Psycho-Babble Psychology Thread 488013

I tried finding floral ones. And yellow ones. And pink ones (and even yellow AND pink ones). I know you used to be able to get 'em.
Couldn't find them in docs. But found some yellow boots Dinah
http://www.steel-boots.com/shop/10-eyelet-boots/10eyefyellow.html
:-)
They also come in shoes and 6, 8, 10, and 15 (?) high...
You used to be able to get docs with the union jack on them :-)

He's FORGOTTEN

Posted by Dinah on May 2, 2005, at 12:10:04

In reply to Toe protection, posted by Dinah on April 28, 2005, at 9:29:07

He made it clear today he's forgotten other things too, but those aren't important because I can tell him again.
I can't believe it. I told him twice because he forgot once. And still he's forgotten that if he ever terminates me he needs to have me committed. He said that on the chance that he ever terminated me, he'd do it slowly over five or six weeks. He FORGOT. And what's the use of telling him again? he'll just forget again.
I feel like bringing a big red marker next time and telling him to write it on my file because it's important. But then, maybe I shouldn't bother. The whole point in telling him was because I promised to let him help me. But I told him my plan and he FORGOT.

Re: He's FORGOTTEN » Dinah

Posted by Susan47 on May 2, 2005, at 13:08:17

In reply to He's FORGOTTEN, posted by Dinah on May 2, 2005, at 12:10:04

But, isn't it a good thing that he forgot, I mean, doesn't that mean he sees you as able to handle more, emotionally, because you're getting stronger?

But my plan hasn't changed » Susan47

Posted by Dinah on May 2, 2005, at 13:49:22

In reply to Re: He's FORGOTTEN » Dinah, posted by Susan47 on May 2, 2005, at 13:08:17

So if he doesn't remember what I did the courtesy of telling him, it could have life or death consequences.
Oh well, you can't make someone remember.
But you think they *would*.

Re: But my plan hasn't changed

Posted by Susan47 on May 2, 2005, at 15:20:49

In reply to But my plan hasn't changed » Susan47, posted by Dinah on May 2, 2005, at 13:49:22

Well, the only way I can see out of this one, if I'm understanding it correctly, is for you to misbehave. You know, don't seem so rational.

I called him once I was fully rational

Posted by Dinah on May 2, 2005, at 16:30:34

In reply to Re: But my plan hasn't changed, posted by Susan47 on May 2, 2005, at 15:20:49

Told him to get a red pen and write it on my folder to have me committed when terminating me. That I've told him twice before, he's forgotten twice before, and that it's too darn important for him to keep forgetting.
He says he did remember, he just doesn't mention it.
I'm not sure whether to believe him or not. I've always thought he never actually tells a blatant lie, yet saying that makes what he said in session make no sense whatsoever.
Oh well, I've done all that I can do.

Re: I called him once I was fully rational

Posted by annierose on May 2, 2005, at 21:03:43

In reply to I called him once I was fully rational, posted by Dinah on May 2, 2005, at 16:30:34

5 or 6 weeks ... that's no time at all.
If my t ever has to terminate me, I hope we get at a year to sort through everything, but I'll still fall apart.

Re: I called him once I was fully rational

Posted by gardenergirl on May 3, 2005, at 0:01:14

In reply to Re: I called him once I was fully rational, posted by annierose on May 2, 2005, at 21:03:43

Actually, what I was taught in school is that for long term therapy, termination SHOULD take up to a year. You can't wrap up such an important relationship in a shortened period of time, if you are doing a planned termination. I think it needs almost equal weight with all the other important main issues you bring to therapy. And the literature seems to agree with me, but that's from a psychodynamic standpoint. And I suppose it is also the case in other therapies when the relationship is the key aspect of it.
I think some models even advocate for setting a termination date right from the beginning. Some say stick to it no matter what, and others say it can be flexible, but the point they make is that termination should be brought up from day one, as it's so important.
(I'm picturing my supervisor getting an ulcer if he read this from me.)
gg

Re: I called him once I was fully rational » Dinah

Posted by Susan47 on May 3, 2005, at 10:16:28

In reply to I called him once I was fully rational, posted by Dinah on May 2, 2005, at 16:30:34

They don't like to do what we tell them to do, just because we told them to do it. They have minds of their own, and yeah, they lie. But you know Dinah, I'm sure he has good reasons for what he's saying and doing, I believe he does.

Well, the thing is

Posted by Dinah on May 3, 2005, at 13:10:59

In reply to Re: I called him once I was fully rational » Dinah, posted by Susan47 on May 3, 2005, at 10:16:28

My plan is to kill myself, and I really don't think it's very professional of him to forget that.
I didn't tell him that directly of course, because moving that thought from something I thought to something I told him would move it into something manipulative and that I won't do.
But I told him enough that he understood it was important to arrange protection for me.
I'm not trying to tell him what to do. My more rational self is trying to save my life. My less rational side is happy he forgets.

