![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 38. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by muffled on June 28, 2007, at 16:10:05
I got a roof over my head.
I got a TV.
I got a car.
Food.
We even eat OUT lots.
We rent videos.
And I am alittle ashamed cuz I really have been splurged in that I have a HS adsl internet connection which is very expensive.
I have a dog.
I have a cellphone.
I have a camera.
I have a FANCY washer and a dryer too.(dryer not fancy)
I have a trailer.
I live in a peaceful area.
We get reasonable medical care.
None of my stuff, except where stated is fancy, but I HAVE it.
I got STUFF.
So I dunno. Sometimes I think I should just sell whatever someone would buy (proly not much of it...) but sell what I can. Live in abject poverty, refuse medical care, send all my money cept for BASICS away to others more deserving of it than I.
No therapy. I will just live simply and allow my scars to multiply when I have my episodes. I can duct tape them shut.
Or mebbe if I am forced to, I will just grow up?
When I am off the wall, I will send my kids to relatives while I wait for my emotions to pass.
I will live a portion of my life in a tortured confusion of fear. Like those in other countries, somewhat perhaps...just a scaled down version of it...
Then its more fair.........its not fair I have what to me is so much, and others have nothing...There ARE alot of pitfalls to therapy. I have NO question of that. NONE. Its an imperfect science at best. Different personalities of people , dealing with diff personalities of people. No two the same.
BUT,
I also feel that therapy HELPS ALOT many people. I think its like meds, you goto weigh the benefits to the side effects....
and I wish ALL could afford T. Sadly, many who COULD benefit ALOT from T cannot financially afford it...
Sigh, its NOT fair...
its a HUGE topic, one of those one I feel are SO broad that there will be no simple easy answers.
An endless topic fraught with possible hurt.
Maybe not a great topic, I dunno.
Life is not fair, it just isn't.
Thats my thots.
Muffled
Posted by Squiggles on June 28, 2007, at 17:05:33
In reply to Sometimes I feel so guilty..., posted by muffled on June 28, 2007, at 16:10:05
I don't mind if it's under Medicare, to
talk to a doctor. Or you can talk to your
priest, or rabbi, or teacher, or community
groups. But this privitization of a human
need, under the pretense of para-medicine--
it's fraud, dehumanizing, despotic, and
a prostitution of the soul.It's inauthentic.
Squiggles
Posted by muffled on June 28, 2007, at 17:34:51
In reply to Re: Sometimes I feel so guilty... » muffled, posted by Squiggles on June 28, 2007, at 17:05:33
Posted by Wittgenstein on June 28, 2007, at 17:43:03
In reply to Sometimes I feel so guilty..., posted by muffled on June 28, 2007, at 16:10:05
It upset me to see those posts in Camp Comfort. I can understand where Squiggles was coming from but in my opinion it was an ill-chosen place to try and make such a point.
There is the 'grass is always greener' argument - think of the poor people without shelter, security, nourishment, education etc. Why should we be upset that our T's go away when we are lucky to have them - and lucky to have all the other many things in life that we take for granted. But frankly I don't think this argument follows through at all.
Yes, we all have primary needs - and compared to food, water, shelter etc. therapy would not seem too 'essential'. A human can survive without therapy but not food. But once these basic needs are fulfilled - and of course it should be that all humans have equal access to these basic things - we can start considering quality of life - with food, shelter etc. we have an 'existence' but most of us (fortunately) can look beyond basic existence to the quality of their lives - happiness and fulfillment.
If I had been born in a certain part of the world, I would be blind - completely blind. I probably wouldn't be dead but that doesn't mean that the health care I have been lucky enough to receive is unnecessary or that for example I don't have the right to have expectations regarding my eye care - maybe it's taken for granted - maybe in my case it's not a basic need for my survival but without it my quality of life would be considerably worse - and if your quality of life is too poor that can also jeopardise survival per se. I see therapy in the same light - I'm grateful I have the chance of therapy. There will be many people in less prosperous parts of the world who could benefit greatly from therapy but who, through their situations, go without, along with many other things. And that's perhaps to take it too lightly - for many, T is their life-line - it not only stands between stagnation and change but life and death.
