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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Karolina on April 24, 2006, at 21:55:08
In reply to I get so discouraged sometimes, posted by Dinah on April 24, 2006, at 19:57:44
Hi Dinah,
I know that's a bad, crappy feeling to have. My day has been like that today. All I've done is sleep or try to sit up and watch TV, but it was as if I couldn't even concentrate on whatever was on. And I didn't even feel like returning my friends' calls, it was like I just didn't have the energy to make conversation. When I was in NYC, the place where I worked was pretty easy to get to from my apartment. But it was like as soon as I got to work, before my day even really started, I was exhausted and wanted to collapse.
Since I've been home, I've gotten a physical exam to rule out any other problems aside from my depression and found out that I actually had a phyical problem, which was partly responsible for the exhaustion. Do you think maybe your exhaustion could be from another source besides depression? It's just a thought.
But on days when most of my pain is most definitely mental, my T tells me to just take small steps, that if I can accomplish just one thing in a day, even if it's getting out of bed and walking into another room, or walking outside in my yard - it's doing 'something.' I tend to just lay in my bed for hours dwelling on stuff in my past and it's like I can't move, so it's really hard sometimes to just make myself even get up. But I think the key to that is for people to not pressure themselves. To make small, reasonable goals.
I don't know if what I said really helps, but just wanted to say I understand that feeling and that I hope you feel better soon.
-Karolina-
Posted by Dinah on April 24, 2006, at 22:07:49
In reply to Re: I get so discouraged sometimes, posted by Karolina on April 24, 2006, at 21:55:08
Thanks Karolina.
Heaven only knows that I don't take good enough care of my diabetes. And I was distressed to get back my lab results today to find that my ALT and AST are elevated. They generally are (fatty liver) but 88 ALT is high even for me.
So it could be partly physical.
But I think it's mostly mental.
I just got off a week's vacation. I think sooner or later someone's going to notice I'm not working. :)
Posted by Dinah on April 24, 2006, at 22:10:56
In reply to Re: Dinah, I think Orchid is right, posted by happyflower on April 24, 2006, at 21:38:22
Keeshonds are beautiful. I've ruled out anything too big to easily carry unless I suddenly regain my youthful vigor, but I've always wanted one.
I really admire you Happyflower. Going to the gym, taking part in a race. I think that's terrific.
I guess I'd better go figure out if I've already taken tonight's pills. :(
Posted by fallsfall on April 24, 2006, at 22:15:06
In reply to I get so discouraged sometimes, posted by Dinah on April 24, 2006, at 19:57:44
When I am so tired it is because I want to escape from life. If I am sleeping then I don't have to be conscious.
I don't have anything to suggest. You are in quite a bit of upheaval. Maybe if you can settle down any one piece of your life, it would help. Even if it is just deciding that you will do laundry on the same day each week (having my dryer die was really a blessing. Now I do laundry every Thursday because I take my daughter's and my clothes to the laundrymat to dry them, so I do it all at once for the week. I actually have clean clothes now!). Find some stability somewhere and then build on that?
Some of the larger upheavals will take a little while to settle out (like son's school, hubby's work, your work etc. and therapy).
Try to accomplish stuff when you can, don't sleep if you just can't think of anything else to do - only sleep when you aren't capable of doing anything else. At least that helps me not get completely glued to my bed.
(((((Dinah)))))
And you don't have to brush the whole pack of dogs. Just do one part of one dog today. Or brush during commercials. Let's see. How many dogs do you have? 6? If you brush 1/4 of one dog each day, then they will all get fully brushed each month!
Posted by Dinah on April 24, 2006, at 22:23:49
In reply to Re: I get so discouraged sometimes, posted by fallsfall on April 24, 2006, at 22:15:06
Only five now. And only two need regular brushing. A third is my son's responsibility.
I know I'm sleeping to escape. And that I may well be so lacking in energy because I really don't want to do anything. And I might be giving away my belongings because I'm angry. Or because I'm scared they'll be damaged if another hurricane comes.
I've got a whole scr*w you attitude towards the world that isn't really like me. Or maybe it really is like me but I've never acknowledged it. :)
I can come up with a host of reasons. But I can't stay awake long enough to evaluate them.
Posted by annierose on April 24, 2006, at 22:40:20
In reply to Re: I get so discouraged sometimes » fallsfall, posted by Dinah on April 24, 2006, at 22:23:49
I'm so sorry you are having such a bad few years in a row. Life just isn't fair.
