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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by antigua on March 14, 2005, at 15:49:27
I've been lurking lately and haven't had the strength to really post, but here goes.
I quit therapy. Yes, again; good thing I don't keep track of how many times I've done this, but it really hasn't come up more than a handful of times in 14 years.
How do you know when it's time to throw in the towel and accept that the progress you've made is as much progress as you will ever make? I'm serious here, I don't have the answer anymore.
Here's what happened. I posted about not having trust in my T and we had a huge breakthrough and we were stronger as a result of my trusting her. I do trust her, I don't think that's the issue.
Last week I had a meltdown. My appt was a day late because she was away. There was no obvious correlation between my feelings and her being away. I always start to feel bad a day or two before I see her because I start thinking about what we need to talk about. But I literally couldn't get out of bed. It was scary. So I had two appts last week; she made me come back an extra time because I called her and told her I couldn't get out of bed even after my appt (do Ts make house calls?). My husband was mad, too, and I just couldn't fight how I felt.
So I went back an extra time and it was pretty much useless. She kept talking about things that seemed so off base. I could see she had her"thinking" hat on and I was one step ahead of her all the way. I really didn't have any intention of not going back, but when she asked me, I just said no, I didn't think so. I have the option to change my mind, I know that. She was really frustrated and flustered--I've never seen her flustered before (in 14 years!)
I have gotten so close to the edge, again and again, of letting my guard down and surrendering to the fear and memories so that I can get through my csa issues. It may not be one memory, of course, but there is a wall (self-imposed mind you) that I cannot breach. I have been trying non-stop for at least 10 years to move beyond this and let it go. I swear I've tried everything but hypnosis (my T thinks it would be bad for me) so it's not for lack of trying. It's not that I'm afraid that if it is resolved that I will lose her. I WANT TO BE WELL.
She doesn't have the key, even with all of the tools at her disposal. I have it, but she can't bring it out of me either. There is nothing else she can say or do to make a difference.
I've learned incredible life skills from my T and I'm comfortable that we are a good match and that if anyone can help me, she's the one. But I don't think she can do it. I don't think anyone can do it, but me, and maybe my father, but he's dead. I even know in my heart that if my father knew how much I was suffering, he would give me permission to let go. So why can't I do it?
I just told her she just can't understand. I am a very patient person; I waited for my father forever as a little girl when I loved him so much and she asked me to extend that patience w/her, that she was with me and wasn't going to give up. But I don't have patience for her anymore. It's just never going to happen and I can't live like this anymore. I WANT TO LIVE AGAIN; I want joy, hope and ambition; I want my wasted years back.(of course I know they weren't wasted; my kids were the direct recipients of her knowledge)
So when is enough enough? The agonizing, tortuous longing feelings for my father are with me 24/7, despite what he did to me. (Hey, maybe I made it all up; let's take a huge step back into denial). I have transfered these feelings onto other unavailable, unsuitable people four times before in my life. The faces may change, but despite my best attempts, and my T's, I just can't get through these feelings. I'm in the midst of one of these bouts right now and as knowledgeable as I am about what is really happening in the relationship (it's about my father and not this person), I can't escape the overwhelming painful feelings. I know they will keep coming back unsuitably until I have processed them properly. The only way I've found to effectively deal w/them is to block them off and block off part of my life. But they will resurface until they are resolved.
So is it time to dump it all? I'm sick of meds, psychiatrists and therapists. I'm sick of feeling so low and so tired. I can't eat again, I can't read or write, or even cry. All I can do is sleep.
I was devastated after I realized I wasn't going back. "No one can help me" just kept running through my head. But today I'm not so scared. I can bury it, but with the knowledge that I will have another depressive episode several years down the road.
I am the only one who can do this and it's a race to see whether I will kill myself first or I will succeed in my battle. I can't kill myself because my children still need me; that's the only thing keeping me alive today.
But I don't need her anymore.So how do you know when you've just plain had enough. In the natural course of events, I know when termination would be right, but I can't guage how far I still have to go.
antigua
Posted by mair on March 14, 2005, at 16:25:59
In reply to When is Enough Enough?(long, and **Trigger*), posted by antigua on March 14, 2005, at 15:49:27
Boy, I wish I knew the right thing to say. I don't have csa issues, but I do have great difficulty opening up to my T even after 5 or 6 years of meeting with her. I tend to assume that slowly but surely this will change and feeling that I can be totally open with her will make a difference in how I feel about myself and how I interact with others. But I, too, sometimes feel that what I wish for will never happen, regardless of how patient she is or how long I stick with it.
I'm a little surprised that you can just walk away after so long a time. When I think about my own situation, I realize I feel so invested in the process that I can't bear the thought of terminating it prematurely. But you're right, who's to know what's premature? And when do you have to accept what you've accomplished and stop trying to accomplish things that might be beyond you?
Why did she ask you if you wanted to come back? That seems like a strange question to ask when you've been seeing her for so long.