In an ideal world the optimum health care would be open to all - not just the lucky few. But the fact that it isn't, doesn't mean that those who are in therapy are wrong in experiencing the strong feelings they do when their therapists have to go away.
The person in the very worst situation in this world does not set the standards for what we should expect. We are all in this world together - but we are also all in our own societies/communities each with their own respective set of rules, standards and expectations. Maybe it makes you sick that some have so much yet still expect more. I personally am more upset by a common society with huge gaps in wealth and standards of living - compared to those societies where all people have a certain standard of living - where the rich-poor divide is narrow.
A world with no therapy at all would be a worse world - Squiggle, your argument just gives us all the more reason to be grateful that we have T's - to value our T's and in turn this will have the effect of causing a sense of loss, separation and possibly abandonment when our t's leave us on vacation.
The need is very real - people go into T for a reason - they have real wounds to heal. They shouldn't feel selfish/guilty - they should be proud that they are investing in their lives rather than taking their lives for granted.
And a repeated criticism of the book recommended in the Camp Comfort thread was that the author provided no adequate alternative to T.
Witti
Posted by Squiggles on June 28, 2007, at 17:53:06
In reply to Re: Sometimes I feel so guilty..., posted by Wittgenstein on June 28, 2007, at 17:43:03
Well, sorry i butt in. It was a trigger
and i am an impulsive person under some
strain right now.As for therapy, everyone is free to do as
he or she wishes. But deep questions, deep
pains... these are matters that you yourself
know the answers to, if you stop deceiving yourself, if you take the time to be honest
with yourself and accept your shortcoming or
your anguish or your guilt. Then you will be
your own man and can trust yourself.To rely on a psychotherapist to unearth the
"unconscious" or suppressed facts, reveal them
to you and tell you , now you can go and play
with the kids, you have my permission-- is not
going to make you a man. And as i said the
fee may just keep you dependent on this stroking of the ego. Any answer you get to your difficult life questions, will not come from you, they will come from the psychotherapist's mind, or bag of academic tools.Unless, you are biologically disabled mentally, the only way to find the truth is to look within yourself. You do have a self, and you do have the answers, though you may be afraid to face them.
Squiggles
Posted by muffled on June 28, 2007, at 18:19:59
In reply to Re: Sometimes I feel so guilty... » Wittgenstein, posted by Squiggles on June 28, 2007, at 17:53:06
> Well, sorry i butt in. It was a trigger
> and i am an impulsive person under some
> strain right now.*s'ok. I expect what you did was hurtful, but not meaning to be. My T says she will hurt proly, but not intentionally, its just the human condition.
Sorry you are under some strain. Maybe babblers can help you with some stuff?
>
> As for therapy, everyone is free to do as
> he or she wishes. But deep questions, deep
> pains... these are matters that you yourself
> know the answers to, if you stop deceiving yourself, if you take the time to be honest**Lordamighty, I TRIED. However, with some basic CBT type stuff, I went from being a dangerous, self harming, screaming at kids, substance abusing person, to the much calmer , safer, kinder, person I am today. W/O T i would likely be on the street, a burden to society, or perhaps far more likely dead.
> with yourself and accept your shortcoming or
> your anguish or your guilt. Then you will be
> your own man and can trust yourself.**I STILL cannot trust myself. I try and try. But there is not trust in all areas. I am accepting now that Maybe this is as good as it gets for me. I am not displeased, I have done well.
I think that maybe T can do no more, and that I am just dependant on her for not good enuf reasons....> To rely on a psychotherapist to unearth the
> "unconscious" or suppressed facts, reveal them
> to you and tell you , now you can go and play
> with the kids, you have my permission-- is not
> going to make you a man.**You not been talking to MY T.!!!! She is VERY careful not to put words in my mouth. Which must have been hard cuz I don't talk much!!! There are MANY diff styles of therapy. MANY.