Everyone has their own little methods to help them get "life stuff" done. For me, doing the first errand/chore/whatever of the day is the hardest. But once I get started, I can start stringing more accomplishments together. And for that pile of permission slips, camp forms, thank you notes and the like, I finally sat down tonight and wrote them all out, stamped and ready to mail. I've been staring at this pile for over a month, but once I attacked that first item in the pile, the rest came easier.
I do hope that you can find joy again. Try to see it in your son's eyes. When I feel hopeless, my children are the ones who bring hope to me on a platter daily.
Posted by Daisym on April 25, 2006, at 1:55:16
In reply to Re: I get so discouraged sometimes » fallsfall, posted by Dinah on April 24, 2006, at 22:23:49
I think you are totally entitled to getting discouraged sometimes. Hiding under the covers for a day, or even two can be helpful. You've been through so much, your brain must be tired. Give yourself permission to rest -- fully rest. And then start again.
Are you eating correctly? It sure sounds to me like a bit of a physical funk too. Please check your sugars and drink lots of water.
Hugs,
Daisy
Posted by 64bowtie on April 25, 2006, at 2:05:01
In reply to I get so discouraged sometimes, posted by Dinah on April 24, 2006, at 19:57:44
> It seems like people get better and move on, and I don't really feel like I'm getting better. Yesterday something happened that made me feel like I'm regressing not progressing.
>
*******************
>
> I know I'm not doing as badly as I think I am.
>
> I dunno.
>
> I just want to sleep.
>
> Some times I want to do worse things than sleep. But mostly I just want to sleep.
>
>
><<< » Dinah » When you are ready to change, you can see yourself watching yourself being happy, joyous and free, even when its unlikely... When I complain about my situation, I grow 'TUNNEL-VISION'... If instead, I pull back and see myself watching myself being unwise, choosing a path other than wisdom, I quickly shift to seeing myself watching myself the last time I was happy, joyous and free, and I plot the strategy back to wisdom... I then take those steps necessary to return to that wise state of being, and voi-lah... Happiness, joyfulness, and freedom eventually reemerge... OhByTheWay, I never have to share the credit with any therapist or P-Doc... I do it all myself, and under my own watchful eye that I see watching me...
You are a pretty sturdy person, » Dinah » ... This isn't hocus-pocus or flimmity-flam... It is, however, ancient wisdom forgotten by toooo many folks for toooo long-a-time now... I sense your strength and wisdom... Sharing your success with any therapist seems to deminish your success somehow, don't ya' think??? Afterall, it is YOUR recovery...
avinstitute.net
Posted by fairywings on April 25, 2006, at 7:23:54
In reply to Re: I get so discouraged sometimes » Dinah, posted by Daisym on April 25, 2006, at 1:55:16
Hi dinah,
Seems you've had so much unheaval and uncertainty lately. All of that would have me feeling depressed and running for the covers. Do the best you can, get the rest you need.
Hope you feel better soon,
fw
Posted by happyflower on April 25, 2006, at 8:06:24
In reply to Re: Dinah, I think Orchid is right » happyflower, posted by Dinah on April 24, 2006, at 22:10:56
> I really admire you Happyflower. Going to the gym, taking part in a race. I think that's terrific.Thanks Dinah, that is sweet of you to say. Just remember I am just trying to fill up the huge void in my life from my marriage. I told my T I was tired of him saying how good I am doing because I am not. Well he knows, but he said that the stuff I am doing is still good but it won't cover the hole, itis too big of a gap.
I met this delightful lady at the gym. She is like 67, and she asked me one day if I would walk a couple of laps around the track with her because I look like I am so motivated, and she wanted some of that to rub off on her.
Well after talking to her for a month now, she has diabetes, shots and all. Well I know when she gets tired, she just sleeps, anywhere!She deceided to join me in yoga class and when we were doing the relaxation part at the end, she fell asleep! She is like no I didn't . I said well do you snore while you are awake? LOL She said no, I told her you were sleeping! It was funny, but she told me she easily falls asleep, even at the dentist getting her teeth cleaned. LOL
So Dinah, get your butt to the doctors to rule out anything else. But you know stress make me want to sleep. It is the best thing for it! ((((Dinah)))) When do you see your T next?
