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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 7 to 31 of 34. Go back in thread:
Posted by mair on March 29, 2005, at 8:53:37
In reply to Tough Times, trigger, posted by daisym on March 28, 2005, at 23:57:40
I'll echo what Sunny said - I think you've been an inspiration to lots of people on this Board, certainly to me. I know how tough it is to lead the double life you lead, but you do it so responsibly.
I wish I could say something (anything) of help. I told my pdoc the other day that when I think of killing myself I force myself to visualize my children. Both she and my T have pointed out to me that those who have lost a parent to suicide bear scars that never go away and that are different from the scars left when your parent dies from illness or accident. So it's not just a matter of whether your sons need you (of course they do) but also a matter of their need that you not leave them in this manner.
Figuring out the sleep stuff is huge, at least for me because I function so poorly when I'm sleep deprived and those middle of the night hours can be awful.
You have a wonderful T who is clearly willing to allow you to lean on him however much you need to. Please do without guilt or shame. And remember, therapy is a process and sometimes things have to be bad for them to be better.
Be safe
mair
Posted by TofuEmmy on March 29, 2005, at 8:58:01
In reply to Tough Times, trigger, posted by daisym on March 28, 2005, at 23:57:40
Hi sweetpea - I sent you an email. I guess my thoughts come from the girl in me whose mom suicided. I know you think that it would be better for your kids to be without a mom than to have an angry, screwed up one.
If you would plz wander around your head a bit and search out a wee logical part, you might know that this current state of mind will not last forever. It feels like it tho. But it won't last forever.
My mom thought her kids would be better off without her. She thought she was too crazy. But I would beg to differ, oh dodo mom of mine. I would have LOVED to have a crazy mom. Crazy sorta comes and goes, as most of us know. Phases in and out. I'd take her any way I could get her. She had a bad phase, and killed herself. Now I've been without her for 30 years. It was just a bad depressive cycle! It would not have lasted.
She smelled of hyacinths.
emmy
Posted by Dinah on March 29, 2005, at 9:58:41
In reply to Tough Times, trigger, posted by daisym on March 28, 2005, at 23:57:40
Posted by TofuEmmy on March 29, 2005, at 12:05:42
In reply to Tough Times, trigger, posted by daisym on March 28, 2005, at 23:57:40
I just re-read my post, and I feel badly if I seem to be dismissing your current pain. I'm very sorry!
As the kids say...MEGA HUGS!!,
emmy
Posted by Shortelise on March 29, 2005, at 12:18:07
In reply to Tough Times, trigger, posted by daisym on March 28, 2005, at 23:57:40
Daisy, this sounds so horribly painful. I am so sorry.
Anger, eh? It occurs to me that it's again part of the fight or flight thing, sometimes the reaction is anxiety, sometimes it's anger.
I think you have every right to be angry. If it were me, I'd express that anger. When I went through a period of intense anger in therapy, anger that was directed at my T, poor thing, I walked. Yes, I know, I always suggest walking, but in this case, I POUNDED the sidewalk. I went for walk/runs, steeped in anger, letting it flood through me, using the energy it gave me - all that pent-up, putrifying fury - to walk/run/stomp. It felt great! If I played tennis, I might have done that; skied, whatever- I would have had to have done something like that.
It was like poison in my veins, and my husband and I would talk, I would tell him how angry I felt and why, and he would listen to me, let me yell, because I wasn't yelling at him, I was just emoting.
And it went away. I fought my way through it, was lucky enough to find some ways of dealing with it that weren't hurtful to me or others, and it went away. Not because I am a terribly evolved person, not only because I worked it through in therapy, which I did. But also because I let it out of my body. There is so much hurt and anger and sadness that build up in us - lord, I sound like some kind of nut. Ok, I am some kind of nut!
Daisy, you could tell your kids not to worry, that Mommy is in a nasty mood right now but she loves them and is not mad at them and it's not their fault, but Mommy is the Grinch for the next little while. I'd want to hear that - I do hear that from my husband when he is in a lousy mood and has the sense to explain that he's upset about something.
Last week I was digging a hole in the garden to plant a rose bush, and I found myself thinking about someone I am angry with, and I dug that hole in no time at all!
