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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by orchid on July 16, 2006, at 2:29:46
Just some random thoughts in my idle time -
Only love and affection can really cure anyone. The Ts may be intelligent, wise, with lot of wisdom and therapeutic knowledge, they might be well versed in using transference and so on. But in the end, what really heals and brings happiness to the patient is the love and affection they can feel and express to the patient. IF they do everything right, but fail to express their love and caring for whatever reason, it simply is a waste of time and effort. It might end up giving insight to the client, but it will never really heal them emotionally.
What say you guys?
Posted by Declan on July 16, 2006, at 3:17:49
In reply to Love and Affection, posted by orchid on July 16, 2006, at 2:29:46
The line was that it should never be love direct, but expressed through insight. I simply don't know. I don't even really know what insight is. I had insight enough (maybe).
Love has to be the way out of the prison, but I'm not sure whether someone loving you gets you there. We are creatures of love (and hate) and fall in love from the beginning, and in love the boundaries of ourselves fall away. Love, and surrender...that's the intersting stuff, hey?
Declan
Posted by scentedgarden on July 16, 2006, at 5:40:30
In reply to Love and Affection, posted by orchid on July 16, 2006, at 2:29:46
hi Orchid !
I've nothing else to say for a change, except that I have to say that's just how i feel right now about it...so, i would say i agree that's sadly all I want to say about this unfortunate reality.......at least that's how i see it. However the previous poster mentioned about the love not being direct or something or other...I guess they are not allowed to simply express their love for us...but i'm sorry to say right now i feel that to a certain extent, at least emotionally it will never heal us...and nothing ever will except love expressed and shared...sorry i just find this really upsetting right now... anyway a timely post far as i'm concerned...cheers!
respect and regards
scentedgarden
Posted by canadagirl on July 16, 2006, at 7:50:52
In reply to Love and Affection, posted by orchid on July 16, 2006, at 2:29:46
Yes I do think that is true. Even though my stuff was all done online (and I am not sure whether this was the best method or not as I've never seen a live person in person!) but when I sometimes read over all the emails we exchanged I feel good all over again because I think I internalized that caring that came through (somewhat). I probably would have given up immediately if I thought the therapist was just using "techniques" on me and didn't really "care".
Posted by Dinah on July 16, 2006, at 9:19:29
In reply to Love and Affection, posted by orchid on July 16, 2006, at 2:29:46
I think it depends a lot on what you're looking for in therapy. Not everyone is looking for the same thing.
You can look on your therapist as an instructor of useful techniques and not give a darn whether or not he is anything but solicitous of your wellbeing. You can look for love and affection in real life relationships.
Maybe that's even the healthiest perspective.
I think it would be very difficult to even learn from an instructor if you thought they disliked you. Biofeedback guy was someone I just went to to learn biofeedback. I didn't care if he felt anything positive for me. But I couldn't handle his negative feelings toward me and left.
On the other hand, in long term psychotherapy I think it helps to believe your therapist cares about you.
Posted by Jost on July 16, 2006, at 10:31:39
In reply to Re: Love and Affection, posted by Dinah on July 16, 2006, at 9:19:29
In therapy ( as opposed to biofeedback, for example) I agree that the therapist has to care a lot. That's not enough, but it's crucial. They also need to know how to help you through (or in light of, in a way shaped by) the caring, or love, too.
I wouldn't call it "technique" because I don't think anyone who's working merely technically can help someone else. Experience and skill, knowing how to, as they say, "use" who you are as a person to find the other person, and to help them, in whatever way you can, as the particular person you are in relation to the particular person the patient is --are the key things, along with caring.
I basically have an interpersonal (or some might call it relational) view of psychoanalysis, or other therapy.
Jost
Posted by ElaineM on July 16, 2006, at 11:15:13
In reply to Love and Affection, posted by orchid on July 16, 2006, at 2:29:46
Orchid: I agree. But I do think that some modes of therapy do not lend themselves to the "relationship" (as Dinah said). Like, short-term CBT, or something like that.
Yet, I think love or caring, is very important, because I assume clients are coming to therapy with someone old, underlying hurt. And I don't know of anything else but love, to heal the wounds of sadness or hate -- Whether it's completely making up for, or re-writing of earlier experiences, or even if it's just gaining the ability to accept another's caring view of yourself. As though continually feeling care coming from your T, you can change "My T 'loves' me. My T 'loves' me....", to "Maybe I love myself too" (or something like that). As though love is contageous.
I know this is only me, but when I was in treatment for the ED, I saw a ton of relapses, but the success stories all had a similar theme -- they got pregnant or married. Some greater love seemed to pull them through -- one more powerful then their self-hate. Obviously, it's not the same for everyone. I know that happily married mothers can still have eating disorders, I only mean to suggest that a deficit of Love seems to be so significant to someone's progress or continued suffering - whatever their issues are.....But this is only what I've witnessed myself.(I don't want to offend anyone with a diff exp.)
Okay, I'll stop. I worry I'm sounding like a cheesy greeting card, or something. All I know is that that "loved" feeling I felt from my last T, and my doctor, helped me so much more that all the educational lectures, or meds combined. It made me feel that maybe I was a human after all.
The thing I wonder is, Do you think it ever matters what gender the (platonic) "love" sender is? Like, I've always wondered if I could feel the same type of caring from a male T.(I'm even more skeptical now) Have you ever felt equally cared for by a male and female T? Just curious.