Posted by Dinah on April 25, 2006, at 9:05:43
In reply to Re: Dinah, I think Orchid is right, posted by happyflower on April 25, 2006, at 8:06:24
I go to the internist every three months, or at least I did with my old one. Not sure about the new one. But I do know I'm supposed to be tested again six weeks from my last test because they put me on a new med, and the ALT and AST numbers were circled with the retest instructions next to them, so that may be it too.
Daisy, I'm glad you mentioned water. The weather is unseasonably warm, even for here, and I might not be drinking enough.
The body affects the mind and the mind affects the body and it's hard to sort it all out.
I do want to retract what I said about not caring. The fates might be listening, and of course I care.
My therapist wanted to see me today before he heads out of town tomorrow, and I'm hoping either I can drive to him or he'll be in town shortly after he gets back. I desparately need a connection right now. Something to hold onto...
Thanks everyone.
Posted by happyflower on April 25, 2006, at 9:22:33
In reply to Re: Dinah, I think Orchid is right, posted by Dinah on April 25, 2006, at 9:05:43
Ohhh, I hope you get in to see your T !!!! Let us know how it goes. I will be thinking of you!
Posted by Dinah on April 25, 2006, at 9:47:00
In reply to Re: » Dinah » When you are ready......., posted by 64bowtie on April 25, 2006, at 2:05:01
I am sure you didn't mean it this way, but I felt an overwhelming desire to go back to bed when I read your post.
Posted by Dinah on April 25, 2006, at 9:57:57
In reply to Re: » 64bowtie, posted by Dinah on April 25, 2006, at 9:47:00
or put more energy into trying to rebuild our relationship. Of course, he is who he is to me for the very reason that he's so laid back.
But I am afraid that one way or another I'm going to lose something that was once so important to me, and that I want to be important to me again. And that he isn't going to try to help me with that at all.
I hate to talk about this on board, because it seems to make people uncomfortable.
But my rational side wants to move. All sorts of good reasons. Good rational reasons.
And my emotional side worries about my son being uprooted at about the same age I had my first whateveryouwanttocallit and desparately doesn't want him to have one of those ruin the rest of his life like it did mine. And perhaps even more, my emotional side doesn't want to lose this person who is so very important to me. Or who was so important to me and who I hope to someday be important to me again. My emotional side thinks that life really wouldn't be worth living without him.
And hardest of all to recognize is that there might be an angry nihilist living within. I'm a bit scared to talk about that because it doesn't fit in with my view of myself. But I think it's exerting a strong pull on me right now.
I just wish I could get my therapist to dynamically help me with this. But it's like trying to light a rock on fire.
Posted by happyflower on April 25, 2006, at 13:52:42
In reply to I wish my therapist would fight more, posted by Dinah on April 25, 2006, at 9:57:57
I think it is good for you to talk about this, I think a lot of feel some something simular, maybe not as intense, because you have been with your T a lot longer than most of us have.
I get the anger part. You need your T to be your T , the old one, not the new one. But then if you get what you ask for, then there is also pain of maybe losing that again. Which losing is so hard,especially if you get what you want again and lose it again, and maybe it feels worse than you feel now. I don't think I am making much sense, but I think I get it.
I know I am a little angry at my T and at myself for falling for such a connection, and now it might be ripped away some day because the relationship isn't personal, it's professional.Please write about this, Dinah, because it is helping me, and I bet it is helping a lot of people too. It is a hard topic to discuss, but sometimes you have to talk about the difficult stuff. ((((((Dinah))))
Posted by Dinah on April 25, 2006, at 14:24:52
In reply to Re: I wish my therapist would fight more » Dinah, posted by happyflower on April 25, 2006, at 13:52:42
I'm gonna beg today.
Do you think begging will help?
Posted by orchid on April 25, 2006, at 14:32:34
In reply to I wish my therapist would fight more, posted by Dinah on April 25, 2006, at 9:57:57
> or put more energy into trying to rebuild our relationship. Of course, he is who he is to me for the very reason that he's so laid back.
>
---Orchid
I think the truth is your therapist was always way laid back. And he perhaps will always be that way. And that style was the one that suited you the best in the past, and it is the same trait that is not working for you now. So I think it is you who has changed, and are now wanting something more than what your therapist is willing/capable of giving you. And I think that is the part you are struggling with right now, that you are putting all the effort in making this relationship work, and you are taking all the initiative, and he is continuing to be the same old person instead of recognizing the change in you and change his style to suit your needs now. He perhaps is still thinking of the same old Dinah who was happy to be content with what he was and is still being the same, instead of realizig that Dinah has undergone a severe emotional trauma and that he should be there for you more than he used to be. I think you should tell him that, and ask him to be there for you more.
