![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 19 to 43 of 52. Go back in thread:
Posted by jammerlich on July 23, 2007, at 10:56:57
In reply to Re: Needs and my situation with T.....help!!, posted by Maria01 on July 23, 2007, at 9:57:41
Would it be horrible for me to wait until next week to do this?? I'm moving next Sunday and haven't even started packing. My parents and ex-husband are helping, so it's likely to be all kinds of uncomfortable. Plus, there's still painting that needs to be done in the new house. I'm afraid if I go ahead with this and it doesn't go well, I'll never get everything done. I may not get everything done as it is. I'm not very on the ball lately.
So, what do you think? Go ahead with it or wait?
I have more to say to everyone (thank you all so much for writing), but must run to meet someone for lunch. Back later.
Posted by Honore on July 23, 2007, at 11:17:23
In reply to Needs and my situation with T.....help!!, posted by jammerlich on July 22, 2007, at 17:13:43
Hey, jammer. Maybe you do need to call every night for a while-- what's wrong with that?
Nothing. I really mean that. I wish you could understand that there is nothing at all wrong with needing that-- and with getting it, too.
It's been done. You're not the only one. I've read case histories and articles describing Ps who needed that-- and Ts who were able to provide that without feeling invaded or exhausted. You need the right T-- granted. And it's not every T. But there's nothing wrong with the need.
You need a T who can handle whatever it is that you do need to work through whatever is and has happened. That includes the idea that you might need to call a lot of nights-- or maybe even every night. It really is okay to need to do that. It might mean that you need to see him/her more than you do-- which may not be feasible-- but again, there's nothing wrong with it.
So you know you need to consider very very seriously whether, despite how attached you are to your T, she can meet your needs. It's not your fault, or her fault. She is who she is. It may be that she doesn't have that ability that some other Ts do(maybe not that many-- but it doesn't matter, how many-- what matters is that you find someone who is able to handle this in a way that you find healing, not harmful)
You need a consistent and not-frightened availability of presence and contact to get through these difficult emotions, and times. And so you need-- really *need*-- someone who's got some different capabilities. Hard as it may be to end-- she just doesn't seem to be able to say the right thing-- or keep from saying these very very wrong things-- when you open up and are taking risks. She has some great qualities, but this particular quality that she may not have is so very important for you.
That's got to be tearing you down over time-- It did me, when I've tried to work with Ts who had some of those fragilities and brittleness about boundaries. I would be very very direct and clear with her-- If she doesn't feel that she can truly give you what you need, you do have to think about protecting yourself from the despair that the knowledge of that-- which you have all the time with her, it seems--provokes.
I know that's very very difficult-- but without that, you could be stuck in a place that isn't good. I very much agree with what Daisy said about that-- you've tested it out, and it does seem that it's about the fit between you and her-- a misfit that doesn't seem, after all this, to be leading to your being helped.
Honore
Posted by Maria01 on July 23, 2007, at 14:21:37
In reply to Another question for everyone, posted by jammerlich on July 23, 2007, at 10:56:57
In all honesty, you're the best judge of that. Only you know how much pre-moving stuff needs to be accomplished, and you also have the most awareness of your situtation with your T and how that can possibly impact the other things you need to do.
There's nothing "horrible" about waiting..only you know how much you can handle in light of your upcoming move. =)
Posted by jammerlich on July 23, 2007, at 14:21:37
In reply to Re: Needs and my situation with T.....help!! » jammerlich, posted by DAisym on July 22, 2007, at 23:11:40
Doing things her way is starting to feel like a really big deal. At the end of our last session, she sort of went off a little bit. Not raising her voice or even seeming angry; but, she WAS frustrated and the pitch of her voice got high and she gestured with her hands a whole lot. It was very unsettling.