>And as i said the
> fee may just keep you dependent on this stroking of the ego. Any answer you get to your difficult life questions, will not come from you, they will come from the psychotherapist's mind, or bag of academic tools.**My T is not magic, she's just a person, she has no magic answers to lifes questions. She has mostly taught me to COPE with my own stuff.Coping strategies. To not hurt myself etc. She is quite clear that *I* am the expert on me. She can only reflect back what I say and stuff.
For me, dependency IS an issue. If I am to justify the expense, I must be willing to work, therapy is work. And I have not been willing to do so. So I am stopping, but its hard to stop. Guess thats to me, a side effect that I am willing to live with, as the therapy has done me much good.
>
> Unless, you are biologically disabled mentally, the only way to find the truth is to look within yourself. You do have a self, and you do have the answers, though you may be afraid to face them.**I AM afraid to face myself. I agree. I also say HOW can ANYone judge mental disablement? Other than as a level of functioning?
If I am not getting stuff done, if I am isolating, if I am self injuring, if I am bad to my kids, if I am doing dangerous behaviours, and I CAN'T make myself stop. I CAN'T cuz I can't stand the screaming in my head, then,
what does that make me?
Sigh. This isn't an easy discussion, its just SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO broad.
I wasn't going to reply.
But this is triggering to me too.Whether I can justify the money spent on therapy.
On me.
Rather than my family.
But I say YES. It was justified. I just dunno if its justified anymore...
Best wishes,
Muffled
Posted by wishingstar on June 28, 2007, at 18:25:20
In reply to Re: Sometimes I feel so guilty... » Wittgenstein, posted by Squiggles on June 28, 2007, at 17:53:06
I dont want to get into this cvonversation too deeply, but I just have to say...
as someone who does counseling/therapy for a living myself... I feel that I'm very authentic with the people I work with. Maybe even moreso than in my "real" life. While I do limit what I share and show about myself personally, the thins I do say come straight from a deep part of me. No, I wouldnt do it every single day without being paid.. thats probably true. But I do genuinely care about each person I work with and while I probably dont feel the connection in the same way they do, I do feel it. The work definitely is about the client and nothing a therapist does can fix someone or get them somewhere they arent willing to go themselves.. but sometimes people need a hand in order to look deep inside themselves and take those steps. It can be very scary and a supportive, nonjudgmental (and that's the key, as it isnt always available in friends/family/etc) person backing you up can be very helpful for some. It doesnt work for everyone.... but I know I do good work, and I know my therapists have helped me to do good work with myself as well.
I dont mean to say you're wrong. Only that it isnt true for everyone. If it feels inauthentic and unhelpful to you, theres really nothing wrong with that. We're all different.
Posted by Squiggles on June 28, 2007, at 18:28:30
In reply to Wasn't gonna post but..... » Squiggles, posted by muffled on June 28, 2007, at 18:19:59
I don't know what your medical situation is.
If you are screaming at the kids and having
rages, the psychotherapy may be a band-aid that
works for now. Maybe, you need a doctor's
attention as well.That is just my prejudice on matters of temper that are chronic problems. If it is a life phase thing and you thing your T, saying nothing but "educating" the stuff out helps, i hope it will be permanent for you.
Tx for the offer. My problem right now is just
simple disappointment. With time I hope to clear things up.Squiggles
Posted by muffled on June 28, 2007, at 18:44:25
In reply to Re: Wasn't gonna post but..... » muffled, posted by Squiggles on June 28, 2007, at 18:28:30
Hmmm, this is proly last post to this thread, as I dunno if I being heard, but....
> I don't know what your medical situation is.
> If you are screaming at the kids and having
> rages, the psychotherapy may be a band-aid that
> works for now. Maybe, you need a doctor's
> attention as well.**I no longer have rages. I now understand that the emotions DO in fact pass. I didn't know that before. I thot they just stayed inside and fermented and controlled me. This is part of the educational aspect of therapy.