> But I am afraid that one way or another I'm going to lose something that was once so important to me, and that I want to be important to me again. And that he isn't going to try to help me with that at all.
---Orchid
IT may happen that way. I think part of it also kind of growing up. Some part of you has grown up beyond your therapist's capability, and is now needing something more and you are afraid of losing your home with your T(so to speak).I think what has been happening has so much to do with the fact that you have changed and grown and need more than the fact that he hasn't changed.
>
> I hate to talk about this on board, because it seems to make people uncomfortable.
>
> But my rational side wants to move. All sorts of good reasons. Good rational reasons.
>
> And my emotional side worries about my son being uprooted at about the same age I had my first whateveryouwanttocallit and desparately doesn't want him to have one of those ruin the rest of his life like it did mine. And perhaps even more, my emotional side doesn't want to lose this person who is so very important to me. Or who was so important to me and who I hope to someday be important to me again. My emotional side thinks that life really wouldn't be worth living without him.
----Orchid
I think your above paragraph perfectly tells me that deep down you are realizing it is time to move on. And I think it would have happened either with Katrina or without it.And I think you have realistically two options left. 1. To decide to move on and find a new T.
2. To decide and accept in your mind that your T is not helping you now as much as he could, but continue to see him, simply because you don't feel like going to someone new and re establish everything again. IT is like when people in a marriage grow separate, but yet decide to hang on, for the fear of loneliness and are afraid to put too much effort again - but I think it is perfectly valid to stay in a relationhip because it is comfortable.
>
> And hardest of all to recognize is that there might be an angry nihilist living within. I'm a bit scared to talk about that because it doesn't fit in with my view of myself. But I think it's exerting a strong pull on me right now.
----Orchid
I think you are really very angry deep down. Who wouldn't be? You have lost many things, and it is taking a toll. You have every right to be angry. Don't be afraid of the anger. IT is ok.>
> I just wish I could get my therapist to dynamically help me with this. But it's like trying to light a rock on fire.----Orchid
I have felt that way with my first T - I wished he would come out and say something which would ease my mind and give me some peace. But he never did. And finally I had to accept that it is his style and no matter what I tried, he wouldn't change himself or put the effort to help me out. Maybe he had valid reasons, or maybe he just didn't bother enough. Some people are like that - they simply won't change. You can't do anything about it. And you have to accept it and make a decision about it for yourself.
Posted by fairywings on April 25, 2006, at 14:57:06
In reply to I wish my therapist would fight more, posted by Dinah on April 25, 2006, at 9:57:57
Hi Dinah,
Sounds like on the one hand you're trying to accept your T as he is, and accept how things have changed in your relationship. But on the other hand you're screaming inside for your T to hear how much this is all bothering you... but your logical side won't let you scream about it. I can sure understand wanting to kick that rock to see if it moves!
Hope I wasn't too off base.
fw
Posted by Dinah on April 25, 2006, at 18:54:02
In reply to Re: I wish my therapist would fight more » Dinah, posted by fairywings on April 25, 2006, at 14:57:06
We had an enormous yelling crying fight. Well, he didn't cry. Complete with threats to end the session early if I didn't behave myself.
I guess that's a good start.
I wish he weren't going away for a week tho. I hate to have my last memory of him be him with his arms folded (metaphorically probably but maybe physically) setting limits.
On the other hand, if he even remembers this session when he gets back, I'll be very much surprised. So he likely won't hold a grudge.
I made a couple of tearful apologetic calls to him after the session. Well one apologetic one, and one telling him how he could have done a better job of answering me. But although I know he likely hadn't left his office yet he neither picked up nor returned my calls. I guess it's too soon for him to be charitably disposed to me.
Oh well. A fight's better than impassive, isn't it?
Posted by madeline on April 25, 2006, at 19:49:06
In reply to I kicked the rock, posted by Dinah on April 25, 2006, at 18:54:02
Well, I think one thing is for sure. If there was yelling and threats involved, you probably got your point across that you aren't very happy with him lately. ;)
Be honest, it must have felt a little good to "off load" a few feelings on your T. Right? Maybe?