Daisy, move. Run, do aerobics, go dancing, do anything to try to vent the anger in healthy way. I truly believe that when we can physically relieve ourselves of stuff we have carried around for so long, it really helps us digest it mentally. I so very strongly believe that. And it's way better than suicide, don't you think?
Today I'd be your wailing wall, or rather, your shouting wall. Hard but porous, you could fling all of that anger at me, and I'd absorb it.
Hugs
ShortE
Posted by messadivoce on March 29, 2005, at 15:30:15
In reply to Tough Times, trigger, posted by daisym on March 28, 2005, at 23:57:40
Dear, dear Daisy,
I can't add too much after all the things others said...they are all true. I am so sorry.
You are in my prayers, to have a restful night tonight and better days ahead.
Is this grown-up Daisy, being angry at those who didn't protect little Daisy? Her anger is justified.
Hang on. That's not a request. ;-)
Hugs.Voce
Posted by Tamar on March 29, 2005, at 15:36:09
In reply to Tough Times, trigger, posted by daisym on March 28, 2005, at 23:57:40
I'm sorry to hear you're having such a tough time. I know that rage is so hard to deal with, and I've done some things in rage that I'm not at all proud of. It can be frightening. But if you keep working through it, it will start to get better. It takes courage, but you are very courageous.
Forgiving yourself takes courage too, but the rage comes from the pain, and it doesn't mean you're a bad person. On the contrary, you are a very good person. You are a good person who feels pain and anger for a very good reason. The rage is a natural and normal response to events that are not natural or normal. Keep reminding yourself that you are not bad, and that if you sometimes feel or do things that distress you, it is because you are suffering; you are not inherently wicked. You are a wonderful person.
(((Daisy)))
Posted by mair on March 29, 2005, at 16:16:04
In reply to Tough Times, trigger, posted by daisym on March 28, 2005, at 23:57:40
You're anger is so understandable. Decades ago I had a psychiatrist who wanted me to buy a bunch of old dishes and go down into my stone-wall basement and break them as an outlet for my anger.
He was just too strange, as was the whole idea and then of course I worried about how to clean up the broken shards.
Maybe you should let one of your boys take you to a batting cage - I haven't done it much, but I would think swinging a bat might be useful.
I'm being trite here - I know anger is frightening, and I've never expressed anger and felt all that great about it afterward. And I have blown up at my kids. But you also can't just bottle it up and let it gnaw at you from the inside.
mair
Posted by pinkeye on March 29, 2005, at 16:54:44
In reply to Tough Times, trigger, posted by daisym on March 28, 2005, at 23:57:40
Get some punching bags and pillows and punch them and throw the pillows.. Or do vigours exercise. That will calm you down and vent some of the anger.
You are of course justified in feeling so angry. I would too, if I had to go through somehting like that.
Posted by pegasus on March 29, 2005, at 17:39:39
In reply to Tough Times, trigger, posted by daisym on March 28, 2005, at 23:57:40
Oh, Daisy, sweetie, you are no witch! You may have some really scary anger to deal with, but it doesn't have to be permanent, or to define you even temporarily. And it doesn't even have to be negative. You are entitled to a lot of anger. It sounds like it's probably righteous anger. Which doesn't make it easy or less scary. But maybe once you acknowledge it and own it, you'll be able to integrate it and experience it in a less scary way. I think that's the goal, right?
I'm so glad you have your wonderful T. This is hard hard work. Please let us help you, too, if we can. You are so worth lots of help, whether your limited family could give it or not. Those problems were because of their limitations, not your worth. You've given all of us a ton of help when we've been in need, and I know you are treasured by many people IRL too.
many hugs
pegasus
Posted by Shortelise on March 29, 2005, at 17:49:46
In reply to Re: Tough Times, trigger » daisym, posted by TofuEmmy on March 29, 2005, at 8:58:01
Posted by TofuEmmy on March 29, 2005, at 18:22:05
In reply to Re: Tough Times, trigger, posted by messadivoce on March 29, 2005, at 15:30:15
"Hang on. That's not a request. ;-)"
Perfect! And ditto.
emmy
Posted by Poet on March 29, 2005, at 19:30:29
In reply to Tough Times, trigger, posted by daisym on March 28, 2005, at 23:57:40
((((((Daisy)))))))
Throw water on that wicked witch. Make the image melt away, because you are not wicked.
