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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by happyflower on October 7, 2007, at 14:54:18
In reply to Re: What is the silver lining of child abuse? » happyflower, posted by Phillipa on October 7, 2007, at 13:07:43
If you take a look at the story again as an adult, those fairy tales are very scary indeed!
Actually what happened was that the family was starving, so the mother convince the father that they must take Hansel and Gretel out into the woods and leave them there, so there would be enough to eat. Yikes! And this really has happened though out history. Then the evil witch entices them with the gingerbread house, to lure them in , so she can trap them, fatten them up and eat them. Kinda sick story. I am glad I didn't read thoe to my kids.
Posted by happyflower on October 7, 2007, at 15:06:34
In reply to yes!!! you take Pierre Bourdieu, he sucks (nm) » happyflower, posted by Dory on October 7, 2007, at 14:43:54
LOL, I guess we could switch... The only thing I remember about him was that he compared people's social class to what kind of music they listen to. Don't know if that is the topic, but I guess it isn't . lol Good luck, when is it due?
Posted by Dinah on October 7, 2007, at 15:41:41
In reply to Re: What is the silver lining of child abuse? » sunnydays, posted by happyflower on October 7, 2007, at 14:23:25
Are you saying that your two choices were to find a silver lining in child abuse, or to argue that child abuse is the child's invention?
That doesn't sound in keeping with what I understand is being taught about child abuse in universities today, so I'm a bit surprised.
I suppose there is a difference between trying to come up with positive aspects to something that has already happened to someone, and saying that very negative behaviors have silver linings. The latter seems almost to be saying that it isn't all bad because something good comes out of it. I think that goes a bit far for child abuse. Yeah, there are kids who make it through, but there are lots of kids that don't. Not all Hansels and Gretels make it out of the forest.
But if you've experienced anything, no matter how horrific, and come through to the other side, it can be said that you learned something valuable from making it through. People who almost die often find a new purpose to life. People who have lost a loved one to violence often dedicate themselves to making sure it doesn't happen again.
I guess I don't see a silver lining in violent death or near death experience. The good comes out of what people make of their experiences, not the experience itself.
Posted by Dory on October 7, 2007, at 16:32:28
In reply to Re: yes!!! you take Pierre Bourdieu, he sucks » Dory, posted by happyflower on October 7, 2007, at 15:06:34
social class and taste actually, applying to music, yes, but to all other symbols of taste or "breeding."
It was due on Friday but i have an extension. i have to deal with the opinions of critics as well.. at least four of them have to be considered and placed within the context of their political orientation. Same for the biblio.. ordered and grouped by school of thought, etc.
Posted by annierose on October 7, 2007, at 16:45:29
In reply to Re: What is the silver lining of child abuse? » happyflower, posted by Dinah on October 7, 2007, at 15:41:41
Very well put.
Posted by Dory on October 7, 2007, at 16:57:19
In reply to Re: What is the silver lining of child abuse? » happyflower, posted by Dinah on October 7, 2007, at 15:41:41
"Not all Hansels and Gretels make it out of the forest."
yeah... wasn't witchy's first child-pie attempt if i recall..
so.. what of all the people who don't make lemonade? Is the silver lining individual? i would say that in many cases it breaks down functioning. Abusees often become abusers. What happens when creative people like Bing Crosby turn out to be horrid child abusers? i'm just throwing it out there..
i do like and agree with your ideas dinah, about what someone does with their life experiences rather than what the experiences are. Very well articulated.
Is "making the best of it" the same as "something good coming of it?"
Posted by happyflower on October 7, 2007, at 17:12:16
In reply to Re: What is the silver lining of child abuse? » happyflower, posted by Dinah on October 7, 2007, at 15:41:41
There are other views to take for this assignment, but we have to use these so called experts. One believes in the silver lining, the other that it is all in the child's imagination, and the other one is from a femenist expert on how women in fairy tales are portrayed negatively of women. I can either agree with them or disagree with them,but I have to use the story of Hansel and Gretel to prove my view I am wanting to make.
This isn't a class about child abuse, it is a writing class, where it is their job to get us to stretch our minds and think of an aspect and write about it. The so called expert in my book do show that child abuse is hard to prove in sociiety because society doesn't want to beleive it. But those of us who have been there, know the truth.
