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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 50. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 4, 2005, at 19:53:21
I just went through an episode of being extremely triggered. It started off simply enough....giving voice to my displeasure over a joke that was (IMHO) in bad taste.....but then it got very.....very something. I don't even know what to call it. But, I know where it came from.
When I was a kid, my mom used to completely disregard my feelings. If they weren't convenient for her, she would do one of two things: a) turn her back; or, b) beat the snot out of me. I sometimes cry just hearing the words "What are you crying for? I'll give you something to cry for!"
When my therapist first suggested to me that I had PTSD as the result of that and other childhood experiences, I dismissed it out of hand. I think it took me three years, and developing acute PTSD from a mugging, to really grasp what he was getting at. I've learned to manage many of the aspects of PTSD, with his help, but episodes like this one just leave me....well.... surprised, frustrated, embarassed, exhausted, confused, frazzled, annoyed, and....more, probably, but I'm too frazzled frustrated annoyed embarassed exhausted confused and surprised to figure it out.
So, here I was, having an authority figure turning his back on me, after I'd just presented a rather symbolic little beauty into his domain, anticipating a discussion on the subject. No, instead I get dismissive comments, (personal attacks by PM), and pure censorship. The triggering energy, though, came out of me in rhetoric. I'm not even sure of all that I said, but I know I said a lot.
I resent the way I can lose control. I resent the way my childhood echoes so loudly, after all these years, after all this effort to rebuild and restructure. I fear that I have hurt people I care about, because I was too involved with something that blinded me, in its pure energy and drive.
I don't even know what I'm seeking, posting this here. Maybe just if somebody "gets it"? Maybe?
Lar
Posted by Spriggy on April 4, 2005, at 20:43:31
In reply to I don't know where else to post this, so....., posted by Larry Hoover on April 4, 2005, at 19:53:21
Well Larry,
First of all, can I please tell you how INVALUABLE your wisdom/advice/knowledge is around here and how much, I for one, appreciate you. I know MANY other's feel the same.
And I want to say that I am sooo sorry for what you are having to endure. The pains and wounds from childhood are scars that we truly do carry over into the rest of our lives. Trust me, I know. As a matter of fact, I wonder if we have the same mother?!?!
People don't always understand where somebody else is coming from nor do they seem to get that other people have just as much knowledge/expertise' just maybe without a piece of paper to prove it.
BUT I, think you are one of the most intelligent people I've never met. If I ever meet do meet you, I will change that phrase but for now, that's the best I can say.
You have a genuine, caring, compassionate heart for other's- it shows in the way you answer everyone's questions and concerns.
Please try to think of all the great things about yourself and focus on those tonight.
Know you are valued, cared about and loved!
And know that I am praying for you!!
Posted by fallsfall on April 4, 2005, at 21:07:05
In reply to I don't know where else to post this, so....., posted by Larry Hoover on April 4, 2005, at 19:53:21
It is called "transference". Now Transference is NOT a dirty word to me. It is very helpful. It just means that you are feeling in the present the feelings that you have had in the past towards something else.
I can tell when I'm experiencing transference because the feelings are out of proportion (in magnitude) to the events. When I find myself freaking out over something that I *know* isn't such a big deal, I know it is transference. Someone once explained to me that when we are little, our emotions are so big - and when we are in transference, our emotions are again big in relation to our size. I have no idea if this is accurate, but it is a helpful picture for me.
The other thing is that it is VERY hard to get away from those feelings - CBT doesn't work, because they aren't logical feelings. It is like they take over and control me.
So what to do? It helps me to recognize these "old" feelings. Once I've recognized them as "old", I can be more patient with the situation (note that I said "more patient" - this is really hard to do). My therapist asks if I have felt like this at other times, and we talk about other times that remind me of this time. Somehow, between realizing that the magnitude of the emotion is unreasonable, and maybe understanding the old situations more rationally, I can start to see that this situation *isn't* the same as the old one, and the emotions start to let go. This can take a number of sessions - even after I've figured out that it is transference.
I think this is called "working through".
The intensity and mandate of the emotions make them very hard to tolerate. But if you can find a way to work through them, I do believe that eventually they stop ruling you.
Transference isn't just for therapists...
Posted by Dinah on April 4, 2005, at 21:09:24
In reply to I don't know where else to post this, so....., posted by Larry Hoover on April 4, 2005, at 19:53:21
Lar, I'm so tired I can hardly see, much less think.