The thing bout T, is what I have learned is sort of like riding a bike. You never forget how. You can get a little rusty, but you always remember how to ride. Same with the coping strategies I have learned in T, they are forever, they are not a bandaid, they will not fall off. Also the things I have learned about how emotions work are life changing. It makes sense to me NOW, and is totally logical, but before i just did not have that information. So whether my dysfunction is purely biological, or as a result of environment, the end result is the same, improvement.
>
> That is just my prejudice on matters of temper that are chronic problems. If it is a life phase thing and you thing your T, saying nothing but "educating" the stuff out helps, i hope it will be permanent for you.**I have no way of knowing if my 'temper' or mood stuff is chronic. But even if it IS, I will cope with it better, and it will negatively impact my life MUCH less.
All this amazing changes, as the result of therapy.
Words ARE magic. They can hurt. Words can even kill. Mere words. They can bring joy to peoples hearts. Words. Talking. There IS a magic to interpersonal communication.
There CAN be healing, life giving healing in therapy.
>
> Tx for the offer. My problem right now is just
> simple disappointment. With time I hope to clear things up.
>
**Simple dissapointment....
Hmmmm.
Yet it clouded your judgement in posting impulsively to the thread above....hmmmmm. Words.
They MAGIC!!!!!
Hope you can get your stuff sorted out.
Muffled
Posted by Wittgenstein on June 28, 2007, at 19:12:18
In reply to Re: Sometimes I feel so guilty... » Wittgenstein, posted by Squiggles on June 28, 2007, at 17:53:06
You have expressed a warped and simplistic view of 'psychotherapy' which happens to be a very broad discipline with many different schools of thought.
If self-improvement, self-revelation is so obtainable - why do we seek help in so many aspects of life - not just mental life? Why do smokers who want to give up, wear nicotine patches when surely their power of mind alone can sustain them - and save them a good deal of money? Why do we care what we look like to our friends when really we know whether we look good or not ourselves. And T is not just about inner pains - it's about patterns of behaviour, and interpersonal relationships.
I have the feeling all you want to do here is cause a stir - which you've managed. Does it make you feel any better?
Perhaps if you were less self-assured of your own 'inner truth' (which frankly is a bit of a wishy-washy term) you might realise that many things in life have no clear answers - things like therapy are incredibly productive and useful - and life changing (not just temporarily healing) for many people. Equally, some people will find therapy unnecessary, unhelpful and inappropriate. I don't think either group is in a position to undermine the strength of the other - there are many types of therapy, many types of person - the fact that many are clearly helped by therapy stands on its own feet.
Finally, in your response to me you said:
" Unless, you are biologically disabled mentally, the only way to find the truth is to look within yourself. "
I'm pretty upset that you bring 'biological mental disability' (whatever that is meant to be) into this discussion. There are all sorts of ramifications arising from this debate, which I won't go into.
I think you need to step back - see this in context - you are not an absolute authority and there is no absolute authority on the worthiness or value of T - you express your subjective thoughts from your own perspective - and so do I - I don't feel a need to convince you, I'm only replying because I can see how your words could undermine the progress that others are making in their lives, as most of the people using this part of the board will be in therapy themselves.
If you believe that change can come from within (which I think is perfectly compatible with the need for therapy) - then you can rest assured that if therapy is indeed a universal waste of time etc. etc. we will find it within ourselves to come to that conclusion.
I'm also sad to tell you that if it's an absolute inner truth you are seeking - you may come to be rather disappointed - which I see from another post you say you are.
Witti
Posted by Squiggles on June 28, 2007, at 19:13:09
In reply to Re: Wasn't gonna post but....., posted by muffled on June 28, 2007, at 18:44:25
> **Simple dissapointment....
> Hmmmm.
> Yet it clouded your judgement in posting impulsively to the thread above....hmmmmm. Words.
> They MAGIC!!!!!Yes, i agree-- they stimulate emotions-- like these below that your wrote, for example:
> Hope you can get your stuff sorted out.
