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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 20 of 20. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by llurpsienoodle on August 8, 2008, at 17:41:39
I'm wounded by therapy this morning. I asked T what his treatment plan for me was. He said that he was there to support me in going forward and accomplishing my personal goals [good] and to get me to accept myself, all my parts, as a whole [good] and to accept myself as a clinician (yes, he used that word) despite the fact that I may be a little fragile. I asked T if he treats me differently than his other clients. He was very very careful in his words. Almost more careful than I've ever seen. He asked me to clarify. I said- do you treat me differently because we are in the same field? He was kind of at a loss for words. I jumped in "I'm sorry I asked" "no, no, it's a good topic to discuss". I mentioned that he often tells me about interesting cases that he's treated, and asked him if he talks about that with his other clients? Not really, he said. He said that our relationship reminds him of when he supervised interns. That in the best supervision relationships the intern would bring in aspects of their own experience into the discussion. "oh". That supervision was probably the best experience of his career.
I wish he would see beyond the countertransference, beyond me meeting HIS needs.
Once again, I feel that only my competence is valued, that my emotional experiences-- my sensitivity, is neglected, ignored, in the hopes that it will extinguish itself. The previous session I had expressed great frustration that my dad only sees me as the sum of my talents. My T said- "but your talents are you! that's a part of who you are"
No wonder that I don't feel I can bring the whole person into the room. I have to check my neuroses and depression at the door. There is an advantage, of course, in strengthening the ego, but at the expense of fragmenting my experience into the acceptable positives and the secret, private filth? All this talk of "integration" is bullsh*t. I'm just honing my acting skills and returning the filth to some dark recess of my mind, where it will fester until I experience some stress.
I don't NEED another supervisor. I already have 3 of those. I need someone to understand ME, to allow me to show the cracks in my psyche, the dark side of the moon.
Tears are running down my face. I feel so misunderstood and undervalued.
Posted by Dinah on August 8, 2008, at 17:55:30
In reply to What is my T doing?, posted by llurpsienoodle on August 8, 2008, at 17:41:39
((((llurpsie))))
I do understand how you feel.
Did you tell him how you were hearing what he was saying? It may be that he didn't mean it the way it sounded.
Although I think you've mentioned before that he is strength oriented, and less likely to be with you in the way your female therapist was? If I'm remembering correctly, which I'm not at all sure I am.
Posted by raisinb on August 8, 2008, at 18:21:04
In reply to What is my T doing?, posted by llurpsienoodle on August 8, 2008, at 17:41:39
Llurpsie, I'm so sorry. I felt the same way when my therapist told me I seemed very "put together" while I was wallowing in painful transference with her. It's terrible to feel like nobody, even your therapist, sees the vulnerability and pain that lies beneath your competent exterior. It sounds like you wanted reassurance that he saw this, and he thought you wanted reassurance that he valued you in different ways than his other clients.
But it does sound like one of those once-in-a-blue-moon opportunities to work on something big. Call him! Or at least start off your next session by explaining what exactly you need from him.
Posted by twinleaf on August 8, 2008, at 18:37:06
In reply to What is my T doing?, posted by llurpsienoodle on August 8, 2008, at 17:41:39
When I was looking for a therapist, I also found ones who treated me like a colleague. Like you, I found that they over-emphasized the healthy parts of me, and wanted to relate principally to that side of me. They also did what you describe- shared details and stories about other clients. It just doesn't work at all, and makes you feel more alone than ever with the things that are bothering you.
The therapist I've got now even said once how "tempting it was to have social interactions with patients who are also colleagues. That can satisfy short term needs of the therapist, but can also make it harder for the patient to say what he truly needs to say."
While he is warm and down to earth, he really keeps to his word about allowing me to show him all the things I am most frightened and ashamed of. I never hear a word about other patients or interesting clinical situations. I really appreciate that it's that way.Can you talk about this with him, and find out whether he is willing to change his way of dealing with you? If you have really tried, and there's no change, do you have other choices where you live?
Posted by gardenergirl on August 8, 2008, at 19:23:38
In reply to the wrong thing... » llurpsienoodle, posted by twinleaf on August 8, 2008, at 18:37:06
> The therapist I've got now even said once how "tempting it was to have social interactions with patients who are also colleagues. That can satisfy short term needs of the therapist, but can also make it harder for the patient to say what he truly needs to say."
That really gets to the heart of it, the short term needs of the T. I was also fortunate in that my T was very mindful of this issue. I did bring stuff from some of my cases into therapy. At times it felt similar to supervision, but it was a safer place to explore whatever was going on with me about that case than supervision was at times. And my T was also good about keeping it about me and not about doing therapy.