It's okay to be angry, I know it's hard not to take it out on yourself.
I wish I could wave Glinda the good witch's wand and you could click your heels three times and be safe.
Please post when you are feeling up to it.
Poet
Posted by littleone on March 29, 2005, at 20:16:16
In reply to Tough Times, trigger, posted by daisym on March 28, 2005, at 23:57:40
Daisy, I don't have many words in me at the moment, but I did want you to know that I'm thinking of you. Please take care of yourself (and little daisy too).
Anger is especially hard for those of us who have never had it modelled in a healthy manner. But it doesn't make us wicked witches. It's just something else for us to learn.
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on March 29, 2005, at 20:22:39
In reply to Tough Times, trigger, posted by daisym on March 28, 2005, at 23:57:40
Just more hugs Daisy ((((Daisy)))
I struggle with both, the hurt that no one stopped it, and the anger. I think I find the anger most difficult to deal with, the hurt has an outlet in crying, but my anger doesn't. I'm sorry I can't help
Posted by gardenergirl on March 29, 2005, at 21:17:06
In reply to Re: Tough Times, trigger » daisym, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on March 29, 2005, at 20:22:39
I'm here with hugs, too. As many or as few as you can tolerate. And good wishes, hopeful thoughts, and love.
Much love.
gg
Posted by fallsfall on March 29, 2005, at 21:42:36
In reply to Re: Tough Times, trigger, posted by gardenergirl on March 29, 2005, at 21:17:06
Hey, Daisy.
Please let us know how you are doing.
I hope your therapy session today was helpful. I guess that I hope that you feel more in control. Will you go again tomorrow?
Anger is so scary. But, you know, everybody in the world deals with anger in one way or another - and some significant portion of the world deals with it pretty successfully. So there must be ways to live with anger. We just have to figure out what they are. But we are smart cookies, and we *want* to learn these things, and we have good teachers/therapists. I wish that you could see the same hope that I do that we will successfully learn to deal with this.
Please keep yourself safe. Give yourself a chance to learn all of this.
Keep in touch, OK? particularly if you are up in the middle of the night.
Love,
Falls.
Posted by daisym on March 30, 2005, at 0:07:28
In reply to Re: Tough Times, trigger » gardenergirl, posted by fallsfall on March 29, 2005, at 21:42:36
I should answer all of you individually, I'm so lucky to have you. I just can't right now, but know it means so much that you are out there for me.
Emmy, you DID NOT ignore my pain. If anything, you shared something powerful that I keep going back to in these dark moments. I told my therapist today that the fact that my sons would miss me isn't enough, but your continued pain reminds me that I would leave a life-time wound.
I must say that it sounds like so many of us are scared of anger -- that it feels threatening and bad, both directed at us and from us. I don't know how to get past this idea that letting it out makes it bigger, gives it room to grow and potentially provides another avenue of destruction. My therapist said today I was tentative with him, like I was afraid I'd hurt him in some way. He is absolutely right. More, I'm terrified that if my anger gets out, his response will be to get angry back. He asked me to play out this fantasy, so I imagined him yelling at me, working himself up into a rage and then telling me he can't work with someone who calls this stuff out in him. And then I'd be alone again. He pointed out that I think I'm some sort of anger magnet, magnifying it for each person I come in contact with. Yup, that is exactly how I feel.
It was hard for me to imagine this, harder still to actually talk about it. He reminds me how calm he is, how soft-spoken and how steady. He said just because I fear it, doesn't make it so. But how can he know this? We haven't done this together...I couldn't take it if he yelled at me. He said he won't, even if I yell at him. He said I could even test it out. No way I'm doing that.
Mostly, I miss him. This whole anger thing has caused me to close down, to set everyone else outside, safely away from me. He told me again that he refuses to be pushed away. That being suicidal is about being alone and pushing him away is one way I'm clearing my path to make it OK for me to go down this road. He said it isn't OK...he'd miss me.
Oh, that makes me cry. But the pain is so huge, and I'm so afraid. I don't want to hit pillows, or yell at anyone or go for a walk, even if I should. I just want my mommy to come and get me. Or I want to wake up from this nightmare. Or maybe I just want to sleep forever. I'm tired of being responsible, of fighting back, of being strong.