She said she was confused, that she didn't know what to do to help me, and that she could make(or has made??, I can't remember) suggestions but I "won't do them anyway." (And this was after saying earlier, in the same session, that she really thinks I'm doing the best I can each day. How's that for mixed messages?) She sounded completely exasperated. I felt a sense I panic, like I MUST do more; but, after I got home and thought about it, it also made me really angry. I have my first ever pdoc appt. on Thursday and I'm going largely because she wants me to. All I've agreed to take is something to help me sleep; but, I could get that from my general practitioner. I'm going to the pdoc for her and I've agreed to find out what else he would suggest for me and take the list and look into those medications to see how I feel about them. That part is for her, too, and I think her statement made this step seem completely unimportant. It's also left me thinking, "why bother?" Are small steps REALLY alright with her? Will anything ever be enough?
Daisy, what do you think about the use of medication to get through the telling? And I mean if you can be stable if you weren't talking about it. She seems to think that meds are the way to go to make it easier. I guess I think about how everyone says it'll come when it's ready to come and think if you need medication to be "ready" then maybe something else is wrong with the situation. But maybe that's because I really DO feel that something else is wrong with mine. To me, it seems like she wants me on meds to make things easier on HER (so I won't call or whatever)and not so much for me, really. Maybe if I really believed she'd be there for me, I'd be more open to them. Not that I don't have other issues with them, because I do. There are lots of obstacles in that department.
Posted by jammerlich on July 23, 2007, at 14:35:59
In reply to Waaaagh!! What a bunch of GREAT posts!!!! » jammerlich, posted by muffled on July 23, 2007, at 0:21:00
Muffly, you make a lot of valid points. And I really hope I'm not twisting what she says. I guess I DO believe it's OK for me to call sometimes; I'm just at a loss for when those times are. And I'm scared of calling at a "wrong" time, so then I freak and obssess, don't call at all, and just suffer in silence.
Most of the time I call these days is when there's something I know I NEED to say, but probably WON'T say if I wait until my next session. Those calls seemed OK b/c I really just needed to get the thing SAID so we could talk about it later; I wasn't really looking for anything from her. I have called a couple of times just because I was having a hard time with something (related to her or someone else) and both times, I found her to be very brief and lacking warmth. Like she was responding in such a way as to discourage future calls.
And like you, I wouldn't want her to sugarcoat anything. I think it'd be setting us both up for misery if she said something was OK when she didn't really feel that way. And while shooting straight helps me know I can trust her to be honest, I don't think it means I should stay with her. Maybe what she feels comfortable offering isn't the thing that's going to help me move forward.
I think it's great that your T has voicemail. Mine doesn't and, IMO, that's a real problem. She has a secretary taking messages during the day and an answering service to take messages or page her after hours; they just take your name and number. Given the nature of my recent calls, if she had voicemail, I wouldn't even need to speak to her....I could just blurt there. And that might leave me feeling more free to actually make calls when I have the more needy feelings, which I don't generally do b/c I feel like I've taken her time in the other ways and might step into one of those "not OK" situations.
Posted by jammerlich on July 23, 2007, at 14:40:16
In reply to Re: Needs -- Jammer + Daisy......for DAISY and, posted by slugdoo on July 23, 2007, at 3:42:49
I'm not angry at all at what you had to say. A lot of it was right on target and exactly what I've been thinking myself. Repairing that termination rupture is a really, really tough thing.
In fairness, though, I do want to say that she did a really great job during the sessions immediately before and after her vacation. I'd kind of already shut down and gone into survival mode, but she really did and said all the right things. The only thing I hate is that I wasn't able to more responsive and openly appreciative of them, because now she might think she wasn't hitting the right buttons when, in actuality, she probably got them all.
Posted by jammerlich on July 23, 2007, at 14:49:07
In reply to Re: Needs and my situation with T.....help!! » jammerlich, posted by red house on July 23, 2007, at 8:26:03
There is so much shame wrapped up in it, isn't there? I really do wonder why that is. Or maybe I don't. Until pretty recently, I've felt like my only purpose for being on the planet was to be a tool for meeting other people's needs. I never really gave much thought to the fact that I could have needs. It was mainly about survival, and I think even that was an accident. So, I've acknowledged that I have needs; but, other people's needs were a huge invasion and nearly destroyed me. Will mine be the same to those I look to for meeting them?
Security is another word you used that feels important to me. I don't feel at all secure in my relationship with her, so I think I constantly have one foot out the door. I've got to be prepared to escape quickly should the need arise.