EL
Posted by Karolina on July 16, 2006, at 12:17:44
In reply to Re: Love and Affection » orchid, posted by ElaineM on July 16, 2006, at 11:15:13
Sometimes I forget that Ts are human too. So I do think that they care about all of their clients, even if it's in different ways.
Also - I know that when I have said negative things to myself like 'I really hate myself', then I would also think 'Other people must hate me too'. So I think that we have to learn how to love ourselves in order to feel loved by others.
-Karolina-
Posted by madeline on July 16, 2006, at 15:13:10
In reply to Love and Affection, posted by orchid on July 16, 2006, at 2:29:46
I simply could not agree more (at least in my case). I am with an absolutely wonderful man now and I know it is because I loved my T and felt loved in return.
It helped me to see that it is okay to be vulnerable and still be loved. It also helped me to see that it was okay to be hurt and still be in love.
Couldn't agree more.
Excellent post.
Maddie
Posted by LadyBug on July 16, 2006, at 16:23:31
In reply to Love and Affection, posted by orchid on July 16, 2006, at 2:29:46
I agree with you. I've talked to my T about this many times and she would tell me that it's not the love that heals and we have to begin to love ourselves. I agree with her, but when you grew up never hearing the words "I love you", or never ever getting a hug from your Mom, it hurts and you long for it. That is my case. I have wanted my T to love me and over the years I am realizing she does love me. She demonstrates her love by helping me find love within myself. I long to hear that I'm loved and I long to have the physical touch of love-a hug. She has a special and unique way of loving. She doensn't hold me or express her love as just that, love, but she still loves me. When I can finally believe that I'm loved or lovable I guess that's when her love will begin to heal me. She says to me, you love me, and I love you. I told her we have a piece of each other and it's true. We've spent many years working on our connection and it's strong. She has helped me come a long way on my journey. I believe it's the LOVE that heals. Love evolves just as we do.
Thanks for the good topic. It melts my heart today.
By the way, my T is coming to visit me at my home sometime soon. I'm having surgery tomorrow, so she offerd to come to my home to visit me. And she said she wants me to use her in the ways that I need her right now. For her to show me she loves me will make me feel wonderful inside.
LadyBug
Posted by pseudoname on July 16, 2006, at 17:22:51
In reply to Love and Affection, posted by orchid on July 16, 2006, at 2:29:46
I guess we are all different. Well, different in where we need help, at any rate.
I would like my therapist or pdoc to *respect* me, hear me out, take me seriously, etc, but I don't think they're in a position to love me. When Ts & pdocs showed that they really were touched by my situation, it was nice, but therapeutically beside the point. (For ME.) I would look for love from somewhere freer, where the relationship could go somewhere. I don't mean just romantic love. For me, the therapy relationship, as I said in the previous thread, is too constrained for me to take seriously the idea that the T loves me.
Where I've gotten respect from a T, it hasn't translated into feeling worthy of respect in the world. Feeling respected is essential for working with them, but it wouldn't itself for me be therapeutic. I've thought it's probably the same for those who need affection from a T, but I'm clearly wedged into a perspective.
But as I've been crawling out of my decades-long depressive dungeon, I'm finding that I undergo therapeutic change by looking to see how much *I* love *others*; I'm surprised to find lots of feeling there sometimes.
I also wonder about cause-and-effect in people who seem cured by being loved. When I was severely depressed, I could not have felt loved by anyone. Maybe now I'd be more open to it — as long as I loved them, I think. (Some confusion; it's a new landscape I'm dealing with.)
Posted by Declan on July 16, 2006, at 18:14:38
In reply to setting for therapy or itself therapeutic, posted by pseudoname on July 16, 2006, at 17:22:51
"But as I've been crawling out of my decades-long depressive dungeon, I'm finding that I undergo therapeutic change by looking to see how much *I* love *others*; I'm surprised to find lots of feeling there sometimes."
That sounds right.Sometimes I'd respect the work I did in therapy. That would not have been possible without a certain amount of love because great demands were made and everything was thrown into question. Sometimes I'd turn up, sit for an hour in a frightful vengeful silence and then leave.
I'd think 'what on earth am I doing?'
Posted by llrrrpp on July 22, 2006, at 15:04:46
In reply to setting for therapy or itself therapeutic, posted by pseudoname on July 16, 2006, at 17:22:51
>>But as I've been crawling out of my decades-long depressive dungeon, I'm finding that I undergo therapeutic change by looking to see how much *I* love *others*; I'm surprised to find lots of feeling there sometimes.
Wow- pseudo, this is so true. I knew I was starting to feel better when I actually *felt* love for my husband again. He hadn't changed- if anything, I was so impressed that he took care of me during the rough spots. What depression did to me was diminish my ability to love and feel loved. When I started to feel better- i actually felt like I was falling in love again.
I'm not sure about having strong personal feelings about T. I guess it's important that he's committed to helping me get better. It's important that he cares enough to do his job well. I'm convinced that he's talented and has a lot to offer- if he's motivated enough to offer it to me, that's all I expect. T has appealed to my love for my husband at various points to help get me through the rough patches, so there's still a role for love in therapy, even if it's not client-T love.
a few disorganized thoughts...
-llp.s. throwing you a rope and a nifty led headlamp to help you make your way out of the dungeon :)
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