Llurps, I can see how bad that would feel if your T was too focused on you the clinician and not all of you. I don't recall a super-similar situation, but I do recall feeling frustrated and unheard when my T would focus a lot on my strengths and the positives when I was feeling so bad about the negatives.
((((llurps)))) It's all fodder for the brave. You're brave. Still, go at your pace and take care of yourself, 'k?
gg
Posted by wishingstar on August 8, 2008, at 22:11:46
In reply to What is my T doing?, posted by llurpsienoodle on August 8, 2008, at 17:41:39
I think your post here llurpsie put how I'm feeling in my own therapy into words in a much clearer way than I've been able to. I experience the same thing with my current T and have had the same issue with some past Ts as well. I share that only to say that I understand how frustrating it can be. For me, it feels very invalidating when my T consistently glosses over the real issues and unhealthy behaviors over and over again, despite my requests to do things differently. Like how I truly feel isnt real or important... just like growing up.
My pdoc said a few weeks back that she believes there should be therapists out there who are specially trained to treat people who work in the field. I dont know that she meant it literally, but she has said many times that treating someone in the field is different and more difficult for her. She isnt a real winner of a doc/T usually, but I agree with her there.
Sorry I cant offer better advice. If I figure out a magic fix I'll surely let you know... :)
Posted by Lemonaide on August 8, 2008, at 22:38:37
In reply to What is my T doing?, posted by llurpsienoodle on August 8, 2008, at 17:41:39
Hi Ll
Sorry you are hurting right now. I have a feeling there is more to this that he needs to explain to you. This seems like a very important issue, something bigger than he realized I think.
He reminds me of my old T in the fact that he thought because you accomplish all of "this" that you can't be that bad off. But sometimes I think that they deal with clients who are so much worse than us, that it is hard for them to see that we are not operating at normal for us or at our potential because it might even be higher than our T themselves. I found it very frusterating.
With my current T I told him not to be fooled by my accomplishments, because there is so much more to me. I am able to do stuff( I can be very competent) and the same time be suffering terribly from emotional problems due to my past. I find this is kinda common in survivors, we are able to do such wonderful things, but be unstable emotionally too. Don't know if this helps at all, but I thought I would give it a try.
Posted by obsidian on August 8, 2008, at 23:16:03
In reply to What is my T doing?, posted by llurpsienoodle on August 8, 2008, at 17:41:39
I find that my intellect functions on a very different level than my emotional self
In many ways it has had to be that way for me. I've adapted the best I could on my own.
It's been incredibly lonely though. I wonder if it has felt that way for you?I need help with how I feel and usually not with how I think.
I hope you talk it out with your T.
-sid
Posted by llurpsienoodle on August 8, 2008, at 23:28:56
In reply to Re: What is my T doing? » llurpsienoodle, posted by Dinah on August 8, 2008, at 17:55:30
I left him a voicemail
I've never done this in between sessions before, but it has been bothering me so.
I can't really remember what I told him exactly, because I kind of blanked at the moment (stage fright). All I know is that my voice was on the verge of tears (and THAT is pretty obvious).
Hey (T) I don't think things went so well in our session today. I think you enjoy being with the nice Llurpsie so much that the delicate, fragile, angry, hurt Llurpsie doesn't even feel welcome in the room [here I borrow liberally from ideas by the brilliant (((((Nadezda)))))]. I think this idea of integration of different aspects of my experience is bullsh*t, as long as you don't encourage me to work with you on the hard stuff. Also, I don't need another supervisor, I have enough of those already. have a nice weekend. mumble mumble I never called you like this before, so I dunno how you feel about calling me back mumble mumble...See you Tuesday
I forgot to mentionto him that intellectualization is my primary default defense mechanism. When llurpsie feels threatened, or unsure, she resorts to the safe place that is her intellect. Logic and reason being old friends. Debate-style arguments on esoteric themes being the bread and butter of my communication style.
Lately I've been taking the lead in therapy by talking about EASY stuff, namely a few colorful cases, and how they are unfolding. Sprinkled in with assorted moanings about the never-ending saga of the 3-week sister-in-law visit (she MAY be returning, since she can't seem to patch things up with her [ex?] husband AAaaarghhhhh! and some anxieties about my postdoc starting in a couple weeks.