Re: Well, the thing is » Dinah

Posted by Susan47 on May 3, 2005, at 15:39:38

In reply to Well, the thing is, posted by Dinah on May 3, 2005, at 13:10:59

Maybe if you bring these posts in or something, would that help him take you the way you need him to? You're too good at fooling him, obviously.

Re: Well, the thing is » Dinah

Posted by Pfinstegg on May 3, 2005, at 17:14:15

In reply to Well, the thing is, posted by Dinah on May 3, 2005, at 13:10:59

Dinah, I know how honest and thoughtful you are, but, from your T's point of view, how you are thinking and feeling about a theoretical termination may seem manipulative. You haven't left any room for mutual discussion or fruitful compromise about the subject. Hard as termination is, it's essential to keep in mind and also to discuss, I believe, as it helps us to keep growing and defining our goals, and getting ready eventually to mourn the loss of our T's, but still be able tgo live a full life within ourselves, and in our worlds. I haven't seen anyone else on the boards implicitly insisting on forever therapy..with horrible consequences if your T doesn't comply. I think you are limiting your own potential, perhaps even more than you are limiting his ability to make clinical judgements.

Re: Well, the thing is » Pfinstegg

Posted by Dinah on May 3, 2005, at 17:20:45

In reply to Re: Well, the thing is » Dinah, posted by Pfinstegg on May 3, 2005, at 17:14:15

Wouldn't it be more manipulative to tell him? If I don't, it has no chance of affecting his actions and therefore I can't possibly be being manipulative. It's a private decision.
If I tell him, it's a threat. And that would be just plain rude of me.
I told him I'd need time in a hospital, and we even discussed the mechanism of how it would work. He just forgot, that's all.

it amazes me..... » Dinah

Posted by shrinking violet on May 3, 2005, at 19:00:15

In reply to Well, the thing is, posted by Dinah on May 3, 2005, at 13:10:59

.....that you can tell your T indirectly of your "plan" and he allows the conversation and doesn't hit the ceiling. My T reacts to every little thing I tell her (which is probably why she doesn't know much).
>> My plan is to kill myself, and I really don't think it's very professional of him to forget that.
>> I didn't tell him that directly of course, because moving that thought from something I thought to something I told him would move it into something manipulative and that I won't do.
--Is your termination with him looming, or is it a someday-in-the-distant-future sort of thing? Perhaps he hopes/believes that you'll feel differently down the road, that your feeling that way now is normal for a client but at some point your feelings/ideas/thoughts about erasing your existence (or, as he knows, that you'll need personal protection and outside safety measures) because of him will change. I guess that would be a lot of weight on a person, knowing that he literally has his life in your hands (yes, he does anyway b/c he is a T, and that's what they do, but I think that's more ephemeral on some levels and not as concrete as your proposing).
--I see your concern about the "manipulative" theory. I guess I feel the same, especially now since I have one session with my T left.....part of me wants to tell her my "plans," how badly I'm feeling, how scared I am, etc, and it doesn't all have to do with her....I think if at least one other part of my life was going well, I'd have something to hold onto, but I don't, so, losing the one person in my life who I have such an intense closeness with is bringing down the house of cards.
>> But I told him enough that he understood it was important to arrange protection for me.
--Maybe he put it in the very back of his head. Maybe he needed to block it out in order to keep functioning with you. Imagine having a weight like that on the forefront of your mind while trying to objectively and ethically help a client in the present?
>> I'm not trying to tell him what to do. My more rational self is trying to save my life. My less rational side is happy he forgets.
--Yes, I understand this too. I guess that's why part of me posts here, and say the things I do when I know I shouldn't; why part of me wants to email the link to my recent post to my T (the rational self part).....Yet I don't (the other side and, as you mentioned, I don't want to seem manipulative, etc, which I think is how my T would see it at this point, and that would be much worse than anything).
I'm sorry your T forgot, I know how that can hurt, especially something like this. But he is human too, and a T (T's can be sneaky)....so maybe he did forget or maybe he needed to keep it in another space in his mind so he could still function with you the way he needs to.
By the way, I hope you never terminate with him.....the world would be lost without you. :-)

Take care,
SV

Re: it amazes me..... » shrinking violet

Posted by Dinah on May 3, 2005, at 20:19:45

In reply to it amazes me..... » Dinah, posted by shrinking violet on May 3, 2005, at 19:00:15

I feel like a dreadful example. :( I'm older and am supposed to be wiser.
There's no termination in the near future. He jokes about doddering in and sitting opposite me, and he'll be completely senile and I'll never notice the difference.
The plan was made years and years ago, and it took a fair amount of courage and even more ingenuity to tell him in such a way that I didn't make it an ultimatum. He didn't take it as an ultimatum or a manipulation. We just talked about the practicalities of it a bit - he needs a family member to commit me, it's harder now that he's not in the clinic, stuff like that. He didn't make a big deal of it other than that, and he never has.
Maybe he thinks I'd never follow through because I'd know how much it would hurt my son.
Maybe he's right.
I just fear that I wouldn't be in a very good place to make good choices for myself, and that I probably shouldn't be left alone because I'm not always a rational thoughtful human being.
On the other hand, I did tell him because he is still my therapist. And I still think you should tell your therapist as long as she is your therapist.
(Does that redeem me as a positive role model any?)

