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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by alexandra_k on July 21, 2005, at 19:01:23
What DID / MPD has to show us about the nature of the self:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/write/20050621/msgs/531091.html
Posted by Dinah on July 21, 2005, at 19:03:31
In reply to Yet another rave..., posted by alexandra_k on July 21, 2005, at 19:01:23
:(
I'm afraid I'm not smart enough for that one.
Posted by alexandra_k on July 21, 2005, at 19:24:54
In reply to Re: Yet another rave... » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on July 21, 2005, at 19:03:31
Thats ok. I get a little lost myself :-(
Posted by alexandra_k on July 21, 2005, at 19:29:45
In reply to Re: Yet another rave... » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on July 21, 2005, at 19:24:54
Its about...
Whether alters are selves or not.
Some theorists say that yes they are. People with DID have multiple selves.
Some theorists say that alters are fragments or parts of the greater self that is their summation. So pre integration people with DID don't get to have a self :-(
Some theorists say that the self is a fiction or a construct, so actually, nobody has a self.So...
What are selves supposed to be anyway???
Posted by Dinah on July 21, 2005, at 19:36:43
In reply to Re: Yet another rave..., posted by alexandra_k on July 21, 2005, at 19:29:45
Persistent ways of viewing and interacting with the world? A sense of being?
I'm not altogether sure there is a unified self. I think there may be tendencies instead.
Sounds like one for you philosophers. :)
I know that for me to do whatever on earth I do, there is some element of self hypnosis. So I tend to think of it as layers of consciousness. With a will.
With self hypnosis I can get to a more authentic and honest level of awareness, and that level of consciousness just happens to will different things than my more superficial level.
Posted by alexandra_k on July 21, 2005, at 19:51:21
In reply to Re: Yet another rave... » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on July 21, 2005, at 19:36:43
>>So...
>>What are selves supposed to be anyway???I meant that that was what the paper was about...
> Persistent ways of viewing and interacting with the world? A sense of being?
Yeah. Its unpacking that that is hard... Though I used to be more of a behaviourist than I am today and so the paper is fairly behaviourist...
> I'm not altogether sure there is a unified self. I think there may be tendencies instead.
Dennett says...
What is a centre of gravity?
There isn't a 'thing' at a particular point that actually is a centre of gravity. A centre of gravity is a 'useful abstraction'. Physicists posit this useful abstraction so as to make predictions as to the behaviour of objects (whether they will fall over or not).
What is a self?
There isn't a 'thing' at a particular point that actually is a self. A self is a 'useful abstraction'. Psychologists (and we are 'folk-psychologists in our daily lives) posit this useful abstraction so as to make predictions as to the behaviour of people (what they are going to do next).
> Sounds like one for you philosophers. :)Yeah :-)
But Dennett also wants to say that centres of gravity are useful abstractions that are real in a sense... Whereas selves are useful abstractions that are completely fictional...
I reckon that the way he goes on one should be the same as the way he goes on the other.
And so try to argue that there is a realist aspect to selves.
(Being a behaviourist I'm ashamed to admit I was a bit of a pragmatist too...)
Posted by henrietta on July 21, 2005, at 20:14:26
In reply to Re: Yet another rave..., posted by alexandra_k on July 21, 2005, at 19:51:21
This is completely off topic, I'm sure; I'm dead tired, not focusing well, various disasters today, but for some reason, Alex, I wanted to ask if you like Iris Murdoch.
(I love her.)
(Sometimes you make me think of her....which is a marvelous thing, in my book.)
Hen
Posted by alexandra_k on July 21, 2005, at 20:30:30
In reply to Re: Yet another rave... » alexandra_k, posted by henrietta on July 21, 2005, at 20:14:26
> Iris Murdoch.
Who??
Posted by henrietta on July 23, 2005, at 8:13:57
In reply to Re: Yet another rave... » henrietta, posted by alexandra_k on July 21, 2005, at 20:30:30
She was a philosopher and novelist. Died in 1999. Taught at Oxford. Her novels are among my favorite works of literature, and Metaphysics As
A Guide To Morals ain't bad, either. A Platonist.
Here's a nice quote: "Good is the reality of which God is the dream." Or this: "Virtue is the attempt to pierce the veil of selfish consciousness and join the world as it really is. It is an empirical fact about human nature that this attempt cannot be entirely successful."
Another favorite quote: "Only the very greatest art invigorates without consoling."
But I see these random quotes don't begin to give a sense of her. So I'll stop.
