thinking or feeling something, whether it originates in you or the other person, in which case you are merely receiving it and maybe reacting to it? I find these ideas all so interesting but also really confusing.
>>And he talked a lot about the therapist's attachment patterns and how they come into play with clients, especially in their ability to accept and hold the transference.
Can you say more about what he meant by that?
>> 2) He talked about cognitive processes and how 60% of communication is implicit. He feels that sometimes asking a client "how do you feel?" is shaming because the client may not have words for their feelings -- it is all "preverbal." He wondered if the therapist's own anxiety about not trusting the feelings in the room is what creates the need for "confirmation with words." He spoke about misattunement that happens when a client is in a feeling state (right brain) and the therapist goes into the cognitive state (left brain) and essentially abandons the client to hold all the feelings (probably the therapist's too) because the therapist is offering an interpretation instead of just being with what is happening.
Also interesting. Explains why I feel misunderstood sometimes even though my T is using the correct words to describe how I feel.
>> So much of what I heard today was confirmation of what I've been learning over the past few years. Young children simply are preverbal so we must pay attention to their body and play messages. But I heard a lot today that sounded like my own therapy and it makes me want to trust the process - it seems that we are on the right track. It was scary to think about the somatic introjections - can he really feel what I feel? I don't want to cause him pain - although Schore is adamant that it is necessary for healing - this shared containment that helps repressed feelings come up and out because you can now handle these feelings (even when you think you can't.)
You obviously care so deeply for your T, Daisy (and vice versa). It's true that vicariously shared feelings can hurt. But I think that what offsets this collateral pain for them is the satisfaction of knowing that they are, at that moment, intensely involved in healing. That has to be tremendously gratifying. So at least your T has the considerable satisfaction of knowing that by sharing your painful feelings, he's able to help you in such a deep and unique way.
>> Watching a number of the therapists in the room today, I couldn't help thinking (again), "they should all have to read Babble." I'm just amazed at what they don't seem to understand.:)
-Lucie
Posted by pegasus on September 29, 2008, at 11:49:35
In reply to Babble as a Teaching Tool, posted by Daisym on September 27, 2008, at 23:50:57
I couldn't agree with you more about babble being required reading. I mean, aside from the fact that none of us want our Ts to be reading this. But I've run into such ignorance in my classes (MA Counseling) regarding what it's like to be a client, that sometimes it's scary.
For example, I'll never forget the discussion I had in a class once after I mentioned how painful it can be for a client to be attached to their T. Another student innocently asked, "Why would it be painful to be attached to your T?" Honestly. It never crossed her mind that it could be painful or problematic for the client in any way. And she was just about done with the program. Probably out there practicing now.
peg
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