But I do understand, I think. Marsha Linehan has done such wonderful work with the effect of invalidating environments. My parents weren't physically abusive, and I don't remember overt invalidation, yet I too have a major issue in the area.
It's utterly astonishing to me how much difference a minor change in presentation can make to how I react. I used to blow up all the time in therapy. I think more by trial and error than anything else, my therapist found he could say a lot more things to me than he thought he could - if he preceded what he had to say with some validation.
It's such a powerful interpersonal tool, and yet so few people seem to understand that. They go immediately into defensive posture, when that isn't what's called for at all. Since my therapist has given up doing that, we've been able to climb that communicative hurdle.
I congratulate you on being self aware. I think you're a lot further along in that than I am. (Although having just celebrated my tenth anniversary in therapy, I should be the most self aware person alive.) Not only does being self aware allow you to modulate your own responses (maybe not immediately, but sooner than if you weren't self aware), but it also colors your responses to others.
We're all works in progress. It would be nice if being aware of something made it go away. Unfortunately, there are only a rare few of us who can operate on that level. The rest of us have to become aware over and over and over again when we catch ourselves in something.
But, objectively speaking, a bit of validation seldom comes amiss and is usually quite appropriate. I don't think it's unreasonable to want to be validated on some level. I suppose it's also realistic to know it's not always going to happen.
Posted by TofuEmmy on April 4, 2005, at 22:28:30
In reply to Re: I don't know where else to post this, so..... » Larry Hoover, posted by Dinah on April 4, 2005, at 21:09:24
As a point of clarification, the "(personal attacks by PM)" which he refers to did NOT come from John Grohol! Larry seems to have left that part out.
em
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 4, 2005, at 22:40:02
In reply to Re: I don't know where else to post this, so....., posted by TofuEmmy on April 4, 2005, at 22:28:30
> As a point of clarification, the "(personal attacks by PM)" which he refers to did NOT come from John Grohol! Larry seems to have left that part out.
>
> emThat's what I intended the brackets for, to separate that from what John did. Sorry if that was confusing for you.
Lar
Posted by Spriggy on April 4, 2005, at 22:43:01
In reply to Re: I don't know where else to post this, so..... » TofuEmmy, posted by Larry Hoover on April 4, 2005, at 22:40:02
Can't you please just give Larry a break? He has already apologized and is obviously discouraged.
Enough is enough.
Posted by TofuEmmy on April 4, 2005, at 23:07:59
In reply to wow Tofu, posted by Spriggy on April 4, 2005, at 22:43:01
"Enough is enough." Yeah, I said that 2 days ago.
Yes, Lar's story IS a very sad one. No child should be treated that way. None of us should have been.
However, I will post any civil comments which I feel are needed. Censorship...that's a bad thing, right?
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on April 4, 2005, at 23:43:52
In reply to wow Tofu, posted by Spriggy on April 4, 2005, at 22:43:01
I think this is a little different, this was a sincere, obviously thought out apology and an explanation of what went on two days ago when you said you'd had enough Emmy, not more of the same.
Posted by alexandra_k on April 5, 2005, at 0:12:02
In reply to Re: wow Tofu, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on April 4, 2005, at 23:43:52
It might be thought of as hijacking...
ENOUGH ALREADY!!!
AAAARGH.
Things escalated and got way out of hand.
Crap
Crap
CrapI wish it were a rule that we didn't mention other sites here...
Posted by Tabitha on April 5, 2005, at 0:32:19
In reply to I don't know where else to post this, so....., posted by Larry Hoover on April 4, 2005, at 19:53:21
Congratulations on making that connection, Larry. It's a long road to sort that stuff out and learn to separate the past from the present.
Posted by alexandra_k on April 5, 2005, at 0:39:16
In reply to I don't know where else to post this, so....., posted by Larry Hoover on April 4, 2005, at 19:53:21
Yeah Larry. I get you. I hear you. I have a tendancy to do that too. My only clue is that my distress and upset is way out of proportion to the present situation - but in light of the past situation it is an understandable response.
Validation can be useful there to help the bad feelings come back into control.
But sometimes it is hard to come by.
I liked what Dinah said before.
About how everyones feelings can be validated and be acceptable all at the same time.
To validate someones perspective or take or feelings doesn't have to invalidate someone elses.There seem to be a lot of bad feelings all round at the moment.
:-(
I don't know what to say.
I am sorry for my above comment.
I spoke first and thought later.
I wish I hadn't posted it in hindsight.:-(
Posted by fallsfall on April 5, 2005, at 7:27:03
In reply to Re: I don't know where else to post this, so....., posted by TofuEmmy on April 4, 2005, at 22:28:30
Emmy,
Does this situation remind you of some time in *your* past?
