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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 22 to 46 of 46. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dinah on April 25, 2006, at 9:47:00
In reply to Re: » Dinah » When you are ready......., posted by 64bowtie on April 25, 2006, at 2:05:01
I am sure you didn't mean it this way, but I felt an overwhelming desire to go back to bed when I read your post.
Posted by Dinah on April 25, 2006, at 9:57:57
In reply to Re: » 64bowtie, posted by Dinah on April 25, 2006, at 9:47:00
or put more energy into trying to rebuild our relationship. Of course, he is who he is to me for the very reason that he's so laid back.
But I am afraid that one way or another I'm going to lose something that was once so important to me, and that I want to be important to me again. And that he isn't going to try to help me with that at all.
I hate to talk about this on board, because it seems to make people uncomfortable.
But my rational side wants to move. All sorts of good reasons. Good rational reasons.
And my emotional side worries about my son being uprooted at about the same age I had my first whateveryouwanttocallit and desparately doesn't want him to have one of those ruin the rest of his life like it did mine. And perhaps even more, my emotional side doesn't want to lose this person who is so very important to me. Or who was so important to me and who I hope to someday be important to me again. My emotional side thinks that life really wouldn't be worth living without him.
And hardest of all to recognize is that there might be an angry nihilist living within. I'm a bit scared to talk about that because it doesn't fit in with my view of myself. But I think it's exerting a strong pull on me right now.
I just wish I could get my therapist to dynamically help me with this. But it's like trying to light a rock on fire.
Posted by happyflower on April 25, 2006, at 13:52:42
In reply to I wish my therapist would fight more, posted by Dinah on April 25, 2006, at 9:57:57
I think it is good for you to talk about this, I think a lot of feel some something simular, maybe not as intense, because you have been with your T a lot longer than most of us have.
I get the anger part. You need your T to be your T , the old one, not the new one. But then if you get what you ask for, then there is also pain of maybe losing that again. Which losing is so hard,especially if you get what you want again and lose it again, and maybe it feels worse than you feel now. I don't think I am making much sense, but I think I get it.
I know I am a little angry at my T and at myself for falling for such a connection, and now it might be ripped away some day because the relationship isn't personal, it's professional.Please write about this, Dinah, because it is helping me, and I bet it is helping a lot of people too. It is a hard topic to discuss, but sometimes you have to talk about the difficult stuff. ((((((Dinah))))
Posted by Dinah on April 25, 2006, at 14:24:52
In reply to Re: I wish my therapist would fight more » Dinah, posted by happyflower on April 25, 2006, at 13:52:42
I'm gonna beg today.
Do you think begging will help?
Posted by orchid on April 25, 2006, at 14:32:34
In reply to I wish my therapist would fight more, posted by Dinah on April 25, 2006, at 9:57:57
> or put more energy into trying to rebuild our relationship. Of course, he is who he is to me for the very reason that he's so laid back.
>
---Orchid
I think the truth is your therapist was always way laid back. And he perhaps will always be that way. And that style was the one that suited you the best in the past, and it is the same trait that is not working for you now. So I think it is you who has changed, and are now wanting something more than what your therapist is willing/capable of giving you. And I think that is the part you are struggling with right now, that you are putting all the effort in making this relationship work, and you are taking all the initiative, and he is continuing to be the same old person instead of recognizing the change in you and change his style to suit your needs now. He perhaps is still thinking of the same old Dinah who was happy to be content with what he was and is still being the same, instead of realizig that Dinah has undergone a severe emotional trauma and that he should be there for you more than he used to be. I think you should tell him that, and ask him to be there for you more.
> But I am afraid that one way or another I'm going to lose something that was once so important to me, and that I want to be important to me again. And that he isn't going to try to help me with that at all.
---Orchid
IT may happen that way. I think part of it also kind of growing up. Some part of you has grown up beyond your therapist's capability, and is now needing something more and you are afraid of losing your home with your T(so to speak).I think what has been happening has so much to do with the fact that you have changed and grown and need more than the fact that he hasn't changed.
>
> I hate to talk about this on board, because it seems to make people uncomfortable.
>
> But my rational side wants to move. All sorts of good reasons. Good rational reasons.