I really wasn't trying to upset anyone, I know child abuse is so wrong, and I was having trouble coming up with a silver lining in my own life.You said: I guess I don't see a silver lining in violent death or near death experience. The good comes out of what people make of their experiences, not the experience itself.
But what I am wondering is if the experience is what made the person take the initiative in making the most out of it. Does that make any sense?
I guess this assignment is getting me to do what it was suppose to do, think about these situations. My T does believe in making the most out of things, so maybe that is why he believes in the silver lining. He doesn't belive child abuse is good either, it would be better to have no child abuse and no silver lining, as opposed to the opposite, but the reality is that child abuse is more rampant than we want to believe. IT is a hard topic to write about and think about.
Posted by seldomseen on October 7, 2007, at 18:50:35
In reply to What is the silver lining of child abuse?, posted by happyflower on October 7, 2007, at 10:52:23
Yeah, I've spent a lot of time trying to find the silver lining of the abuse I experienced as a child.
On balance, I would rather it not have happened, but it has given me a deep sense of empathy and overwhelming sense of gratitude at just being alive.
It's weird but lately, rather than feeling so flawed or damaged, it has been giving me a real sense of invincibility. It's almost like I know that if I can live through that and come out with some semblance of sanity, then there really isn't much else life can through at me that I can't handle. Yeah, I get thrown for a loop sometimes, but really, what I deal with now is NOTHING compared to what I survived as a child.
I've been in therapy for years and it has taken every bit of it to get to this point.
But that's my take on it.
Seldom.
Posted by Phillipa on October 7, 2007, at 19:46:05
In reply to Re: What is the silver lining of child abuse? » Phillipa, posted by happyflower on October 7, 2007, at 14:54:18
Happyflower shows maybe how a child processes the stories? As I know it was read to me as a child and I liked it why? Phillipa
Posted by RealMe on October 7, 2007, at 20:27:22
In reply to Re: What is the silver lining of child abuse? » happyflower, posted by sunnydays on October 7, 2007, at 13:10:57
sunndays
There will be a time when you will rise above it. You are young, and you will be able to have strength based on a better parental type relationship so to speak, namely that of your T.
RealMe
Posted by RealMe on October 7, 2007, at 20:50:32
In reply to Re: What is the silver lining of child abuse? » Dinah, posted by happyflower on October 7, 2007, at 17:12:16
Besides giving me strengh in adverse times, I think that my past history of abuse has made me more empathetic to others no matter what. I suppose it had a lot to do with me becoming a psychologist. When I was a therapist, I believe I was a good therapist. So I was told by some of the best in the country at Menninger's. When the abuse stuff came back up for me, I was not doing therapy anymore, just evaluations, and perhaps at some level that allowed me to address what I did not want to address earlier.
So, for one thing, I think what happened to me in my past helped to make me more empathetic and to recognize and feel the pain that others experience. I also don't judge people, and so when I do an evaluation on a sex offender, I can truely empathize with what was horrible in that person's life growing up too. I don't condone what they did, and most are miserable about what they did too. Some are not, and they need to go to prison as far as I am concerned. And for a long time. I evaluate a lot of women too who have horrible histories of sexual, physical, and mental abuse, and they have taken to drugs and alcohol to obliterate the pain. I don't recommend that, but I can undertand why they have done this. It is painful to hear. It is even painful to listen to a parent who has killed an infant or child. They are in deep pain, and I can be there to help them see that someone does not hate them.
For me, what someone does--good, bad, or otherwise is not who that person is. A person is not just their actions. I did very well in school, but that does not make me special. I am who I am and for lots of reasons and experiences, not just for being smart and training at the best place in the country at the time. I am grateful for that. The fact that I was first a patient there due to my abuse and difficulties at the time, I likely would not have gone to Menninger's for postdoctoral training. So I guess you could say my abuse has taken me down a path to being able to work and be trained by some of the best people in the country at the time, at Menninger's. Would that have happened had I not been abused?
Here is my response; I think my path would have been different had I not been abused and not wanted to desperately get away from not only home but also my home town with all sorts of horrible memories. Would I have gone to college. Probably I would have, but I would have stayed a biology major and chem minor and gone into microbiology or pathology, and so I would never have worked with people and postively impacted on their lives.
