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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Tamar on January 19, 2007, at 19:19:10
I went to therapy this afternoon. I’ve had a few really hard weeks of paranoia and irrationality. But last week my therapist made a special effort to talk about me to a pdoc who has expertise in diabetes, to ask for some advice (which was very helpful). He also talked to my GP about a change in medication. So it feels again as if he cares about me.
So today I tried to do some ‘real’ therapy and talk about my feelings for him. I told him how frustrated I feel when I tell him I want reassurance or comfort and he ignores or dismisses it. I told him it’s happened over and over. I told him I’ve tried to talk about it before but he always closes down the discussion. I said for a while I thought it was because he felt it was disgusting in some way, and then I came to the conclusion that I didn’t matter enough to him to be a source of disgust, so now I think it’s a theoretical thing, but I still don’t understand it and it drives me nuts.
I also talked to him about my paranoia over Christmas; how I’d seen that he was at the office when I thought he wasn’t working, and how I’d had all these irrational thoughts that he was lying to me. I said that I’m not accustomed to paranoia and I didn’t know where to locate its origins. Then I gave him the finger.
It was so strange. I saw my hand move into a position that looked as if I was giving him the finger, and I quickly brought my arm down to my side. I knew I hadn’t meant to make any particular gesture, so I thought perhaps I’d gotten away with it. I finished my sentence and waited, and he didn’t say anything for a little while.
Then he said, “Maybe I’m over interpreting, but it looked to me as if you gave me the finger.” I blushed long and hard. It was so obviously a kind of Freudian slip. We talked for a bit about unconscious reasons why I might have done it, and I had to admit that it might have been partly a distraction from the conversation we were having, or a way of establishing distance between us. And, weirder still, as it was happening I distinctly noticed that my hand looked like my father’s hand.
I’m still feeling embarrassed, some time later! The idea that I’m not in complete control of what I reveal to him is terrifying. But on the other hand I console myself with the knowledge that it might have been worse. At least I didn’t flash my boobs at him…
Posted by caraher on January 19, 2007, at 19:54:00
In reply to A funny thing happened…, posted by Tamar on January 19, 2007, at 19:19:10
My secret webcam caught that moment of your session... http://www.getamused.com/photos/catgivingthefinger.html
Posted by Llurpsie_Noodle on January 19, 2007, at 20:15:31
In reply to Re: A funny thing happened…, posted by caraher on January 19, 2007, at 19:54:00
Tamar, this is really interesting. Researchers are finding that gestures (you know, we move our hands when we talk) can really express a lot of information that is not conveyed in speech alone.
Sometimes the hands tell a very different story than the voice does. I think it's interesting that you even observed it yourself. Most people are very unconscious of this, but when you get a chance to observe someone explaining something, take a special look at their hands. People might use their hands to organize a disorganized explanation. They might use their hands to say "I have no idea what I'm talking about" even as their voice sounds confident. In your case, your hands acted as a beacon of your true feelings.
It's funny, sometimes our hands are smarter than our words are...
-Ll
very cool stuff!
Posted by happykat on January 19, 2007, at 20:32:00
In reply to A funny thing happened…, posted by Tamar on January 19, 2007, at 19:19:10
Tamar,
Very interesting session. Really interesting that you saw your father's hand. Did you discuss with your t?
I think this is the kind of thing that therapist's love! Very Freudian. Although he might have liked it even more if you flashed your boobs. LOL! :)
Regards,
happykat :)
Posted by happykat on January 19, 2007, at 20:33:00
In reply to Re: A funny thing happened…, posted by Llurpsie_Noodle on January 19, 2007, at 20:15:31
Hi Llurpsie,
I talk with my hands all the time and never considered that it could be a source of unconscious desires or motives or what have you.
I think next week I'm going to sit on my hands! Have you run across any published research or books inparticular on this subject? I'm very interested in this.
Thanks,
happykat :)
Posted by Annierose on January 19, 2007, at 21:56:49
In reply to A funny thing happened…, posted by Tamar on January 19, 2007, at 19:19:10
*** and I had to admit that it might have been partly a distraction from the conversation we were having, or a way of establishing distance between us. ****
Or --- maybe letting him know how MAD you really were when all those things were happening.