>
> And my emotional side worries about my son being uprooted at about the same age I had my first whateveryouwanttocallit and desparately doesn't want him to have one of those ruin the rest of his life like it did mine. And perhaps even more, my emotional side doesn't want to lose this person who is so very important to me. Or who was so important to me and who I hope to someday be important to me again. My emotional side thinks that life really wouldn't be worth living without him.
----Orchid
I think your above paragraph perfectly tells me that deep down you are realizing it is time to move on. And I think it would have happened either with Katrina or without it.And I think you have realistically two options left. 1. To decide to move on and find a new T.
2. To decide and accept in your mind that your T is not helping you now as much as he could, but continue to see him, simply because you don't feel like going to someone new and re establish everything again. IT is like when people in a marriage grow separate, but yet decide to hang on, for the fear of loneliness and are afraid to put too much effort again - but I think it is perfectly valid to stay in a relationhip because it is comfortable.
>
> And hardest of all to recognize is that there might be an angry nihilist living within. I'm a bit scared to talk about that because it doesn't fit in with my view of myself. But I think it's exerting a strong pull on me right now.
----Orchid
I think you are really very angry deep down. Who wouldn't be? You have lost many things, and it is taking a toll. You have every right to be angry. Don't be afraid of the anger. IT is ok.>
> I just wish I could get my therapist to dynamically help me with this. But it's like trying to light a rock on fire.----Orchid
I have felt that way with my first T - I wished he would come out and say something which would ease my mind and give me some peace. But he never did. And finally I had to accept that it is his style and no matter what I tried, he wouldn't change himself or put the effort to help me out. Maybe he had valid reasons, or maybe he just didn't bother enough. Some people are like that - they simply won't change. You can't do anything about it. And you have to accept it and make a decision about it for yourself.
Posted by fairywings on April 25, 2006, at 14:57:06
In reply to I wish my therapist would fight more, posted by Dinah on April 25, 2006, at 9:57:57
Hi Dinah,
Sounds like on the one hand you're trying to accept your T as he is, and accept how things have changed in your relationship. But on the other hand you're screaming inside for your T to hear how much this is all bothering you... but your logical side won't let you scream about it. I can sure understand wanting to kick that rock to see if it moves!
Hope I wasn't too off base.
fw
Posted by Dinah on April 25, 2006, at 18:54:02
In reply to Re: I wish my therapist would fight more » Dinah, posted by fairywings on April 25, 2006, at 14:57:06
We had an enormous yelling crying fight. Well, he didn't cry. Complete with threats to end the session early if I didn't behave myself.
I guess that's a good start.
I wish he weren't going away for a week tho. I hate to have my last memory of him be him with his arms folded (metaphorically probably but maybe physically) setting limits.
On the other hand, if he even remembers this session when he gets back, I'll be very much surprised. So he likely won't hold a grudge.
I made a couple of tearful apologetic calls to him after the session. Well one apologetic one, and one telling him how he could have done a better job of answering me. But although I know he likely hadn't left his office yet he neither picked up nor returned my calls. I guess it's too soon for him to be charitably disposed to me.
Oh well. A fight's better than impassive, isn't it?
Posted by madeline on April 25, 2006, at 19:49:06
In reply to I kicked the rock, posted by Dinah on April 25, 2006, at 18:54:02
Well, I think one thing is for sure. If there was yelling and threats involved, you probably got your point across that you aren't very happy with him lately. ;)
Be honest, it must have felt a little good to "off load" a few feelings on your T. Right? Maybe?
One question, why would you say "the last memory of him"? Have you decided (logically) to leave therapy and maybe this little spat is helping you to do just that? Maybe way off base, but I do things like that.
Posted by Dinah on April 25, 2006, at 20:04:54
In reply to Re: I kicked the rock, posted by madeline on April 25, 2006, at 19:49:06
It felt good to get a reaction from him.
But as I walked out of the room and looked back, he wasn't smiling and his arms were at least metaphorically crossed and he refused to answer whether things would be ok the way he usually does. He answered by saying it was up to me if things would be ok. And I realized I wouldn't see him for a week and he was going out of town. I've always made a point of parting on good terms with someone who's going away on a trip. So I'm a teensy bit frantic. And I don't know if he's punishing me by not answering my calls, but I can't call him again without being a real pest. Well, a bigger pest, because I think I've already crossed into pest with three phone calls.