Curiously and with love,
Falls.
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 5, 2005, at 8:27:59
In reply to Re: I don't know where else to post this, so..... » Larry Hoover, posted by Tabitha on April 5, 2005, at 0:32:19
> Congratulations on making that connection, Larry. It's a long road to sort that stuff out and learn to separate the past from the present.
Thanks, Tab.
I want to follow on in that theme, because that's part of the anguish. I made the intellectual connection long ago, and of course, you need that, if you are ever to be able to try and bring your adult self into play when the little monster is having a tirade.
What I find most troublesome, just now anyway, is the sense that the adult me isn't even present during these episodes, at least not in the form of judgment. I don't know whose judgment I was using, but it didn't feel like mine at all. Nobody else would know that, of course, and I'm absolutely not trying to deflect any responsibility, but it feels like I'm left to pick up the mess that was made by someone else. In this case, it was (almost) said by someone else, and I actually have a great deal of difficulty recalling what was said....it's almost like *I* wasn't even there. Little beggar has full access to my vocabulary and style of rhetoric, though.
That upset little monster can and will do or say almost anything. And, if the triggering situation is one that might recur, or if dealing with the prior episode is itself triggering, I can get into compound episodes of the little beggar doing or saying things that are not part of my adult better judgment. Moreover, it's not until months later, sometimes, that I can even begin to figure it out (e.g. a multiple trigger situation).
I got lucky this time (or the therapy really is helping), in that I rather quickly made it to a place of pseudo-objectivity, where I could begin to take observations, gather impressions, and try and smooth things out a bit.
I *know* it is me who did/said these things, but I don't feel true ownership of it, either. Not when I'm left exhausted, mentally spinning, and thinking to myself "What the f*ck was that?".
Sort of an aside....I think there was some talk over here (maybe I saw it somewhere else) that some aspects of borderline and DID could be thought of as variants or extremes of PTSD reactions. Even though I never get into those realms, that would seem to make a lot of sense to me.
I appreciate all the support I'm getting. I guess you guys do understand.
Thanks,
Lar
Posted by TofuEmmy on April 5, 2005, at 8:35:50
In reply to Re: I don't know where else to post this, so..... » TofuEmmy, posted by fallsfall on April 5, 2005, at 7:27:03
Yes Falls, I do know where it's coming from. Thank you for asking. :-)
But, I'm just getting used to my new villain costume, so I think I'll keep that story to myself.
(it's a little tight in the butt, but enhances my bust-line)e
Posted by sunny10 on April 5, 2005, at 8:46:54
In reply to I don't know where else to post this, so....., posted by Larry Hoover on April 4, 2005, at 19:53:21
I am crying... I feel exactly the same way as you.
Posted by Dinah on April 5, 2005, at 9:15:13
In reply to Re: I don't know where else to post this, so..... » Tabitha, posted by Larry Hoover on April 5, 2005, at 8:27:59
Lar, I haven't much time, but I wanted to say that I used to have the same problem - far more than now.
I just couldn't understand why I did the things I did.
You might want to read Alexandra's posts on the Writing Board about her theories. I found something very similar to be the answer for me. I'm not sure how much I understand myself what I mean, but I'll try to put my thoughts in order. No small feat.
Posted by henrietta on April 5, 2005, at 9:33:24
In reply to Re: I don't know where else to post this, so..... » fallsfall, posted by TofuEmmy on April 5, 2005, at 8:35:50
Didn't they teach you in kindergarten that if you didn't have candy for everybody, you couldn't have any yourself? In my opinion, either everybody gets to wear a villain costume or nobody does. I vote for nobody getting to wear one, despite the bust enhancing possibilities. :]
(Or maybe we could just wear whichever half is more flattering to our individual body types.)
Posted by Dinah on April 5, 2005, at 9:48:40
In reply to Re: I don't know where else to post this, so..... » fallsfall, posted by TofuEmmy on April 5, 2005, at 8:35:50
Well, you look fetching of course in that villainess costume.
But not terribly convincing, I fear.
Ahhh, Emmy, you sweetie. I'm sorry you're hurting.
Posted by antigua on April 5, 2005, at 10:36:10
In reply to I don't know where else to post this, so....., posted by Larry Hoover on April 4, 2005, at 19:53:21
I know exactly how you feel. I'm usually a very mild mannered person, but in the midst of one of these episodes, I don't have a clue as to who I am. But you're right, it's the kid. I know that my reactions are over the top and it feels very frightening.