So, I'm in uncharted territories. T probably figures we're sailing along smoothly, but I'm getting more and more scared that we're headed towards the wrong outcome. Having professional validation only helps the strong side of me. I've always been fairly confident that I have a lot to offer, professionally. It's just the personal stuff that is so messy right now. How to assert myself in my own household. How not to be triggered by a phone call from Dad. How to cope with intense dreams and sudden attacks of anxiety that bring me back to the terror of being a powerless wee one.
etc.
I remain confident that we can work through this, but it's going to take a lot to get that "delicate side" to come out in session and to make my primal fears known. She gets scared easily. It was only 2 mos ago that T had to remind me that he was a safe person and that nothing was going to happen in his office. THAT scared. The whites of my eyes showing and eyeing the doorway.
-Ll
Posted by llurpsienoodle on August 8, 2008, at 23:42:56
In reply to Re: What is my T doing? » llurpsienoodle, posted by Dinah on August 8, 2008, at 17:55:30
> ((((llurpsie))))
>
> I do understand how you feel.
>thanks Dinah, hugs are golden
> Did you tell him how you were hearing what he was saying? It may be that he didn't mean it the way it sounded.
I kind of smiled and nodded. It wasn't until afterwards in the car that I started to unravel. I was even forced to do an emergency babblemail to get the sh*t off of my mind so that I could get my face ready for work.
>
> Although I think you've mentioned before that he is strength oriented, and less likely to be with you in the way your female therapist was? If I'm remembering correctly, which I'm not at all sure I am.Oh, you're GOOD! I've been trying to put things together. Why they they have both helped me (I'm less depressed right now than in the past 4? years) and yet, how their approaches could be so different. I was struck by the difference in their personalities. FemaleT (oldT) was able to let the fragile part speak her mind for large chunks of the time, and work on strengthening HER up, giving my weak side specific strategies for dealing with troublesome life circumstances. A lot of classic trauma-based therapy with moments of psychoanalysis thrown in. I knew that my time with her would only last 9 months, so my analysis was kind of hampered by being in perpetual crisis. hmmm.
CurrentT is very much oriented towards helping me discover, appreciate and learn about my strengths. Giving me courage to follow dreams, even when I'm falling apart. He has always brought a lot of his own experience into the room, helping me get oriented to the area after I just moved, and suggesting fun day trips to distract me from my depression. Telling me about restaurants to try (okay, I know I'm sounding shallow here) but the main point is that I appreciated how AUTHENTIC he was. Essentially a flawed, moody (I haven't seen evidence for this, though) human being whose 30 years of experience could be summed up in simplicity "well, we're going to talk about things, and a lot of people feel better". He's a very savvy therapist, and has been able to GET things with very very few cues from me.
It takes two to tango. I've been giving him mixed signals. Blame my strengthened ego, perhaps.
-Ll
Posted by llurpsienoodle on August 8, 2008, at 23:49:39
In reply to Re: What is my T doing? » llurpsienoodle, posted by raisinb on August 8, 2008, at 18:21:04
> Llurpsie, I'm so sorry. I felt the same way when my therapist told me I seemed very "put together" while I was wallowing in painful transference with her. It's terrible to feel like nobody, even your therapist, sees the vulnerability and pain that lies beneath your competent exterior. It sounds like you wanted reassurance that he saw this, and he thought you wanted reassurance that he valued you in different ways than his other clients.
I've brought up before how I felt like an actress, coming into the session feeling like utter hell, and he's remarked on some aspect of me that seems improved- "you seem to be more present today" "I notice that you've been applying for jobs in the past week- you should be proud of taking these steps" etc. I am faithful in reporting how I had X number of panic attacks, how I'd been hitting my prn Rx pretty hard since last session.
I have often remarked that I feel fake for reporting these things and that I come into the session and talk about my kitty, etc. That I have great difficulty bringing up, much less 'processing' [that word reminds me of canned sausage] the difficult stuff.
Yet, he insists that he takes me seriously, and that he believes that I am an accurate reporter of my own inner states of turmoil, even if I don't bring them into the session. I prefer to have my meltdowns in private. (or on babble ;)
>
> But it does sound like one of those once-in-a-blue-moon opportunities to work on something big. Call him! Or at least start off your next session by explaining what exactly you need from him.Thanks for the idea-- I DID call him. Really, because I got a lot of courage from your suggestion. Thank you thank you.
-Ll
Posted by llurpsienoodle on August 8, 2008, at 23:54:12
In reply to the wrong thing... » llurpsienoodle, posted by twinleaf on August 8, 2008, at 18:37:06
> When I was looking for a therapist, I also found ones who treated me like a colleague. Like you, I found that they over-emphasized the healthy parts of me, and wanted to relate principally to that side of me. They also did what you describe- shared details and stories about other clients. It just doesn't work at all, and makes you feel more alone than ever with the things that are bothering you.