He threatened to end the session because I was hitting myself. Not hard. Just hitting myself. And he threatened to end the session and asked what I would do if my son was doing that. And I burst into tears and said that what I'd do and have done is something he couldn't do. Take him and hold him and tell him I knew how much he must be hurting, and I was sorry, but that I loved him too much to see anyone hurt him - even himself. And my therapist muttered something about holding me with his presence and knowing that I was hurting and not being able to tolerate watching me hurt myself.
I think I make a better mom than he does. :(
Posted by happyflower on April 25, 2006, at 20:20:43
In reply to Re: I kicked the rock » madeline, posted by Dinah on April 25, 2006, at 20:04:54
Hey Dinah,
Don't hurt yourself okay? I am glad you were honest with your T and let some steam out. Good for you! I think your T can handle it.
It sounds like you would be a much better mom than him. I wish he could of held you and gave you a big hug, or least made you feel that loved.
We will be here for you this week especially since your T will be gone. I am proud of you today. ;-)
Posted by annierose on April 25, 2006, at 20:40:48
In reply to Re: I kicked the rock » madeline, posted by Dinah on April 25, 2006, at 20:04:54
That was a brave and honest thing to say! And you are right, you are a better mom than your T is --- even though he is your therapist/mommy --- he is a guy, and a guy just can't be a mom --- something to do with double tasking, peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and the left & right brain hemispheres --- I'm pretty sure.
Those pure and honest moments are so good. I'm glad you said exactly what you thought.
My T and I had a vaguely similar conversation. I asked her if she was scared of my rage that I'm holding onto. She replied, "As long as you use words I am not scared. You can tell me that you want to push my bookcase on my head, but if you act on it, throw a book at me, then I would have a problem." I think your T was setting limits with you. Back to being a grown up.
We're here for you this week. You can do this. This of what you have already come through.
Posted by Dinah on April 25, 2006, at 21:13:38
In reply to Re: I kicked the rock » Dinah, posted by annierose on April 25, 2006, at 20:40:48
> My T and I had a vaguely similar conversation. I asked her if she was scared of my rage that I'm holding onto. She replied, "As long as you use words I am not scared. You can tell me that you want to push my bookcase on my head, but if you act on it, throw a book at me, then I would have a problem." I think your T was setting limits with you. Back to being a grown up.
Sometimes limit setting isn't the right response. :( Or even the most effective response. I'd have quit in a minute if he had shown some kindness. Or asked me to quit for him.
He quite understood that I was hitting myself because I would never dream of hitting anyone else (namely him).
He's an insensitive dolt. He kept arguing that he needed to keep therapeutic neutrality about my upcoming potential move. And I kept arguing back that therapeutic neutrality couldn't exist after eleven years. That being neutral was influencing my decision.
And he was doing his equivilant of "warmly".
Insensitive dolt.
Stupid *ssinine insensitive dolt of a male human being. Stupid stupid Y chromosome. Stupid stupid therapeutic neutrality that comes across as a lack of any sort of human caring. Stupid stupid stupid arms crossed limit setting.
So why do I feel so much better? Except for being afraid he'll get hit by a bus and the last thing I'll remember is his stupid stupid crossed arms?
Posted by Dinah on April 25, 2006, at 21:15:33
In reply to Re: I kicked the rock, posted by happyflower on April 25, 2006, at 20:20:43
It felt good to get mad.
He used to be able to make me feel held. He hasn't done that for a long time, I don't think.
Posted by Tamar on April 25, 2006, at 21:40:24
In reply to I kicked the rock, posted by Dinah on April 25, 2006, at 18:54:02
Do you quite often fight before he goes away? Or am I imagining it?
Is he trying to regain some of the therapeutic territory he lost after Katrina? Maybe he sees this as a good time to try to re-establish some therapeotuc distance. I don't know...
I'm glad you feel better.
