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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Daisym on January 20, 2008, at 1:55:32
...am I allowed to have all these feelings for you?" I asked this at my session on Thursday.
My therapist answered, "You can take them to your grave." It sounds funny when I write it out but the way he said it was so gentle and soft and reassuring. He believes that the more I internalize him, the stronger I'll be. He went on to say that we weren't working towards getting rid of them, we were working towards me feeling a secure attachment. He said he thinks all these feelings just go hand-in-hand with the deep work we are doing. And he knows it is hard for me when we get really close because as much as I want it, it was always so dangerous. He said this shows that I've moved from being avoidantly attached to him to being insecurely attached, which is why it is so uncomfortable right now. No kidding!
I kind of knew that but I get all twisted up about the intensity of needing to be connected. And I still can't sort out if I NEED therapy or WANT it. When I told him that, he said, "sometimes getting what we want is as important as getting what we need." All I know is that it is still hugely important to me.
It was one of those quiet, reflective sessions. I'd arrived declaring my hate for this process and for the anxiety that was up. He asked me to think about where the anxiety was coming from and if it was from opening up the stories again, did I think I could shut it down and stop telling? I said I could but the cost would be great. Going back to being numb - feels like a death sentence. He then wanted to know if anything good had come from telling -- from opening myself up to all the memories and hurt. I said I felt alive, like I matter, if only a little bit. But being alive is painful. He agreed. But he said being able to feel can be joyous too. I said it better after all this work! But mostly I'm telling about the abuse so it will end. Because if it stays a secret, it continues forever inside of me.
Mostly I think the work I'm doing is about reclaiming myself. I used to think it was about finding myself and sometimes that is still true. But more and more I think I'm working to reclaim the truth -- to allow myself to know all the things I wasn't supposed to remember and to know the parts of myself that my mother didn't like or value. I'm reclaiming the right to cry and the right to say, "I don't like that." These seem like such simply things but they haven't been for me. But the clearer I get about this, the more I seem to need that connection to my therapist. Shouldn't it be the opposite?
But for now, things have eased up a bit. I can challenge the anxiety and push away the fear of being a pain in the a## client. I still feel those waves of powerful loneliness but they are manageable. I appreciate all the advice and support from all of you. It helped a lot.
At the end of my session, my therapist said, "you've looked everywhere for the short cut, even as you are doing to work. Are you giving up looking for an easier way?"
"Hell no!" I said. If anyone out there has it, they better tell me!
Posted by Fallsfall on January 20, 2008, at 9:14:52
In reply to 'How long..., posted by Daisym on January 20, 2008, at 1:55:32
>He said this shows that I've moved from being avoidantly attached to him to being insecurely attached
WOW! That is huge, Daisy.
When you feel discouraged and ask if you are making any progress, remind yourself that you are learning to move up the attachment ladder.
You KNOW that is "worth it".
Love,
Falls
Posted by Dinah on January 20, 2008, at 13:29:19
In reply to 'How long..., posted by Daisym on January 20, 2008, at 1:55:32
I love quiet reflective sessions. :)
Your therapist impresses me so often. He seems, from this vantage point, to be so open himself. My therapist may say more or less the same thing, but he says it less raw-ly if that makes sense. Less directly.
You're doing well, Daisy.
Posted by JoniS on January 20, 2008, at 13:49:02
In reply to 'How long..., posted by Daisym on January 20, 2008, at 1:55:32
Awesome Post Daisy
I love the last line.
Much of your post sounds like what I might have said...Many months ago, maybe longer than months, since I had such a delicate, touching, intimate session. Oh how I long for that. :-(
Take care and thanks for your post!
Joni
Posted by star008 on January 20, 2008, at 15:45:20
In reply to 'How long..., posted by Daisym on January 20, 2008, at 1:55:32
daisy,
maybe he is allowing the feelings knowing tht in time they will change? By feeling the way you do you are trusting enough to open up and and work on deep issues. The feelings do change over time (I think).. The love changes (but for me) never left.But it is not romantic anymore or confusing either.
I sometimes wondered if I could shut up and go back to where I was and no, I can't do it. So I have to keep moving on. I don't think that anyone would want therapy who didn't need it.. What would they talk about?? lol I think that you are there because you ned to be there.
wish i had more to say that might help you..But at least you aren't alone in your thoughts.
Posted by sunnydays on January 20, 2008, at 17:19:40
In reply to 'How long..., posted by Daisym on January 20, 2008, at 1:55:32
> My therapist answered, "You can take them to your grave." It sounds funny when I write it out but the way he said it was so gentle and soft and reassuring.
*** I love it when my T talks like that. Do you think they get special training in how to talk soft like that? My T sometimes will say when I'm upset because of something he said that his voice could be really gentle all the time, but that wouldn't push the adult part of me to change. But that there needs to be a balance of meeting the little girl's needs and pushing the adult. I don't know where I'm going with that, just something that came into my head when I read that.
He believes that the more I internalize him, the stronger I'll be. He went on to say that we weren't working towards getting rid of them, we were working towards me feeling a secure attachment.