So, in that sense, the abuse took me down a certain path. Could I have become a better clinician? I just don't know and never will obviously. Later, if I think of more.
RealMe
Posted by rskontos on October 7, 2007, at 21:00:09
In reply to Re: What is the silver lining...**trigger** » happyflower, posted by RealMe on October 7, 2007, at 20:50:32
Phillipa, as
a teacher, my specialty is early childhood education, go figure. Most children take out of fairy tales what they need and only that. IF they have been abused then the fairy tale can take on a different meaning and have different meaning and they can be working something out internally. Usually that is why a child will ask for a story to be read over and over and over again. Usually this story is helping them with something, maybe its a comfort, maybe it is something they can't verbalize. As educators we were taught to tell parents to continue reading the particualr story until they stopped asking. Most children like fairy tales because they don't usually get from them what adults do. If a child has been protected and nurtured as they should be fairy tales are tales of good versus evil nothing more nothing less. If they haven't not then they can mean more......That is from my children's lit class. And that is why parents are still encouraged to read fairy tales to children. In a perfect world and normal families they are ok, if read in the proper setting. Does that answer your question?
Posted by Phillipa on October 7, 2007, at 21:27:07
In reply to Re: What is the silver lining...**trigger**, posted by rskontos on October 7, 2007, at 21:00:09
Thanks that does make sense. In my case I think my favorite was sleeping beauty do you know what it signifies. I find this fascinating and very education. As my childhood may have had verbal abuse and neglect but I'd decided with my own children only stress the positive ignore the negative. They never asked to have a story repeated. We read books every day and night all kinds . Fairy tales included. Wonder what the librarian at the library would think of a 61 year old woman taking out fairy tales. Couldn't lie and say they were for grandchildren. Mine are teens now. Thanks again Phillipa
Posted by happyflower on October 7, 2007, at 22:26:10
In reply to Re: What is the silver lining...**trigger** » rskontos, posted by Phillipa on October 7, 2007, at 21:27:07
Hey Phillipa,
You would not be alone in reading fairy tales at an older age, in fact the tales were orginally written for adults, not for children.
It seem that fairy tales are getting a lot of academia attention lately. There is so much to them than just a nice story. They are folk tales passed on from generation to generation. A lot of countries have their own version of Snow White, it may be called something else but the story is very simular. This is the book we are using for our writings. http://www.amazon.com/Classic-Fairy-Norton-Critical-Editions/dp/0393972771/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/105-3807230-7070056?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1191813611&sr=8-1
I think that is a link for it. But it talks a lot about what I have been saying in the above posts. I have read her other book this week to The Hard Facts of Fairytales. The folk stories were thought to be actual real stories, but embellished. Even the Grimm brothers changed the vocal tales they heard to fit their moral and relgious beliefs. For instance, orginally in the story of Snow White, it was the mother who was the evil one, but one of the Grimm brothers changed it to a stepmother. He thought the tale would be better suited that way.
I guess this class has even me looking at other fairytales and trying to read into the real meaning.
Posted by happyflower on October 7, 2007, at 22:36:04
In reply to Re: What is the silver lining...**trigger** » happyflower, posted by RealMe on October 7, 2007, at 20:50:32
Thanks for sharing your story RealMe. I am thinking simular stuff about myself too. It was horrible the stuff that happened to us, but if we can find a postive in all "sh*t", I think we will be more at peace with it in a way. I could be wrong though.
My T thinks my past and experiences will make a great T too. I have so much to offer clients, more than lets say a young 20 yr. old, who is still growing up. Not to say that 20yr. old's can't be good T's, they can, but they just have less life experience to draw upon. (especially if they have never been out of the acedemic world.)I went throught hell and back being a stepmother, but I feel that experiece will help me in the future. Other examples, child birth, being a mother, teaching preschool and owning a daycare buisness, getting married. Not all of this stuff was pleasant, but it did give me experience to use to help others. So I do see how you gained strengh from all your stuff, and I can see that it helped you be a better T. Thanks for writing.
Posted by happyflower on October 7, 2007, at 22:39:54
In reply to Re: What is the silver lining » RealMe, posted by happyflower on October 7, 2007, at 22:36:04
I am going with Buttelheims idea of projection instead. He talks about how fairy tales allow children to safely use their imagination to deal with the anxiety of the Freudians's oral stage. I didn't want to take his view, but he does have more supporting evidence in what he says about Hansel and Gretel.