Tamar
Posted by Dinah on April 25, 2006, at 21:56:07
In reply to (((((Dinah))))) » Dinah, posted by Tamar on April 25, 2006, at 21:40:24
Yeah, I suspect he thinks I got an inflated sense of my importance to him during the storm and he wants to put me back in my place. Or maybe he realizes that he was inappropriately considering my needs instead of concentrating solely on his family and he wants to make sure that never happens again. Or maybe I'm giving him too much credit and he wasn't thinking of anything but dinner.
But I sure handled boundary reminders better than he does. :(
I think we do often fight before trips. I usually make a real point of being extra special careful before a trip but somehow manage to push one of his buttons and distress myself horribly. This time I was itching for a fight though. One seemed long overdue.
He said some hurtful things that I don't think he meant to be hurtful.
Posted by fairywings on April 26, 2006, at 7:02:52
In reply to Re: (((((Dinah))))) » Tamar, posted by Dinah on April 25, 2006, at 21:56:07
Sounds like he was really chilly to you when he was trying to maintain his "neutrality". Did you feel utterly rejected?
How is it going to be for you the next two weeks while he's gone? I'd be so angry with him. I hope you'll post and not keep all the crappy feelings to yourself.
fw
Posted by madeline on April 26, 2006, at 7:04:07
In reply to Re: I kicked the rock, posted by Dinah on April 25, 2006, at 21:13:38
I hear you that you are very very mad and very very hurt. I would be too, slamming into the therapeutic boundary is awful, just awful. I've face-planted against it more times than I can count and it has left me bloody (figuratively) on several occasions.
I bet he is upset too, in fact I bet he is really really upset. After 11 years who wouldn't be? My guess is that he is hiding behind his therapeutic neutrality while he processes the notion that you might be leaving. If this is correct, then his behavior makes perfect sense. It's not easier to take, but it at least is more understandable.
I hope he calls you to ease your mind, but if he doesn't he's probably just thinking about how to help you with your hurt, and his hurt and the hurt of the situation.
But if you want me to come down and kick his therapeutic butt for you, I'll absolutely do that as well. ;)
Take care of yourself. Kiss your dogs for me.
Maddie.
Posted by 64bowtie on April 26, 2006, at 15:11:41
In reply to Re: » 64bowtie, posted by Dinah on April 25, 2006, at 9:47:00
» Dinah »
I so wish all this was easier for you....
Rod
Posted by Dinah on April 27, 2006, at 19:47:46
In reply to » Dinah », posted by 64bowtie on April 26, 2006, at 15:11:41
Posted by Dinah on April 27, 2006, at 19:54:25
In reply to Thanks Rod. (nm), posted by Dinah on April 27, 2006, at 19:47:46
To know that my therapist cares so little about me that he would willingly p*ss away a sure minimum ten thou a year. I mean, he must dislike me for that. I have a pretty good idea what percentage of his regular counseling practice I made up.
Yet he seems to have no trouble doing that at all, despite his clear love of money. He must really dislike being around me.
He didn't bother to return my calls, despite the fact that I specifically asked him to, and despite the fact that he invited me to call him if I needed him.
He's making it really easy to decide to move, because he's making me realize that as far as he's concerned, I've really got no reason to stay.
If he worked for my husband's company he couldn't be doing a better job of convincing me to move. I just don't want to be around here without him. And whether or not he's here I think I'm without him. So now I want to move. At least I'll be bereft alone. Which surely beats being bereft with him here.
Posted by frida on April 27, 2006, at 21:13:53
In reply to You know, it feels really bad, posted by Dinah on April 27, 2006, at 19:54:25
Dear Dinah
this makes me so sad for you..
I do think your T cares about you...I don't understand why he hasn't called you but I do think he does care...
I am so sorry you are hurting and he isn't reassuring you..
I am sorrylove and support
Frida> To know that my therapist cares so little about me that he would willingly p*ss away a sure minimum ten thou a year. I mean, he must dislike me for that. I have a pretty good idea what percentage of his regular counseling practice I made up.
>
> Yet he seems to have no trouble doing that at all, despite his clear love of money. He must really dislike being around me.
>
> He didn't bother to return my calls, despite the fact that I specifically asked him to, and despite the fact that he invited me to call him if I needed him.
>
> He's making it really easy to decide to move, because he's making me realize that as far as he's concerned, I've really got no reason to stay.