Posted by jammerlich on July 23, 2007, at 14:51:20
In reply to Re: Needs and my situation with T.....help!!, posted by Maria01 on July 23, 2007, at 9:57:41
Sadly, my money is on "unwilling," too. Though, my hope is that it's just some huge miscommunication that we can work out. I'm just not sure it's a good idea to have any hope right now. I might just be setting myself up for more disappointment.
Sigh.
Posted by jammerlich on July 23, 2007, at 14:55:35
In reply to Re: Needs and my situation with T.....help!! » jammerlich, posted by Honore on July 23, 2007, at 11:17:23
Thanks for writing, Honore. And for saying that it's OK to need and to call often. It's such a hard thing to believe. I probably wouldn't even consider it possible without you and all these other wonderful babblers.
Thanks for noticing that she has great qualities, too. She really does and I'm sure she's the perfect T for lots of people. I do know, however, that she may not be the perfect T for me and that it's time to find out and move on, if need be. It really sucks, but I do know it.
Posted by Maria01 on July 23, 2007, at 15:32:18
In reply to Re: Needs and my situation with T.....help!! » Maria01, posted by jammerlich on July 23, 2007, at 14:51:20
Oh, man. Yeah, you might have to guard against disppointment..ideally, one shouldn't have to do that with a therapist. In this case, though, it might be warranted until you can find out for sure what is going on.
From what you've posted, I think she just doesn't have the capacity. It's no reflection on you, just a reflection of who she is and how she works. ...doesn't lessen your pain, though.
Posted by jammerlich on July 23, 2007, at 15:43:32
In reply to Re: Needs and my situation with T.....help!!, posted by Maria01 on July 23, 2007, at 15:32:18
Actually, I think she DOES have the capacity. What I'd like from her is exactly what she gave when I saw her the first time around. I'm more inclined to believe she just isn't willing to do that type of therapy with ME anymore, not that she isn't willing or able to do it at all. And that is probably the worst part of it for me.
Posted by slugdoo on July 23, 2007, at 16:32:53
In reply to Re: Needs -- Jammer + Daisy......for DAISY and » slugdoo, posted by jammerlich on July 23, 2007, at 14:40:16
Whew! I am glad you are not mad. Is there a way you can tell her that what she did during this time really helped you so she will know more about what you need from her?
Posted by Maria01 on July 23, 2007, at 16:49:13
In reply to Re: Needs and my situation with T.....help!! » Maria01, posted by jammerlich on July 23, 2007, at 15:43:32
That is especially gut-wrenching, knowing she does have that capacity and is just not willing. Went thru a lot of that with my ex-T; the capacity was there, as evidenced by how she behaved early on, but the willingness went south in the last month I was working with her.
I'm hoping now that I'm with someone who is both willing and able, and I hope that you are able to find the same, be it with your currrent T, or with someone else. It is the least we can do for ourselves.
Posted by DAisym on July 23, 2007, at 17:22:18
In reply to Re: Needs and my situation with T.....help!! » DAisym, posted by jammerlich on July 23, 2007, at 14:21:37
Daisy, what do you think about the use of medication to get through the telling? And I mean if you can be stable if you weren't talking about it. She seems to think that meds are the way to go to make it easier.
****Remember I'm biased in some ways because I went on medication to regain my stability. There came a point when I had to talk about the abuse - both now and in the past. But talking about it was such a shock to my system and it unleashed so many powerful emotions that I went into crisis pretty quickly. From everything I've read, this happens frequently. So I think medications are very useful to help "maintain." Medications can also reduce the anxiety that is keeping you from telling. These are useful if your stories are in the room and on your mind a lot -- but not out there for discussion. My son made use of therapy after he was on medication for anxiety. So in that way, medication can make it easier.
I guess I think about how everyone says it'll come when it's ready to come and think if you need medication to be "ready" then maybe something else is wrong with the situation. But maybe that's because I really DO feel that something else is wrong with mine.