Posted by Phillipa on October 7, 2007, at 22:50:24
In reply to Fairy Tales » Phillipa, posted by happyflower on October 7, 2007, at 22:26:10
Happyflower I'd forgotten a lot of it but my Mother was not nice to me not her fault it was a new med. Wonder if subconsciously I'm thinking of Mother??? Now you have me analyzing. Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on October 7, 2007, at 22:54:57
In reply to Decided not to use the silver lining for my paper, posted by happyflower on October 7, 2007, at 22:39:54
Happyflower explain what that is about. Feel like I'm in class with you. For someone so young you've done a lot already. Phillipa
Posted by happyflower on October 7, 2007, at 23:10:43
In reply to Re: Fairy Tales » happyflower, posted by Phillipa on October 7, 2007, at 22:50:24
I really don't know Phillipa, but if something is coming up about this, it could mean something. You could read the book I gave a link to or the books discribed in the book. I know my libray had copies of Tatar's book and Bruno's book. Maybe I could send you my essay when I am done, but I am not expert, just writing a paper for college.
As far as being young, I am not that young, I am 38. LOL But I have had a lot of job experience doing various stuff, and of course you know the experience having children and being married gives you. LOL
Posted by Phillipa on October 7, 2007, at 23:42:47
In reply to Re: Fairy Tales » Phillipa, posted by happyflower on October 7, 2007, at 23:10:43
Happyflower would love to read it. Don't get me going with stuff coming up but you never know. Yes I will have to read a fairy tale book. Will look for your choice. And 38 is young I'd give anything to be that age again as the best years of my life were 30's and 40's then that thing with an m kicks in. Phillipa
Posted by Daisym on October 8, 2007, at 0:05:07
In reply to Re: Fairy Tales » happyflower, posted by Phillipa on October 7, 2007, at 23:42:47
The major message in Bruno Bettelheim's work is that fairy tales should be graphic and clearly have a good guy and a bad guy. We water down children's stories now so that kids don't get scared but the whole point of a fairy tales was to teach a lesson.
I find myself reacting to the phrase "silver lining" -- that sounds different to me than discussing the adaptive characteristics which were perhaps strengthened by the environment of abuse. A silver lining implies something good imbedded in a negative experience - a "saving grace" if you will. Speaking only for myself - there was nothing good about being raped repeatedly.
I find these kinds of paper assignments reductive - trying to take an awful experience and simplify it down to the left over positive parts. I think that is the teacher wishing (hoping and needing) something positive to help justify these acts somehow. It is an innately human hope. We have a very hard time tolerating that bad things happen for no good reason to people who didn't deserve for them to happen. I think looking for the positives is just yet another way to deny how destructive child abuse is.
Posted by RealMe on October 8, 2007, at 0:07:24
In reply to Re: What is the silver lining » RealMe, posted by happyflower on October 7, 2007, at 22:36:04
I think you are right about coming to a point where we can be at peace with what happened and then also learning to trust again.
RealMe
Posted by happyflower on October 8, 2007, at 7:12:49
In reply to Re: Fairy Tales » happyflower, posted by Phillipa on October 7, 2007, at 23:42:47
Just be careful about fairy tales because they can be very triggering. There are a lot of uncomfortable things that they contain and if you are one to get triggered by stuff from your past, I wouldn't recommend to reading them. Even Disney stuff can be triggering. So be careful, okay!
Thanks for telling me 38 isn't old! I feel old when I am in a class with youngsters. lol I can't wait until the M thing kicks in, to end the M's !!! lol
Posted by fallsfall on October 8, 2007, at 8:47:14
In reply to Re: What is the silver lining...**trigger** » rskontos, posted by Phillipa on October 7, 2007, at 21:27:07
The librarian's goal is to make all kinds of materials available for everyone. She would think that you wanted to read fairy tales and that would be just fine. All of the books in the library are there for anyone who wants to read them.
Posted by antigua3 on October 8, 2007, at 8:49:52
In reply to Re: Fairy Tales -- trigger, posted by Daisym on October 8, 2007, at 0:05:07
While I appreciate the assignment, I can't possibly see a silver lining, although I do respect myself for the strength that I've acquired. But I wish I never had to learn that.
antigua
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