Besides mentioning the finger, how did he reply to your feelings of being ignored?
Posted by Poet on January 20, 2007, at 9:56:58
In reply to A funny thing happened…, posted by Tamar on January 19, 2007, at 19:19:10
Hi Tamar,
The finger is definitely better than flashing your T. What's interesting is you saw your father's hands, are you going to tell your T that?
I would be embarrassed if I gave my T the finger, though I honestly don't think it would surprise her if I did. I use the F word in therapy, I've never said F you to her, though. Not yet.
Poet
Posted by Dinah on January 20, 2007, at 12:31:33
In reply to A funny thing happened…, posted by Tamar on January 19, 2007, at 19:19:10
I doubt there is any reason to be embarassed, even if you were giving a clue to your real feelings. Maybe your hands were just trying to help you tell him. :)
I did like the way he responded, at least to that part of it. Did he respond well to what you said with words?
It kind of makes me want to do it next week, just to see what my therapist says. Or if he merely does the same to me in return. (grin)
(Wasn't there a Seinfeld about that? George realized that a waiter kept pointing to things with his middle finger when addressing him, and the more usual index finger when responding to others?)
Posted by Tamar on January 20, 2007, at 17:39:58
In reply to Re: A funny thing happened…, posted by caraher on January 19, 2007, at 19:54:00
> My secret webcam caught that moment of your session... http://www.getamused.com/photos/catgivingthefinger.html
I love it! I'm going to print the picture and take it to therapy next week...
And if you have a secret webcam in my therapist's office, it really is just as well that I didn't flash my boobs ;)
Posted by Tamar on January 20, 2007, at 17:48:42
In reply to Re: A funny thing happened…, posted by Llurpsie_Noodle on January 19, 2007, at 20:15:31
> Tamar, this is really interesting. Researchers are finding that gestures (you know, we move our hands when we talk) can really express a lot of information that is not conveyed in speech alone.
That's why for the first six months I sat on my hands in therapy!
> Sometimes the hands tell a very different story than the voice does. I think it's interesting that you even observed it yourself. Most people are very unconscious of this, but when you get a chance to observe someone explaining something, take a special look at their hands. People might use their hands to organize a disorganized explanation. They might use their hands to say "I have no idea what I'm talking about" even as their voice sounds confident. In your case, your hands acted as a beacon of your true feelings.
I definitely try to organise my speech with my hands. But I hate the idea that they give me away!
> It's funny, sometimes our hands are smarter than our words are...
Yeah, and it freaks me out. And it adds support to my therapist's idea that I'm angry at him (which I am) and I bet he feels really smart now! Grrrr....
Posted by Tamar on January 20, 2007, at 17:55:53
In reply to Re: A funny thing happened… » Tamar, posted by happykat on January 19, 2007, at 20:32:00
> Tamar,
>
> Very interesting session. Really interesting that you saw your father's hand. Did you discuss with your t?I mentioned it, but we didn't go into much detail. The weird thing for me is that I identify my right hand with my mother and my left hand with my father (who is left-handed but rather dyspraxic). The problem with therapy is that is makes me realise just how weird I am...
> I think this is the kind of thing that therapist's love! Very Freudian. Although he might have liked it even more if you flashed your boobs. LOL! :)
I dunno! I reckon if he had any interest in my boobs he would probably not schedule my appointments for the last session on a Friday! (It's crap to notice his lack of interest through his schedule rather than through the process of therapy!)
But yeah, he did seem to get a bit excited about the finger in a Freudian sort of way. Although he quoted the man himself by saying that sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
Posted by Tamar on January 20, 2007, at 18:04:58
In reply to Re: A funny thing happened… » Tamar, posted by Annierose on January 19, 2007, at 21:56:49
> *** and I had to admit that it might have been partly a distraction from the conversation we were having, or a way of establishing distance between us. ****
>
> Or --- maybe letting him know how MAD you really were when all those things were happening.Exactly! He knows it.
> Besides mentioning the finger, how did he reply to your feelings of being ignored?