When I've had no confidence that things can ever change, I've had the conversation with my T where she explains to me for the umpteenth time what she's doing and how she thinks things are getting better no matter how long, and why she thinks it is taking so long with me and how she feels we'll get there. Sometimes when I have no hope, I can feed off her hope and confidence.
Maybe that's the conversation you need to have with your T before you view your decision as being final. If you do trust her, trust her to be honest with you about what she thinks the two of you can accomplish.
And in the meantime, we're always here.
(((antigua)))
Mair
Posted by antigua on March 14, 2005, at 17:20:37
In reply to Re: When is Enough Enough?(long, and **Trigger*) » antigua, posted by mair on March 14, 2005, at 16:25:59
She always says at the end of the session something like "next week?" to confirm my appt. but I hesitated, I guess, and she opened the door to me not coming back. But she has said this before. Hmm, very interesting; I'll try not to read something into it that isn't there, I know it's not.
I really am a cold unfeeling b*tch, aren't I, that I could simply walk away. But I could, I really could. It's a warning sign, I imagine.
thanks for responding,
antigua
Posted by mair on March 14, 2005, at 17:52:55
In reply to Re: When is Enough Enough?(long, and **Trigger*) » mair, posted by antigua on March 14, 2005, at 17:20:37
>
> "I really am a cold unfeeling b*tch, aren't I, that I could simply walk away. But I could, I really could."NO NO No, that's not the way I see it at all. I see it as maybe meaning more that your defenses are stronger and that it might hit you a little harder later.
I've told myself for years that I don't care about my T and that I could walk away from her easily. I morph from that thought to telling myself that I must be a cold heartless b*tch, to feel that way. When I think of it as being difficult to end, I think of it more as being tough to abandon the process, not necessarily tough to walk away from her. She tells me that all of this is evidence of my elaborate system of self-protection, and not at all evidence of a lack of caring or feeling. Her's is definitely a more desirable explanation and I suspect, one which applies to you.
Mair
Posted by Dinah on March 14, 2005, at 18:20:51
In reply to When is Enough Enough?(long, and **Trigger*), posted by antigua on March 14, 2005, at 15:49:27
You sound acutely depressed. I try never to make sudden decisions when acutely depressed.
Are you on medication?
Posted by fallsfall on March 14, 2005, at 20:40:02
In reply to When is Enough Enough?(long, and **Trigger*), posted by antigua on March 14, 2005, at 15:49:27
You want to feel better. You believe that you need to work through the csa before you will feel better. But you feel like you have gone as far as you can go in therapy.
14 years is a long time. You say that you have learned some important things in that time. And that you do trust your therapist. I'm assuming that you have had some important progress, but things seem kind of stuck right now.
Given your motivation, and your certainty that you will experience another depression if you don't "finish" your therapy work, I wonder about your plan to stop.
Have you considered changing therapists? To someone who uses a different theoretical model? I changed from CBT to Psychodynamic and was amazed at how different the therapies were. There are also humanistic, family centered, relationship centered and a bunch of other types. The other thing that changing therapists gave me was that my new therapist had a fresh perspective on things - and that "shaking up" of things was really helpful.
If you decided to change therapists, it would not say anything about the skill of your current therapist - nor about how much she has meant to you. Perhaps you are just at a point where you need something different?
I think it is not true that "no one can help" you. And the hopelessness that I hear in that phrase is heartbreaking to me. Your current therapist has shown that she *can* help you - because she has. But perhaps you have gone as far as you can go *with her*. That doesn't mean that you couldn't benefit from help from someone else.
My former therapist and I kept beating the same dead horse, and didn't get anywhere for a long time. Starting fresh with someone new really made a difference for me.
Best of luck with whatever you decide.
Posted by antigua on March 14, 2005, at 21:03:45
In reply to Re: When is Enough Enough?(long, and **Trigger*) » antigua, posted by Dinah on March 14, 2005, at 18:20:51
Wow, that's what I love about babble. You never know how people will respond and you always end up with a ton of new things to consider.
Am I acutely depressed? Now that you ask, I'm not so sure. I thought it was the usual and I was probably experiencing a dip. In December I even marked in my day diary the day I thought the depression had lifted!
Yes, I take a ton of effexor-225mg--and trazadone to sleep. I also have Xanax as needed, which is not a good idea.
Why did I sound so depressed to you? Because I have no hope of getting better? I thought I was being practical.
All comments and suggestions are welcome.
antigua
Posted by antigua on March 14, 2005, at 21:22:26
In reply to Re: When is Enough Enough?(long, and **Trigger*) » antigua, posted by fallsfall on March 14, 2005, at 20:40:02
I apologize if I sounded like a whiney little girl complaining that no one could help her. Actually, it has been quite liberating to accept this fact. No more leaning on and trusting my T to be better "some day." If my some day is never coming, I want to get on with my life.