Re: it amazes me.....

Posted by shrinking violet on May 3, 2005, at 20:26:34

In reply to Re: it amazes me..... » shrinking violet, posted by Dinah on May 3, 2005, at 20:19:45

> I feel like a dreadful example. :( I'm older and am supposed to be wiser.
> (Does that redeem me as a positive role model any?)
aw {{{{{{dinah}}}}}} You're wonderful as you are.
And you would be VERY missed here as well.
Just the fact that you can talk openly about this with your T (courage), and are careful in the way you proposed it to him (consideration), and know yourself well enough to know that you had to tell him now because you're not always "rational" especially when emotional (honesty).....
All of those things make you a wonderful role-model. Nothing at all to "redeem" sweetie.
I'm sorry if I made YOU feel badly. I didn't mean to. :-(
Take care.
SV

Re: it amazes me..... » shrinking violet

Posted by Dinah on May 3, 2005, at 20:34:47

In reply to Re: it amazes me....., posted by shrinking violet on May 3, 2005, at 20:26:34

It's not that you made me feel bad. It's just that...
Well, what seems perfectly reasonable for me sounds like an absolutely terrible idea for anyone else. You know?
I'd hate for anything I said to make anyone else think that doing what I plan to do is reasonable, sensible, or anything else positive.

Re: it amazes me..... » Dinah

Posted by shrinking violet on May 3, 2005, at 21:20:48

In reply to Re: it amazes me..... » shrinking violet, posted by Dinah on May 3, 2005, at 20:34:47

>> Well, what seems perfectly reasonable for me sounds like an absolutely terrible idea for anyone else. You know?
--Yes, I do know. Many of us think that way......(i.e. it's okay for me to starve myself, but I wouldn't do it to either of my cats, let alone want to see another person do it)...and even with this, I can justify all the reasons I personally need and want and will (at this point) do what you plan to do (won't say any more than that, but I assume you know what I mean), but I'd also do anything I could to stop someone else from doing it.
>> I'd hate for anything I said to make anyone else think that doing what I plan to do is reasonable, sensible, or anything else positive.
--No, I know you wouldn't. I wouldn't either. Now I feel guilty about starting my other thread.
*sigh* I guess we can't really win, can we. ;-)
((((((dinah))))))

Please don't » shrinking violet

Posted by Dinah on May 3, 2005, at 23:26:23

In reply to Re: it amazes me..... » Dinah, posted by shrinking violet on May 3, 2005, at 21:20:48

And I'm not asking of you anything I haven't asked of myself.
I've done my darndest to be safe.
There are countless people that know if I'm terminated it'd be wise to force me into the hospital.
If they aren't around, and I'm in enough control, I will get myself to the nearest safe place and insist on hospitalization.
It's that period of time where he first tells me that I'm in most danger. I'm not likely to be in a rational frame of mind, reeling with pain of losing someone I care about, despair at losing my safe place, and mind boggling vein bursting rage at being betrayed and abandoned by someone I trusted. If my emotional side is in control, that is the moment I'd act to end my pain and act out my unbelievable rage at my therapist by hurting him as much as I could in the process.
He's the only one who could help me at that time, because other than me, he'd be the only one who'd know what happened.
Yet even in that, when I knew that if this scenario ever took place, he'd be the one who'd be doing it, even then, I told him enough for him to help me. If he remembers.
I've done everything I can to help myself
Will you please do everything you can do?

Re: Well, the thing is » Pfinstegg

Posted by Dinah on May 4, 2005, at 17:45:40

In reply to Re: Well, the thing is » Dinah, posted by Pfinstegg on May 3, 2005, at 17:14:15

I talked to him about this today. He says it doesn't feel manipulative to him.
He says that it sounded to him that I was saying that if X,Y, and Z happen that what I need him to do to help me was XXXXX. And that he was glad that I told him what I needed.
He said he didn't feel that my feelings about it were a burden. He said he did have feelings of responsibility toward me that arose from the relationship, but he didn't consider them a burden.
He's a pretty cool guy.

Re: Well, the thing is » Dinah

Posted by Pfinstegg on May 4, 2005, at 23:04:40

In reply to Re: Well, the thing is » Pfinstegg, posted by Dinah on May 4, 2005, at 17:45:40

Sounds good!

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