Last time I saw my doctor and discussed my disappointment, and plans to avoid stuff etc., he said, "I hope you have a better year Squiggles"--those words meant something to me, a lot, and yet the phrase was succinct, but the message, pregnant with meaning.Squiggles
> Muffled
>
Posted by Squiggles on June 28, 2007, at 19:18:13
In reply to Re: Sometimes I feel so guilty... FOR SQUIGGLES, posted by Wittgenstein on June 28, 2007, at 19:12:18
>
> I have the feeling all you want to do here is cause a stir - which you've managed. Does it make you feel any better?
>That's rude and presumptuous.
You may think what you like of me.Squiggles
Posted by muffled on June 28, 2007, at 19:40:25
In reply to Re: Sometimes I feel so guilty... FOR SQUIGGLES » Wittgenstein, posted by Squiggles on June 28, 2007, at 19:18:13
Ahhh witti, try not to let squiggles stuff trigger you.
I have some doubt as to whether his mind may be changed, but who knows. Maybe he will be delightfully surprized!!! Sometimes the most challenging people end up being wonderful!!!
I think he just a hurting person scrambling for answers just like the rest of us.
Maybe he learned something from us? Despite himself!!!LOL!!!!
Maybe he will become a valued member of this community.
Maybe he will make me nuts!
Who knows.
Lets give it a chance.
Anyhow,
best wishes
M
Posted by muffled on June 28, 2007, at 19:46:28
In reply to Re: Sometimes I feel so guilty... FOR SQUIGGLES » Wittgenstein, posted by Squiggles on June 28, 2007, at 19:18:13
> >
> > I have the feeling all you want to do here is cause a stir - which you've managed. Does it make you feel any better?
> >
>
> That's rude and presumptuous.
> You may think what you like of me.
>
> SquigglesYou posted this squiggles:
Well, sorry i butt in. It was a trigger
and i am an impulsive person under some
strain right now.Guess you and witti and me not so different in some ways anyhow!
Hope you can stick around and at least read, and learn the babble way of communicating civilly, which is a challenge in of itself!!! But I am learning.
Maybe you can come to a greater understanding of where I and some others are comming from?
Its up to you.
Take care, and BTW your last post to me was lovely.
I heard it :-)
Thanks,
Muffled
Posted by Wittgenstein on June 28, 2007, at 19:46:28
In reply to ((((Witti))))dang triggers, me too, posted by muffled on June 28, 2007, at 19:40:25
Thanks Muffled :)
Sorry Squiggles to have offended you. This is just sensitive for me.
Witti
Posted by Squiggles on June 28, 2007, at 21:09:16
In reply to Re: ((((Witti))))dang triggers, me too, posted by Wittgenstein on June 28, 2007, at 19:46:28
That's OK - i'm from Barcelona :-)
Squiggles
Posted by sunnydays on June 28, 2007, at 22:00:45
In reply to Re: Sometimes I feel so guilty... » muffled, posted by Squiggles on June 28, 2007, at 17:05:33
Personally, I think therapy can be the most authentic thing there is. I have made the most amazing amount of progress in such a short time. No one forces me to go, and I make all the choices, so how is it despotic?
Such a real relationship, but just with limits.
sunnydays
Posted by Squiggles on June 29, 2007, at 5:50:27
In reply to Re: Sometimes I feel so guilty... » Squiggles, posted by sunnydays on June 28, 2007, at 22:00:45
There's a difference between a counsellor
with whom you discuss your problems and
solutions, and a therapist who practices
psychological treatment on you. With a
psychological treatment, the problem may
range anywhere from pedophilia to gambling
addiction. Presumably, the therapist has
the power to treat any of this range of
chronic personality problems by talk therapy.
That can take your whole lifetime, and i would
not be surprised if they do take your money for
your whole lifetime, without giving medical treatment which is what is needed.With a counsellor, you can speak to your doctor or a social worker at a CLSC regarding a specific life problem.
So, the therapist is despotic in assuming a superiour position to a doctor, and pretending to have the power to treat any kind of problem, and denying the need for medical care--if he's dishonest. And i am cynical enough to say that money makes a lot of people dishonest.