**** What would that mean in terms of the feelings? I know that's what my T and I are working on too, and I don't know exactly what that means. I guess that I can have the feelings but not struggle with and just let them be there? And be confident that he's still there for me?
He said he thinks all these feelings just go hand-in-hand with the deep work we are doing. And he knows it is hard for me when we get really close because as much as I want it, it was always so dangerous. He said this shows that I've moved from being avoidantly attached to him to being insecurely attached, which is why it is so uncomfortable right now. No kidding!
**** Yeah really! I think I'm insecurely attached to my T as well. It didn't help me when I read a book for a class that described that attachment style as 'obnoxious', but my T and I talked about it and he said he just sees the struggle as part of the process for me. That it's normal and that while it's really hard for me, it's perfectly all right and acceptable.
>
> I kind of knew that but I get all twisted up about the intensity of needing to be connected. And I still can't sort out if I NEED therapy or WANT it. When I told him that, he said, "sometimes getting what we want is as important as getting what we need." All I know is that it is still hugely important to me.**** Well.....that just means you're not 'done' yet! And I struggle with those same feelings of whether I can really want things from my T and whether it's ok to get those things if I don't really NEED them. And I think that wants and needs are very closely intertwined when talking about the psyche. A want may be something that we don't need to keep functioning in daily life, but it's something we need to allow us to trust and feel safe and to grow and change. So in that way, a lot of wants are actually needs I think. If that makes any sense.
I said I felt alive, like I matter, if only a little bit. But being alive is painful. He agreed. But he said being able to feel can be joyous too. I said it better after all this work! But mostly I'm telling about the abuse so it will end. Because if it stays a secret, it continues forever inside of me.
**** I'm proud of you. It's so hard to talk about these things, and you're doing it. A lot of people don't have the courage even to do that. And I hate being called brave, so I hesitate to say this, but I do think you're really brave. This is such a challenging process and I think we're going deeper into it than a lot people - a lot of people back out way before they get into this stuff. But we're making our way through, despite the difficulty. My T said I say things that he has never had another client say, like that I love him, and that he's never worked this deeply before with a client on their feelings about the process, that most people just aren't willing to talk about that. So I think we are doing a really huge thing, but one that can potentially be sooo healing. I should probably tell my T at some point that he asked me once how I felt about him in the first three or four sessions and that was one of the reasons I told him later on... I now think he just meant whether we were a good fit or not since I was barely talking at that point, but the question stuck with me because I was already seeing him as someone really important in my life.
>
> Mostly I think the work I'm doing is about reclaiming myself. I used to think it was about finding myself and sometimes that is still true. But more and more I think I'm working to reclaim the truth -- to allow myself to know all the things I wasn't supposed to remember and to know the parts of myself that my mother didn't like or value. I'm reclaiming the right to cry and the right to say, "I don't like that." These seem like such simply things but they haven't been for me. But the clearer I get about this, the more I seem to need that connection to my therapist. Shouldn't it be the opposite?***** Nope. My therapist says that a ton of anxiety comes up when we get closer and closer to the truth about ourselves, to the parts of ourselves that are most essential, the parts where we realize we were not to blame and that we have the right to take back control of our lives and live them the way we want. And that it's much more comfortable for some parts to stay stuck in the awful feelings we've had for so long. So they resist, and all this anxiety and angst comes up. And those are times when we particularly need someone to lean on, someone to support us and to validate for us that we are moving in the right direction. My T calls it moving toward being more 'empowered', but that's such a therapist-y word that I really don't like it.
>
> At the end of my session, my therapist said, "you've looked everywhere for the short cut, even as you are doing to work. Are you giving up looking for an easier way?"
>
> "Hell no!" I said. If anyone out there has it, they better tell me!**** And if someone tells you, you better publish a book so everyone can know! :) Your T sounds very wise and caring. I'm glad you have him to support you.
sunnydays
P.S. When I had just started therapy, I found this board, and reading your posts (probably about three years ago) really inspired me to keep going to therapy and keep trying because I was so impressed with the work you were doing and with the responses you got from your therapist. It helped me believe that when I opened up I could get some of those same sorts of responses. Thank you.
Posted by Daisym on January 20, 2008, at 21:21:45
In reply to Re: 'How long..., posted by Fallsfall on January 20, 2008, at 9:14:52
When we were talking about the changes in attachment I pointed out that barnacles learn how to be firmly attached - and then they NEVER let go! He laughed...
Most of the time I believe all this work is worth it. Doesn't mean I'm not still terrified of how I feel.
Posted by Daisym on January 20, 2008, at 21:29:39
In reply to Re: 'How long... » Daisym, posted by Dinah on January 20, 2008, at 13:29:19
Annierose said something awhile back about how non-defensive my therapist is. So I've been kind of paying attention to this lately. He has his moments of it, but mostly he is open to most things. He doesn't self-disclose much, except about what he is thinking or feeling. But I love that he will talk to me about theory and even joke about different orientations and what they'd say to this or that.