Hmm, thanks for the insight. I'm going to try to figure out what put me into that situation to begin with.
best,
antigua
Posted by sunny10 on April 5, 2005, at 11:53:19
In reply to Re: I don't know where else to post this, so..... » Larry Hoover, posted by antigua on April 5, 2005, at 10:36:10
Posted by antigua on April 5, 2005, at 13:34:57
In reply to Re: knowing why doesn't help me much (nm) » antigua, posted by sunny10 on April 5, 2005, at 11:53:19
I'm sorry. I can only hope that if I know why then maybe I can find a way to stop it. I haven't done that yet and maybe I'm just dreaming...
best,
antigua
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 5, 2005, at 13:55:42
In reply to Re: knowing why doesn't help me much » sunny10, posted by antigua on April 5, 2005, at 13:34:57
> I'm sorry. I can only hope that if I know why then maybe I can find a way to stop it. I haven't done that yet and maybe I'm just dreaming...
> best,
> antiguaHere's my experience with this process....
For many years, all I knew was that something was wrong. Something was seriously wrong, but I didn't know what. When it was suggested to me what was wrong, I couldn't accept it, and dismissed the idea out of hand. But I never forgot the idea, and I began to see that it offered an explanation for what was wrong, after all. That was better than before, when I had no idea at all what was wrong.
The frustrating part of coming to understand the what part of the wrong part is that I could only do it in retrospect, looking back at something that had happened, sometimes months or years before. What use is that, really?
But it's part of the flow. You can start to pick up on the pattern, and suddenly, one day, you pick up the pattern while it's happening. Yes, in Real Time! That's quite a thrill, let me tell you. It's like thinking "Look! There's one of those, right there!"
What triggered me to post that first post in this thread was one of those things that I didn't recognize. I didn't see that one coming, and I got a bit blindsided by it. I guess my frustration was huge because of the old feeling of total helplessness that comes from being snuck up on.
But, I figured that episode out, after only a few hours of reflection. I feel a whole lot better (though much for tired) now.
It's a new skill, and it takes practise. Remember the first time you got a bicycle to stay up? I bet it wasn't the first time you tried. This is kind of like that.
IMHO, when you've figured out what is wrong, you're 70 or 80% of the way towards actively sorting it out. Most of the work is done. All you gotta do now is catch sight of one those little suprises when it sneaks up you....sneaky little buggers.
Lar
Posted by Tabitha on April 5, 2005, at 14:54:52
In reply to Re: I don't know where else to post this, so..... » Tabitha, posted by Larry Hoover on April 5, 2005, at 8:27:59
I think they key to circumventing these episodes is probably connecting with the feelings that are driving the actions. Anger is probably the top level, but underneath it is usually hurt. My T used to tell me I would act instead of feeling. I barely knew what she was talking about, but she was right. Connecting with those feelings helps temper the compulsiveness of the actions.
Lately we're working with this critical parent/child/adult stuff. I've learned that most of my 'triggered' feelings come from my own internal critic. It was hard to admit that, because it felt to me that the criticism was coming from 'out there'. So I'd focus on my anger at others, when the real hurtful message was coming from inside. Or maybe it originated from outside, but it only hurt because my own critic picked it up and validated it.
So if the same thing is going on with you, maybe your inner critic is picking up the idea "your feelings don't matter. nobody cares about your feelings" and battering you with that. Then of course your little kid has a temper tantrum. Does that fit at all?
From there, the thing to do is talk back to that critic and comfort the child. In my sessions we're using a bat to whack the critic (no kidding). Once you learn to do some self-comfort, then the need for external validation lets up, and life gets easier.
Posted by Tamar on April 5, 2005, at 15:55:01
In reply to I don't know where else to post this, so....., posted by Larry Hoover on April 4, 2005, at 19:53:21
When I read your post I really identified with it. I do the same kind of thing regularly. And even though I know intellectually most of the things that are likely to trigger me, it doesn't always prevent it happening. I'm sure it's part of the PTSD.
In my case it wasn't my mother, but other stuff. But the experience you describe sounds very familiar to me. I get that rhetoric thing too. And I absolutely hate losing control at any time, so losing control in response to a trigger can be terrifying. I absolutely cannot stand anything that sounds like personal criticism, and that's unfortunate because my job involves taking a certain amount of critique, which isn't supposed to be personal, but often feels personal!
I hope you found what you were looking for among the replies to your post. And I hope things will get easier for you.
Tamar
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