******I don't think I agree that "if you need medication something else is wrong" -- sometimes it takes the calming of anxiety and getting enough sleep to focus on this huge step. But I don't think medication alone opens the door to the telling - there must be containment on the part of the therapist as well. It is kind of like taking medication for a condition that also needs surgery. You need the medication to be ready for the surgery but if the hospital or doctor does not inspire confidence you aren't likely to agree to the surgery. So then the medication either "just" keeps you in a holding pattern or doesn't help as much as it might.
To me, it seems like she wants me on meds to make things easier on HER (so I won't call or whatever)and not so much for me, really. Maybe if I really believed she'd be there for me, I'd be more open to them. Not that I don't have other issues with them, because I do. There are lots of obstacles in that department.
****I have huge struggles around my feelings about medications - for me. For anyone else I'd say, "use whatever you can to feel better." Like all things, there are risks and benefits. I've hated some of what I've been on and been saved by other stuff. I still get mad at my therapist when he (oh-so-carefully) asks about my meds or the pdoc appointments. I get it in my head that he doesn't want to deal with the fallout of telling and all the dependency needs. But the honest truth, when I can remember it, is that he hates to see me suffer. His word - suffer. He never withdraws his support, as if it could ever be replaced with a medication. But he knows he can't be there at 3am, so sleeping is a good thing. And I think his experience is that the medications take the edge off the really hard stuff we are working on so that I can keep functioning and we can keep working on it. What point would there be to jump into working on the stuff that is making your life miserable if you can't function at all in your life by jumping into it?
Jammer - I think you keep answering your own question. You are not at the point of trusting this therapist to tell. Even if she says she can do everything you want, you don't know it inside yourself. You feel pushed away, you know you frustrate her and she tells you how confused she is about how to help you. Until the trust is back in place, the stories will stay hidden. I think you are so right that talking about what you need in order to go deeper is the exact right track. I doubt it matters this week or next. I agree getting disrupted this week seems like a bad idea. Taking control of when to talk about this is actually a good thing and more practice at self-care, though I know it is hard to wait.
Posted by TherapyGirl on July 23, 2007, at 18:40:42
In reply to Another question for everyone, posted by jammerlich on July 23, 2007, at 10:56:57
I think you can probably afford to wait. On the other hand, if she had a really great response, you would probably be in better shape for the move. But there's really no way to know that.
Will you obsess about it between now and next week, though? Because that's what I'd do. And in that case, it might be better to go ahead and get it over with.
Posted by jammerlich on July 24, 2007, at 15:46:16
In reply to Re: Another question for everyone » jammerlich, posted by TherapyGirl on July 23, 2007, at 18:40:42
And she did start out by trying to talk about last week. So, points for her there. At least she realizes that something about it was a big deal. I told her that I'd been thinking about it a lot and had some very specific things to say; but that I wanted to wait until next week because I have a lot to do this week and don't want any added disruption.
She asked what I was going to "do with it" this week if we didn't go ahead and talk about it. That felt like she didn't think it was a good idea. But, I told her I'd been thinking about all the possible outcomes and some seemed bad enough to me that I worried I might not be able to do what I need to do. She seemed to understand that and didn't push at all. Just asked if I still wanted to come to my appt. on Thurs. I didn't know, so we decided to wait and talk about it again at the end.
Then we went on to have a really, really good session. I even told her about something that triggered me pretty badly over the weekend and relates to all the stuff I can't seem to talk about. Go figure. Of course, I also wanted to add, "And I really would liked to have CALLED you; but, I wasn't sure it'd be OK!!"
So, we got to the end and she asked about Thurs. I said I'd like to come if that was OK. She said it was.....and in a way that seemed really genuine. I looked at her, felt so strongly how very badly I want this to work out with her, and got all choked up. She asked what I was going to say and I just shook my head. She said, "Jammer, I'm sorry if I upset you last week. I really didn't intend to do that." I think it's odd that she would find it at all surprising that I would be upset by what happened; but, it was a nice thing to hear. It felt real.
This is going to be even harder than I thought. I hope you all don't get tired of it before next Tuesday because I'm going to need you all if I have any hope of maintaining my resolve.
Posted by Dinah on July 24, 2007, at 17:05:59
In reply to I went, posted by jammerlich on July 24, 2007, at 15:46:16
Jammer, that's great!