Lately I feel stuck and unstuck at the same time. So sometimes I think I'm doing well and getting a handle on things and other times I just want to sit in my closet. But being connected again feels good. Now, if I can just hang on to this for more than a week.
Posted by Daisym on January 20, 2008, at 21:33:19
In reply to Re: 'How long..., posted by JoniS on January 20, 2008, at 13:49:02
The thing about therapy is that you just never know when you are going to have a session like that - and you can't preorder one. It sometimes feels like first there is all this hurt and angst and THEN you get those raw feelings that feel deep and connective.
I know you miss your therapist. I hope the weeks are passing quickly.
Posted by Daisym on January 20, 2008, at 21:47:17
In reply to Re: 'How long..., posted by star008 on January 20, 2008, at 15:45:20
"maybe he is allowing the feelings knowing tht in time they will change?"
I think my therapist really believes that the relationship piece is the most powerful healing factor of the therapy and he is not looking for my attachment to him to diminish. I think he would say that he wishes it wasn't so hard for me to have all these feelings but that wanting them to go away is my wish, not his. He has this whole speech about how the world would be a nicer place if humans would value interdependence instead of so much independence. "Everyone needs someone to listen and care," he says.
I think my feelings for him have evolved and changed, similiar to yours. But I guess I'll always feel a very deep love for him, with all its meanings and wishes. Sometimes I wonder how his view of me has changed, if it has. I'd like to read his session notes, but then again, maybe I wouldn't.
Posted by Daisym on January 20, 2008, at 21:59:02
In reply to Re: 'How long... » Daisym, posted by sunnydays on January 20, 2008, at 17:19:40
You said some very nice things Sunny - Thank You. I'm always glad to know that I've helped someone. It is my constant worry that I write too much - too much "he said" and the "I said" stuff...but it just comes out like that for me!
One of the things that is hard to for people to understand is the push/pull of attachment. In almost all areas of my life, I am pathologically independent - I do it myself and rely on myself because I'm an overachiever and don't trust, etc. So then I talk about needing my therapist and I sort of paint this picture of myself as a therapy-cliche -- whenver something goes wrong I need my therapist. Clutch, clutch! I know you know those two extremes.
I do think how a therapist modulates their voice contributes to how we respond. I also believe that is why my therapist is so good at phone sessions, he has such an expressive voice. I can usually tell what he is thinking or feeling from what he says.
And brave - well thank you. But it hardly feels brave to cry through the entire story. But I'm clear that part of the need for my therapist is the need for borrowed courage. He lets me have what I need.
Thanks for your response and sharing your experiences too. It helps me a lot.
Posted by muffled on January 21, 2008, at 11:16:07
In reply to 'How long..., posted by Daisym on January 20, 2008, at 1:55:32
Thanks for sharing Daisy.
Noboddy found that damn shortcut yet!!!!
Take care, just wanted to say thx for that post.
M
Posted by TherapyGirl on January 21, 2008, at 20:01:45
In reply to 'How long..., posted by Daisym on January 20, 2008, at 1:55:32
I love it when you post like this. You are so very articulate, not only about the therapeutic process, but about the attachment issues. I'm so glad you're here.
Posted by Daisym on January 21, 2008, at 20:43:10
In reply to Re: 'How long... » Daisym, posted by muffled on January 21, 2008, at 11:16:07
Thanks for reading.
At least I'm not alone as I struggle.
Posted by Daisym on January 21, 2008, at 20:47:27
In reply to Re: 'How long... » Daisym, posted by TherapyGirl on January 21, 2008, at 20:01:45
Thank you - what a sweet thing to say. :)
Today my therapist asked if I could hang on to the connection this weekend. I said mostly. But there were times when it just kind of clicked off. That made me sad. He asked what I was doing when I lost it - could I pin point anything? I said no -"But, wait - What were YOU doing? Never mind - I don't want to know!" He laughed.
Thankgoodness he didn't follow up with his usual, "what do you imagine I was doing?" Yikes!
Posted by Kath on January 24, 2008, at 16:34:06
In reply to 'How long..., posted by Daisym on January 20, 2008, at 1:55:32
Well D,
I dunno about a shortcut, but something really easy that sure as hell helps me!!!
I posted about it on Alternative.
Today, I was feeling really upset about something that happened last night. More than half the day went by with me feeling crappy, then I remebered, "Jeez - I should 'tap' "
So I did & within minutes I went from feeling crappy to a level of 7 or 8 (10 being BAD) down to a 5 or 6!!!
There's a step-by-step video to follow:
www.tapping.com
Let me know what you think, if you decide to try it.
Today the phrase I started with was:
"Even though I feel embarassed & upset by what happened at the store yesterday, I deeply & completely love & accept myself." (When I first learned EFT, the word 'love' was included. I notice it isn't included on the video; maybe 'cuz lots of people would internally think, "Yeah as IF I love myself!" Maybe that's why he removed it)
You'll know what I'm talking about if you happen to watch the video.
love & hugs & sorry for your pain D.
PS - it's not something I'd use instead of therapy, but can be a really useful thing to use along with therapy 'cuz you can do it on your own between sessions.
This is the end of the thread.
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