Thank you for putting that uncomfortable feeling into words. I feel flattered on the one hand, but steamrolled on the other hand.
>
> The therapist I've got now even said once how "tempting it was to have social interactions with patients who are also colleagues. That can satisfy short term needs of the therapist, but can also make it harder for the patient to say what he truly needs to say."yep
> While he is warm and down to earth, he really keeps to his word about allowing me to show him all the things I am most frightened and ashamed of. I never hear a word about other patients or interesting clinical situations. I really appreciate that it's that way.
>
> Can you talk about this with him, and find out whether he is willing to change his way of dealing with you? If you have really tried, and there's no change, do you have other choices where you live?There are choices, but I'm confident that we can turn this stuff around. After all, I was taking a break after my PhD for 6 months and was kind of nebulous about my career plans (had to figure out whether I was too psycho to pursue my dreams). He's been fully supportive since then. I remember the first half of our work together. It was terrifying and brilliant. I think we can steer our way back in that direction, hopefully with the alternative of a stronger llurpsie?
thanks for your insight,
ll
Posted by llurpsienoodle on August 8, 2008, at 23:58:58
In reply to Re: the wrong thing..., posted by gardenergirl on August 8, 2008, at 19:23:38
> > The therapist I've got now even said once how "tempting it was to have social interactions with patients who are also colleagues. That can satisfy short term needs of the therapist, but can also make it harder for the patient to say what he truly needs to say."
>
> That really gets to the heart of it, the short term needs of the T. I was also fortunate in that my T was very mindful of this issue. I did bring stuff from some of my cases into therapy. At times it felt similar to supervision, but it was a safer place to explore whatever was going on with me about that case than supervision was at times. And my T was also good about keeping it about me and not about doing therapy.We keep things mostly about me. For instance my own personal reactions to having to witness domestic violence in situ; other hard stuff like that. He hasn't given me any "pointers" or techniques to try out. That would be stepping over the boundary between T and supervisor, in a way that might be irreparable.
>
> Llurps, I can see how bad that would feel if your T was too focused on you the clinician and not all of you. I don't recall a super-similar situation, but I do recall feeling frustrated and unheard when my T would focus a lot on my strengths and the positives when I was feeling so bad about the negatives.
>I feel the need to pipe up "but wait-- I've been having anxiety attacks and insomnia-- what's THAT all about?" even as he tells me that I seem less depressed and hopeless than this time last month. Also the cognitive dissonance between feeling BAD deep down inside, and being told that I project confidence and competence. Who's the real me?
> ((((llurps)))) It's all fodder for the brave. You're brave. Still, go at your pace and take care of yourself, 'k?
>
> ggthanks gg, it means lots to me
-Ll
Posted by llurpsienoodle on August 9, 2008, at 0:03:41
In reply to Re: What is my T doing?, posted by wishingstar on August 8, 2008, at 22:11:46
> I think your post here llurpsie put how I'm feeling in my own therapy into words in a much clearer way than I've been able to. I experience the same thing with my current T and have had the same issue with some past Ts as well. I share that only to say that I understand how frustrating it can be. For me, it feels very invalidating when my T consistently glosses over the real issues and unhealthy behaviors over and over again, despite my requests to do things differently. Like how I truly feel isnt real or important... just like growing up.
yes, or the feeling that if T ignores it then it will go away, be extinguished due to lack of reinforcing attention (perhaps?)
>
> My pdoc said a few weeks back that she believes there should be therapists out there who are specially trained to treat people who work in the field. I dont know that she meant it literally, but she has said many times that treating someone in the field is different and more difficult for her. She isnt a real winner of a doc/T usually, but I agree with her there.
>Yes, that's where I'm in trouble here. Because he's got 30 years of private practice and psychiatric hospital experience, and 20-odd years of supervising interns. So he brings both of those specialties into the office. I probably make it too easy for him to treat me as an intern. Because part of me really really wants to know what to do when I feel anxious about how a case is stumping me. It's time to have a serious discussion as peers that I need him to enforce a boundary that he may not have considered relevant before.
> Sorry I cant offer better advice. If I figure out a magic fix I'll surely let you know... :)you've got plenty of good advice to give. I respect your experience lots. (By this time you're seroquelled. sweet dreams :)
-Ll
Posted by llurpsienoodle on August 9, 2008, at 0:08:03
In reply to Re: What is my T doing?, posted by Lemonaide on August 8, 2008, at 22:38:37
> Hi Ll
>
> Sorry you are hurting right now. I have a feeling there is more to this that he needs to explain to you. This seems like a very important issue, something bigger than he realized I think.yes, I imagine that he could go into greater depth once I open the floor up to a discussion of therapeutic vs. professional boundaries.