You know, I decided that my therapist was right for me first, and then we negotiated the ways that he could and couldn't meet my needs. Because of that, we really did end up finding things that met my needs just fine, even if they weren't what I would have wished for if I'd have been able to create my own therapy.
She sounds like she cares, and that's a great start. Maybe you two can figure out some ways to meet your needs in a way that both of you are comfortable with.
I'm glad it was a great session. :)
(Isn't it funny how great sessions often follow horrible ones, and great sessions are often followed by boring ones? There seems to be some goodness measure that ought to be doled out session by session, but somehow gets unevenly distributed.)
Posted by TherapyGirl on July 24, 2007, at 17:39:59
In reply to I went, posted by jammerlich on July 24, 2007, at 15:46:16
It sounds like you both did a good job today, Jammer. And I'll for sure help you hang in there until next Tuesday.
Glad you had a good session.
Posted by LadyBug on July 24, 2007, at 21:00:32
In reply to I went, posted by jammerlich on July 24, 2007, at 15:46:16
Posted by muffled on July 24, 2007, at 22:16:57
In reply to I went, posted by jammerlich on July 24, 2007, at 15:46:16
awww Jammer, this T has potential....
But I dunno....
Damn this is HARD for you, I'm sorry.
Just hate to see you leave her until you've hashed it out well with her. Which seems to be your plan.
Hope it works out not too hard anyeways.
Good luck w/moving too etc.
I going away mebbe thursday...
Take care,
Muffled
Posted by jammerlich on July 25, 2007, at 11:59:40
In reply to Re: I went » jammerlich, posted by Dinah on July 24, 2007, at 17:05:59
Well, it doesn't really seem very great to me. I WANT it to work out even more than I did before; but, I'm no more confident that it actually WILL. And that just feels like a recipe for disappointment.
Do you think the sessions following horrible ones are really all that great or do they just seem great because we're so discouraged from the horrible one that we keep our expectations low? I think, at least in part, I was just delighted it didn't go as horribly as the one before.
You're right, it does sound like she cares; though, I'm not sure I ever really doubted that part. She has a lot of very lovely qualities. I just wish that were always enough.
Posted by jammerlich on July 25, 2007, at 12:01:18
In reply to Re: I went » jammerlich, posted by TherapyGirl on July 24, 2007, at 17:39:59
Thank you for saying you'll stick around, TG. I think I already need the help. I'm feeling very discouraged today....kind of in the "I should just suck it up and take whatever it is she offers" sort of way.
Posted by jammerlich on July 25, 2007, at 12:01:57
In reply to Re: I went)I'm glad things went well for you! (nm) » jammerlich, posted by LadyBug on July 24, 2007, at 21:00:32
Posted by jammerlich on July 25, 2007, at 12:05:20
In reply to Re: I went » jammerlich, posted by muffled on July 24, 2007, at 22:16:57
I'm going to miss you while you're away, muffly. Have a really great time, OK? As much as you can.
I think you go back and forth about my T as much as I do! It helps so much to know I'm not the only one.
No, I won't leave her without hashing it out at least a little. That's what I did last time and I've promised her (and myself) that I will never do that again. But, it's a very hard promise to keep right now.
Posted by TherapyGirl on July 25, 2007, at 18:25:09
In reply to Re: I went » TherapyGirl, posted by jammerlich on July 25, 2007, at 12:01:18
> Thank you for saying you'll stick around, TG. I think I already need the help.
**Happy to be able to help out in whatever way I can.
> I'm feeling very discouraged today....kind of in the "I should just suck it up and take whatever it is she offers" sort of way.
Can I just point out here that this is abused child kind of thinking? We will just take whatever is offered and never speak up and never get enough of what we need. That's one of the reasons you're in therapy to start with. It would be one thing if you were asking to move in with her. But as far as I can tell, you are asking for realistic and appropriate things to address your needs. Please, please try not to minimize them or yourself. Okay?
You're worth this, Jammer. And I hope she will come through for you. But if not, I feel pretty positive that you can find a T who will.
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Psychology | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.