>
> If he worked for my husband's company he couldn't be doing a better job of convincing me to move. I just don't want to be around here without him. And whether or not he's here I think I'm without him. So now I want to move. At least I'll be bereft alone. Which surely beats being bereft with him here.
Posted by Dinah on April 27, 2006, at 23:15:27
In reply to Re: You know, it feels really bad » Dinah, posted by frida on April 27, 2006, at 21:13:53
Well, either he's angry enough with me that he doesn't trust himself to talk to me, or he's planning to terminate me, or he's punishing me, or he's drawing boundaries. Or more likely he just forgot because he's busy and I'm not that high on his priority list.
Either way it ends the same. He didn't want to influence my decision towards staying. But I'm going to end up choosing to leave town because of him. Stupid, I know, but there it is.
It hurts a lot, but I guess I've had a long time to get used to it.
Posted by gardenergirl on April 27, 2006, at 23:32:16
In reply to Re: You know, it feels really bad » frida, posted by Dinah on April 27, 2006, at 23:15:27
Dinah,
That's really an awful conflict to be in. It's easy to say that there are boundaries, and it's your decision, blah blah blah, but the history and the relationship between you two is not that simple anymore. At least it doesn't seem to be to me. And I think if he thinks it is, well, perhaps he's denying something that he doesn't want to see in himself?Of course he doesn't want to feel as if he's influenced your decision. But heck, that's not going to prevent you from factoring that in, now is it? (I'm trying to inhibit myself from sending along a forehead flick to him to make him see that). And if you are in a situation where termination seems more likely, you deserve and I think need the opportunity to talk that through honestly. It really doesn't matter what he feels, he needs to be able to tolerate hearing what you feel and think. (Okay, I think the self-injury is a line to draw, but I'm guessing you were not feeling heard and/or understood by him at that moment. Maybe I'm wrong about that.)
I'm of course filtering this through my own experience with my T. But I know he would want me to tell him the things I think or worry or assume he might be thinking or not thinking. And he would be okay hearing them. And it would help. Or at least it usually does. It helps to sort out the projection from the reality, even if the projection might be hurt his feelings.
I guess I'm wondering if you worry about his feelings to the point that it might inhibit you at times, or if he is not so great at managing his feelings and reactions, or if it's some combination of the two. And of course, I don't mean that this dynamic I'm horribly trying to explain is there all the time.
Oh pooey. This is another one of the things where I really need to wave my hands a bit as I'm talking.
And I seem to be in a negative frame of mind recently. Sorry to be so negative about someone I know means a great deal to you.
(((((Dinah)))))) You mean a lot to me, though, and I wish you could have an easy and simple time of things for a bit. Darned life keeps getting more complicated. Pooey.
gg
Posted by Dinah on April 28, 2006, at 0:29:43
In reply to Re: You know, it feels really bad » Dinah, posted by gardenergirl on April 27, 2006, at 23:32:16
You can talk badly about him. I think I loved well but not terribly wisely.
I suppose that's what he'll say. He'll cross his arms and say it's *my* decision, and if I'm stupid enough to decide to uproot my son and leave somewhere I love for somewhere I'm not likely to even like, then it's my choice and has nothing to do with him.
But yes, I am that selfish and stupid. If this had happened less slowly I was selfish and stupid enough to put my other plan in place. This one I can justify in a million ways, even if I personally know that it's because I've just been hurt too often by someone I love and I need to get away from it. And he just happens to be that someone I guess.
Not really his fault. I made him out of wholecloth to suit my needs. He never was my therapist/mommy. He just occupied the same space.
Posted by fallsfall on April 29, 2006, at 10:12:49
In reply to Re: You know, it feels really bad ? gardenergirl, posted by Dinah on April 28, 2006, at 0:29:43
(((((Dinah)))))
I'm sorry. I've been out of communication for a couple of days.
I really wish he could help you. I wish he could. You need something that he can't give you. And it doesn't really matter WHY he can't give it to you - the fact is that he can't. Maybe he is starting to realize that he can't help you.
I'm sorry that you needed to hit yourself to make your point. And I am glad that he put his foot down and wouldn't tolerate that. But I wish that it didn't need to be that intense for you.
We're here. We're listening. We love you.
((((((((((Dinah))))))))))
This is the end of the thread.
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