>
> He reminds me of my old T in the fact that he thought because you accomplish all of "this" that you can't be that bad off. But sometimes I think that they deal with clients who are so much worse than us, that it is hard for them to see that we are not operating at normal for us or at our potential because it might even be higher than our T themselves. I found it very frusterating.
>hmm, I think he was kind of struck by the fact that I had just gotten a PhD, yet was disabled and couldn't leave the house. That the past haunted me. Now that he thinks I've pulled away from the deadly depression and instability that he can treat me more as an equal, respecting the fact that I bring a lot of colorful personal history to the discussion.
> With my current T I told him not to be fooled by my accomplishments, because there is so much more to me. I am able to do stuff( I can be very competent) and the same time be suffering terribly from emotional problems due to my past. I find this is kinda common in survivors, we are able to do such wonderful things, but be unstable emotionally too. Don't know if this helps at all, but I thought I would give it a try.
thanks lemon, you make a lot of sense
-Ll
Posted by llurpsienoodle on August 9, 2008, at 0:10:21
In reply to Re: What is my T doing? » llurpsienoodle, posted by obsidian on August 8, 2008, at 23:16:03
> I find that my intellect functions on a very different level than my emotional self
oh yes-- and I have a strong bias towards using my cognitive strengths and ignoring my gut instincts.
>
> In many ways it has had to be that way for me. I've adapted the best I could on my own.
> It's been incredibly lonely though. I wonder if it has felt that way for you?
>
yes, very lonely. Like everyone around me was at a party, only I was at the sidelines, and never really could get the beat of the music. Nobody coming over to discuss the nuances of chlorinated hydrocarbons, for example.> I need help with how I feel and usually not with how I think.
>
> I hope you talk it out with your T.
> -sidthanks sid, you're a gem
-Ll
Posted by llurpsienoodle on August 11, 2008, at 10:08:19
In reply to What is my T doing?, posted by llurpsienoodle on August 8, 2008, at 17:41:39
This morning he got my voice message and called me back right away. I didn't recognize the number (was it his cell phone?) and so I didn't answer it.
He said that he got my message, and that we can talk about it tomorrow, and that he believes he can allay my concerns"
now I'm freaked out. I've set myself up to confront this stuff HEAD ON.
(curses)
-Ll
Posted by indigogal on August 11, 2008, at 16:36:59
In reply to 'I can allay your concerns', posted by llurpsienoodle on August 11, 2008, at 10:08:19
Llurpsie... I'm glad you heard back from your T. I know you're freaking out, but really this is a good thing. You were soooo brave to bring these thoughts to his attention. I think you're about to have a *much needed* conversation. Good luck! And please keep us updated!
Posted by jammerlich on August 11, 2008, at 18:36:23
In reply to What is my T doing?, posted by llurpsienoodle on August 8, 2008, at 17:41:39
He definitely said some things that would upset me if I were in your shoes, but I can't help wondering if all this is entirely his doing.
You are skilled at hiding your emotions, yet you say you feel things deeply. Is it possible that sometimes you might think something is glaringly obvious to others when it really isn't? Is it that you've really, really been open in that office with your emotions and he's ignored them or is it possible that your expression might have been far more subtle than you initially thought? Damn them for not being mind readers!!
Posted by llurpsienoodle on August 12, 2008, at 16:36:00
In reply to 'I can allay your concerns', posted by llurpsienoodle on August 11, 2008, at 10:08:19
Super intense session today. I always feel like these kind of sessions cause brain damage.
I went home and napped for 90 minutes and then to work, and I'm still reeling.
I'd never seen him get defensive before. Yeah, I kind of tested him, to see where/how he cracks. But we both recovered and understood each other better. Mostly I mumbled and said nonsequitors. He did most of the talking. It's amazing how I'll be thinking something (complicated) and he'll untangle it for me, without my having said a word.
My responsibility is to come to therapy with "stuff" to work on. His responsibility is to make it a safe place to work on "stuff".
So we go back to basics here. I'm gonna get out my notebooks and start to journal some of the stuff, bring it to therapy, and practice losing my tears and getting all messy and incoherent. He gets to practice dealing with a messy llurpsie. Fun huh?
Trauma...trauma... so many layers of sh*t
-Ll
This is the end of the thread.
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