Best,
hen
Posted by cricket on July 25, 2005, at 15:49:39
In reply to Re: Yet another rave..., posted by alexandra_k on July 21, 2005, at 19:29:45
Hi Alex,
This is really over my head too, but I thought I would weigh in.
"Some theorists say that the self is a fiction or a construct, so actually, nobody has a self."
Is that Dennett?
That's exactly what my therapist would say.
It does tie in with the Buddhist idea of emptiness. There is no independently existing self. It arises dependent on causes and conditions.
You've certainly intrigued me. Which would be a good book by Dennett to start with? I think my therapist once recommended Consciousness Explained.
Posted by alexandra_k on July 25, 2005, at 17:02:32
In reply to Re: Yet another rave... » alexandra_k, posted by cricket on July 25, 2005, at 15:49:39
> This is really over my head too.
Yeah. I'm thinking that the writing style really isn't helping... I wrote this years ago now. It was the first bit of research I had done. The longest thing I had ever written. And I picked the topic all by myself :-)
But... I get that it is fairly incomprehensible... Probably too much editing trying to get it perfect. End up with about 5 or 6 ideas to one highly convoluted sentance...
> "Some theorists say that the self is a fiction or a construct, so actually, nobody has a self."
> Is that Dennett?Um... Dennett ends up saying that the self is a fiction, yes. This is the main psychology / philosophy line. That there isn't any such thing as a self. I pretty much agree with Dennett... But...
With respect to the mind he tried to 'achieve the mid-point between realism and anti-realism'. Thats a hard place to be... Everyone tries to push you off and classify you one way or the other. But I like what he has to say there (although I managed to go from behaviourism -> dennett -> functionalism). Most people classify him as a fictionalist / interpretationist about the mind and I would say to them 'have you read "Real Patterns"? Yes? Still think he is a fictionalist / interpretationist? Then read HARDER!' Because it is obvious that he is not. He says that quite clearly...
Anyway... My point is that he 'tries to achieve the mid-point between realism and anti-realism' regarding what minds are.
So... Given his account of what selves are (which I don't think I can explain simply...)
selves must have the same metaphysical status as the mind...
Thus: there is a realist aspect to the self that has been largely ignored.
So... In order to be consistent he really needs to say that selves have equivalent metaphysical status to minds.I wrote him an email and told him so...
I didn't dare send the paper
(I can see that it isn't very well written).
I got a response :-)
Something like
'Interesting...'
I'm sure he gets a lot of emails.> That's exactly what my therapist would say.
Yeah. Most psychologists and most philosophers...
> You've certainly intrigued me. Which would be a good book by Dennett to start with? I think my therapist once recommended Consciousness Explained.I LOVE that book... Some parts / chapters are a terrific read. Some parts / chapters are a bit technical... He is one of those authors who attempt to write 'for the general educated reader' but seeing as he is a philosopher he doesn't quite manage to pull it off...
I would suggest that a place to start would be online... I'll see if I can find a link to some of his easier going stuff on the self... (Not to say it will be easy but it should be fairly comprehensible with a lot of effort).
'The Origins of Selves'
http://ase.tufts.edu/cogstud/papers/originss.htmGot it from here:
Posted by alexandra_k on July 25, 2005, at 18:13:27
In reply to Re: Yet another rave...for iris » alexandra_k, posted by henrietta on July 23, 2005, at 8:13:57
:-)
I hadn't heard of her.
I hope you will come back and tell me more...
Posted by cricket on July 26, 2005, at 10:06:54
In reply to Re: Yet another rave... » cricket, posted by alexandra_k on July 25, 2005, at 17:02:32
>
> Yeah. I'm thinking that the writing style really isn't helping... I wrote this years ago now. It was the first bit of research I had done. The longest thing I had ever written. And I picked the topic all by myself :-)I'm impressed. I don't think it's the writing style at all. It's just that it requires a bit more work on my part than I am used to doing in Babble.
> Um... Dennett ends up saying that the self is a fiction, yes. This is the main psychology / philosophy line. That there isn't any such thing as a self. I pretty much agree with Dennett... But...
Yes, I agree too. But... when you really let that sink in, not just an intellectual understanding, don't you feel a bit like you're teetering on the edge of an abyss?
>
> I would suggest that a place to start would be online... I'll see if I can find a link to some of his easier going stuff on the self... (Not to say it will be easy but it should be fairly comprehensible with a lot of effort).
>
> 'The Origins of Selves'
> http://ase.tufts.edu/cogstud/papers/originss.htm
>
> Got it from here:
>
> http://ase.tufts.edu/cogstud/pubpage.htmThanks so much Alex for the links. As soon as I get a chance, I will poke around.
This is the end of the thread.
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