Squiggles
Posted by Dory on June 29, 2007, at 9:27:47
In reply to Re: Sometimes I feel so guilty... » sunnydays, posted by Squiggles on June 29, 2007, at 5:50:27
i am breaking my own self-imposed ban for this, and only this.
i am asking the babble community to stop being baited by this. Stop answering.
We may have different opinions about therapy, and many struggle with guilt, but we all know that a gambling addiction is not a personality disorder, nor is the spectrum of PD's between it and pedophilia... good grief.
You cannot answer anger. This is not a debate, as in the exchange of strong ideas, this is an argument and no one wins.
Squiggles, please stop.
Posted by Squiggles on June 29, 2007, at 9:35:02
In reply to breaking my own rule... and um..deputies?, posted by Dory on June 29, 2007, at 9:27:47
OK - it if bothers you; i've left the post
for the book for those who are of a different
opinion. But, I will not criticize therapy
again.Squiggles
Posted by sunnydays on June 29, 2007, at 10:06:03
In reply to Re: Sometimes I feel so guilty... » Wittgenstein, posted by Squiggles on June 28, 2007, at 17:53:06
How is that therapy does not help one look inside oneself? That's frankly the purpose of my therapy. And how am I deceiving myself? I'm not guilty of being abused. It's my responsibility how I respond, however, and that's why I'm doing therapy. I want to get over it and be able to find who I truly am. My T is a guide along that path. He doesn't shape who I am, just helps me to find it. And I don't need to be a man, since I'm a woman.
I'm sorry you had a bad experience with T, but I don't think bad experiences can be generalized to all of a profession.
sunnydays
Posted by sunnydays on June 29, 2007, at 10:12:33
In reply to Re: Sometimes I feel so guilty... » sunnydays, posted by Squiggles on June 29, 2007, at 5:50:27
Funny how first thing my T said was that I need to see a doctor and get a medical work-up. And he is a therapist with a masters in social work. He practices 'psychological treatments' by talking with me about trauma and my interpersonal relationships. And somehow I feel the best I have ever felt in my life.
sunnydays
Posted by Squiggles on June 29, 2007, at 10:45:05
In reply to Re: Sometimes I feel so guilty...***trigger*** » Squiggles, posted by sunnydays on June 29, 2007, at 10:06:03
I have not had a bad experience with a therapist.
I simply think that they give opinions and nothing
else.Most important though, if you lose yourself
as you say, one time, what makes you think
that after your T shows you where you are,
or who you are, you won't lose yourself again?And is there really any meaningfulness to the
concept of "losing oneself" except in states
of disociation and psychosis?I expect this post will not make through, vis a vis Dory's deputy policy remark.
Squiggles
Posted by Squiggles on June 29, 2007, at 10:50:34
In reply to Re: Sometimes I feel so guilty... » Squiggles, posted by sunnydays on June 29, 2007, at 10:12:33
It's not funny; it's the good luck of finding
a decent social worker who recognizes the treatment necessity outside his/her profession.Squiggles
Posted by muffled on June 29, 2007, at 11:38:52
In reply to breaking my own rule... and um..deputies?, posted by Dory on June 29, 2007, at 9:27:47
I don't think squiggles is trying to make people mad.
I think these posts are how HE feels bout this stuff.
He's entitled to his opinion as are we.
We are welcome to show him our viewpoint so as to try and help him understand where it is we are comming from.
HOWEVER, if it is upsetting to anyone, and they don't feel they can post from a non emotional more rational self, then maybe they are best to leave it to others, or not respond at all.Or respond when they are calmer.
It is SO hard with just written words sometimes to communicate. To understand where the other person is comming from.
Its ESP difficult when its a topic near and dear to us.
So really, I think we can handle this or walk away.
Either way is OK!!! as long as we don't get overly emotional and hurtful and hurt by this discussion.
Not easy I know.
Thanks to all for how well they have done with this difficult topic.
M
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