I'm trying to pull myself out of this, babblers, I promise I'm trying. It is just so much harder at night, you know?
Posted by messadivoce on March 30, 2005, at 0:52:33
In reply to Night Times - trigger, posted by daisym on March 30, 2005, at 0:07:28
Daisy, I pray you sleep well tonight.
Morning will come. In more ways than one, I just know it.
Voce
Posted by gardenergirl on March 30, 2005, at 2:17:49
In reply to Re: Night Times - trigger » daisym, posted by messadivoce on March 30, 2005, at 0:52:33
Daisy,
When it's night time, and you are frightened or upset, can you picture us there with you? I mean really picture us. Figure out what emmy and messadivoce and alldone and dinah and me and falls and racer and scott and lar and gabbi and 10derheart and shortelise and antigua and aphrodite and jai and jyl and pegasus and mair and partlycloudy and susan and alex and
rainbowbrite and sunny10 and auntiemel and okay, I'm tired, but every single babbler you can think of....give us a face. Imagine us there with you, sitting there by your bed, keeping you company. We'll do whatever you want...talk to you, stroke your hair, giggle at silly jokes, check under the bed, whatever. We'll bring you COW. We'll tuck you in tight or loose, just how you like it.Give us faces and hair and outfits and such.
We're there.
gg
Posted by partlycloudy on March 30, 2005, at 7:12:38
In reply to Re: Night Times - trigger, posted by gardenergirl on March 30, 2005, at 2:17:49
What a great idea! I'm definitely there for you, Daisy. And night time is definitely the hardest time of all for me, too.
Posted by TofuEmmy on March 30, 2005, at 8:50:39
In reply to Night Times - trigger, posted by daisym on March 30, 2005, at 0:07:28
Check your email pookie pie.
Tonight find a cozy place and read to Little Daisy. I find "Little Bear's Friend" or "Curious George" are bestest.
Take care of Little Daisy please.
Kisses, Emmers
Posted by Dinah on March 30, 2005, at 10:17:08
In reply to Night Times - trigger, posted by daisym on March 30, 2005, at 0:07:28
It is so true that nighttimes are the worst.
My therapist would be very proud of you, you know. He doesn't like the way I shut off anger. He wants me to face that demon instead of "forgetting". Maybe this is just a step in learning to deal with anger in a healthy way. In learning that your anger won't hurt others because you ARE NOT like those who hurt you with their anger. And that it's ok to BE angry, you can still choose what to do with the anger.
My therapist is really good at modelling healthy ways of being angry without destroying anything, especially our relationship. It can be done. (By others than me of course. :) Life lessons are always applicable to everyone but me.)
Posted by Shortelise on March 30, 2005, at 13:04:23
In reply to Night Times - trigger, posted by daisym on March 30, 2005, at 0:07:28
((((Daisy))))
Your note is so poignant. Dear, sweet Daisy, when I read it I picked you up and held you in my heart. I am holding you there still. I hope that's ok.
ShortE
Posted by pinkeye on March 30, 2005, at 13:15:56
In reply to Night Times - trigger, posted by daisym on March 30, 2005, at 0:07:28
Daisy,
You are right in feeling so angry. Any human would in your situation. And you are absolutely right in whatever mental stress you are going through. You are handling it much better than most others - not taking it out on your kid and trying to see through and reason.You are a wonderful person.
Allow yourself to vent it out in some way. Scream at your therapist if you need to. He seeems like an extraordinary human being, and you must have done something very very good in your previous birth to have him as your therapist. Maybe, God sent you him to compensate for what you had to go through in your childhood.
But do say a strict no to self hurt - You don't want to let this therapist down - ever. He deserves much much more than that. For all he has done for you. If your kids are not enough, for now, think of your therapist - think to what extent he is going to help you and what you would be doing to him if you hurt yourself. You don't want to do that. That is what I tell myself in my worst moments. I made a promise to my ex T that I would live well whatever happens, and that more than for me, I hold it for him.
I seriously think you should go for some jogging or do some rigorous exercise - if your health permits it. That will relieve a lot of stress and direct your anger elsewhere. Don't bottle it up.
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