He asked me if I'd wondered what was on his mind. And I said that I'd imagined pretty much anything and everything. I knew what he was getting at, and in fact the first thing I thought about when all this was going on was that perhaps his partner was being unfaithful. I didn't tell him I'd had that thought because I want to think about it myself for a while before I discuss it with him. It's clearly transferential, but I don't know why. My partner isn't having an affair (unless he's *really* good at covering his tracks) and I've been behaving myself. And I don't think I could say out loud that I'd had thoughts about my therapist even having a partner, let alone that she might be unfaithful!
Posted by Tamar on January 20, 2007, at 18:12:14
In reply to Re: A funny thing happened… » Tamar, posted by Poet on January 20, 2007, at 9:56:58
> Hi Tamar,
>
> The finger is definitely better than flashing your T. What's interesting is you saw your father's hands, are you going to tell your T that?I mentioned it, but I think he was quite interested in the idea that I was unconsciously expressing my anger towards him, so he didn't really get into the father thing. All I know is that when I 'saw' my hand in the finger-shape, I immediately thought of my father's hand. Somehow I was using my father's gesture. And that would make sense if my father made a habit of giving people the finger, but I think I've only seen him do it once or twice, and even then it was in the context of friendly banter.
> I would be embarrassed if I gave my T the finger, though I honestly don't think it would surprise her if I did. I use the F word in therapy, I've never said F you to her, though. Not yet.
Yeah, I haven't said F you to my therapist yet either. But I do use the F word, and most of the other words. The first time I said the C word out loud he laughed somewhat nervously but he didn't actually look too startled.I think I could say "F that" without being embarrassed, buit "F you" seems a little dangerous...
Posted by Tamar on January 20, 2007, at 18:19:52
In reply to Re: A funny thing happened… » Tamar, posted by Dinah on January 20, 2007, at 12:31:33
> I doubt there is any reason to be embarassed, even if you were giving a clue to your real feelings. Maybe your hands were just trying to help you tell him. :)
That's a good way to look at it! Thanks!
> I did like the way he responded, at least to that part of it. Did he respond well to what you said with words?
Better than ever before. He said something about my needing something from him, and perhaps trying to find something appropriate that would work for both of us, but I backed off from that because it all seemed too tangible. I said I didn't want to find a 'thing'; I just want to have the conversation about why I'm looking for comfort and reassurance from him. He seems to think I want him to do something, and that I feel he's withholding it, but really all I want at this stage is for him to engage in conversation...
> It kind of makes me want to do it next week, just to see what my therapist says. Or if he merely does the same to me in return. (grin)
Oh yeah! Imagine it! Oh, I'd love to know what would happen. If he simply does the same to you in return it would seem to signify a level of intimacy and mutual understanding that I'd love to have with my therapist.
> (Wasn't there a Seinfeld about that? George realized that a waiter kept pointing to things with his middle finger when addressing him, and the more usual index finger when responding to others?)
That rings a bell. I'm sure you're right. Actually, I have a colleague who does that, but it doesn't seem to be directed at anyone in particular. Still, it's un-nerving!
Posted by ShortElise on January 24, 2007, at 14:01:52
In reply to A funny thing happened…, posted by Tamar on January 19, 2007, at 19:19:10
OK, here's soomthing I have never been able to understnad about myself - I go to therapy for help, and then, I hesitate to reveal all the pieces of the puzzle! I KNOW this, I KNOW I am prevaricating sometimes, and I KNOW it's got to be counterprodcutive. Though, perhaps, what we do not reaveal reveals more than we realize?
Our T's know that they are a blank canvas onto which we project, transfer, vomit, poop and otherwise toss all of our own stuff. It's not about them. They are supposed to sit there and help us sift through it, and work through the relationship we build with them based on all the detritis we dump on them. They are supposed to have the skills to keep the necessary perspective on all of this. That said, they are people, but hopefully they are well-trained people.
So why are we ashamed? Why do we hold back?
That aside, the day I walked into therapy I accepted that body language sometimes speaks way louder than the words we speak, and I decided NOT to pay any attention to my body language, but to leave it to my therapist, in a sense, to give at least THAT to him freely. I later told him that. BUt come to think of it, we've never discussed it.
ShortE
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