One question, why would you say "the last memory of him"? Have you decided (logically) to leave therapy and maybe this little spat is helping you to do just that? Maybe way off base, but I do things like that.
Posted by Dinah on April 25, 2006, at 20:04:54
In reply to Re: I kicked the rock, posted by madeline on April 25, 2006, at 19:49:06
It felt good to get a reaction from him.
But as I walked out of the room and looked back, he wasn't smiling and his arms were at least metaphorically crossed and he refused to answer whether things would be ok the way he usually does. He answered by saying it was up to me if things would be ok. And I realized I wouldn't see him for a week and he was going out of town. I've always made a point of parting on good terms with someone who's going away on a trip. So I'm a teensy bit frantic. And I don't know if he's punishing me by not answering my calls, but I can't call him again without being a real pest. Well, a bigger pest, because I think I've already crossed into pest with three phone calls.
He threatened to end the session because I was hitting myself. Not hard. Just hitting myself. And he threatened to end the session and asked what I would do if my son was doing that. And I burst into tears and said that what I'd do and have done is something he couldn't do. Take him and hold him and tell him I knew how much he must be hurting, and I was sorry, but that I loved him too much to see anyone hurt him - even himself. And my therapist muttered something about holding me with his presence and knowing that I was hurting and not being able to tolerate watching me hurt myself.
I think I make a better mom than he does. :(
Posted by happyflower on April 25, 2006, at 20:20:43
In reply to Re: I kicked the rock » madeline, posted by Dinah on April 25, 2006, at 20:04:54
Hey Dinah,
Don't hurt yourself okay? I am glad you were honest with your T and let some steam out. Good for you! I think your T can handle it.
It sounds like you would be a much better mom than him. I wish he could of held you and gave you a big hug, or least made you feel that loved.
We will be here for you this week especially since your T will be gone. I am proud of you today. ;-)
Posted by annierose on April 25, 2006, at 20:40:48
In reply to Re: I kicked the rock » madeline, posted by Dinah on April 25, 2006, at 20:04:54
That was a brave and honest thing to say! And you are right, you are a better mom than your T is --- even though he is your therapist/mommy --- he is a guy, and a guy just can't be a mom --- something to do with double tasking, peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and the left & right brain hemispheres --- I'm pretty sure.
Those pure and honest moments are so good. I'm glad you said exactly what you thought.
My T and I had a vaguely similar conversation. I asked her if she was scared of my rage that I'm holding onto. She replied, "As long as you use words I am not scared. You can tell me that you want to push my bookcase on my head, but if you act on it, throw a book at me, then I would have a problem." I think your T was setting limits with you. Back to being a grown up.
We're here for you this week. You can do this. This of what you have already come through.
Posted by Dinah on April 25, 2006, at 21:13:38
In reply to Re: I kicked the rock » Dinah, posted by annierose on April 25, 2006, at 20:40:48
> My T and I had a vaguely similar conversation. I asked her if she was scared of my rage that I'm holding onto. She replied, "As long as you use words I am not scared. You can tell me that you want to push my bookcase on my head, but if you act on it, throw a book at me, then I would have a problem." I think your T was setting limits with you. Back to being a grown up.
Sometimes limit setting isn't the right response. :( Or even the most effective response. I'd have quit in a minute if he had shown some kindness. Or asked me to quit for him.
He quite understood that I was hitting myself because I would never dream of hitting anyone else (namely him).
He's an insensitive dolt. He kept arguing that he needed to keep therapeutic neutrality about my upcoming potential move. And I kept arguing back that therapeutic neutrality couldn't exist after eleven years. That being neutral was influencing my decision.
And he was doing his equivilant of "warmly".
Insensitive dolt.
Stupid *ssinine insensitive dolt of a male human being. Stupid stupid Y chromosome. Stupid stupid therapeutic neutrality that comes across as a lack of any sort of human caring. Stupid stupid stupid arms crossed limit setting.
So why do I feel so much better? Except for being afraid he'll get hit by a bus and the last thing I'll remember is his stupid stupid crossed arms?
Posted by Dinah on April 25, 2006, at 21:15:33
In reply to Re: I kicked the rock, posted by happyflower on April 25, 2006, at 20:20:43
It felt good to get mad.
He used to be able to make me feel held. He hasn't done that for a long time, I don't think.
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