I've tried CBT, EMDR and an ecletic bunch of other therapies. My T is psychodynamic, humanistic, relationship-centered, whatever the situation calls for.
I can't imagine starting over with someone else. I have before, but my regular T has always been in the background, supporting my efforts. Even the suggestion of that is anxiety producing. Gee, I wonder why that upsets me so much. I guess I'm defensive of my T and hadn't really considered it. I've had several bad experiences with a few other Ts and there's no way I would put myself in that danger again. My capacity to trust is very limited and that's from experience and not a frightened little girl.
Now I'm mad, but don't know why. NOt at you, by any means, but you pushed a few buttons I didn't know I had. I'll have to think about it.
thanks for responding,
antigua
Posted by 10derHeart on March 14, 2005, at 22:01:23
In reply to When is Enough Enough?(long, and **Trigger*), posted by antigua on March 14, 2005, at 15:49:27
Hi Antigua,
What Dinah asked you, about meds and depression, I was wondering, too, but hesitant to suggest, not *knowing* you at all. I didn't want to it to come out wrong, since this is clearly a long, complicated, exhausting road you've been on. And I don't mean to sound like, "oh, here's the answer," or anything like that. You are clearly a fighter, and very brave.
But when I read certain phrases, all taken together, I did immediately wonder if maybe meds need adjusting. I haven't had much personal experience, as I've been blessed in that one AD has always worked for me. Your post "painted a picture" to me, though, because when I've been descending into a bad state in the past (off AD or dose too low), they sound so very, very familiar:
> Last week I had a meltdown.
> ...I literally couldn't get out of bed. It was scary.
> I just couldn't fight how I felt.
>I'm sick of feeling so low and so tired. I can't eat again, I can't read or write, or even cry. >All I can do is sleep.
> "No one can help me" just kept running through my head.
> I am the only one who can do this and it's a race to see whether I will kill myself first or I will succeed in my battle.
> I can't kill myself because my children still need me; that's the only thing keeping me alive today.Of course, I could be completely off base here. Things are rarely that simple. But I just wanted to mention I also wondered about your depression level. And sometimes I have been so busy working out the complex relationship stuff (with T's, etc.) I've utterly missed the signals of worsening depression until someone else said something. I suppose it wouldn't hurt to consider a meds check/change first, before any big decisions, just in case?
My best to you, and hugs if okay. -- 10derHeart
Posted by antigua on March 14, 2005, at 22:09:47
In reply to Re: When is Enough Enough?(long, and **Trigger*) » antigua, posted by 10derHeart on March 14, 2005, at 22:01:23
Hugs are always welcome. I've followed your posts and you seem like a kind soul, so I appreciate your response.
Actually, I was thinking no meds was the way to go. I'm not me anymore. Have only cried hard once in almost two years, and commercials used to make me cry. Movies of the week were my catharsis. I have none now.
I'm beginning to scare even me now. I sound so cold and unfeeling.
antigua
Posted by 10derHeart on March 14, 2005, at 22:36:09
In reply to Re: When is Enough Enough?(long, and **Trigger*) » 10derHeart, posted by antigua on March 14, 2005, at 22:09:47
Thanks for the kind words. I follow your threads, too. Missed you lately. :-)
You don't sound cold and unfeeling. I was like that, too, sometimes while on meds. I am easily moved by commercials and wanted to get that part of me back. I like that part of me. But I suppose it was a trade off I accepted, and will again if necessary, for the great benefits I got with my mood in general - and wanting to live. Therapy would have been almost impossible without an AD, too.
You could be onto something, though, thinking of no meds. But do be ever so careful careful and safe if you go down that road. Do you have a good pdoc?
Sorry this is such a confusing and difficult time.
Posted by antigua on March 15, 2005, at 8:38:15
In reply to Re: When is Enough Enough?(long, and **Trigger*) » antigua, posted by 10derHeart on March 14, 2005, at 22:36:09
Yes and no, about my Pdoc. He's a male so that makes a huge difference to me and he is easy to talk to, albeit I will admit we have some pretty weird conversations (sex, primarily) sometimes. I'm not sure how comfortable I would be w/him right now, but my instincts are screaming that I should call him. I tend to go ahead and do things on my own and then deal with the consequences later. I know I have to be careful.
I emailed my T that I would be at my appt. tomorrow, mostly because she has something that belongs to me that I want back. This could all be part of my maternal transference thing w/her so I'm not going to let myself isolate from her. I can't be afraid to see her or all this was just hot air.I walked today and it's a beautiful day. I hadn't been able to walk for months because of an injury, so this is good news.
Hope you have a peaceful day.
antigua
Posted by sunny10 on March 15, 2005, at 12:36:42
In reply to When is Enough Enough?(long, and **Trigger*), posted by antigua on March 14, 2005, at 15:49:27
I have similar questions which I posted as a response to you on Social...
When do we throw in the towel, realizing that this is as good as it gets?
Posted by Tamar on March 15, 2005, at 17:22:08
In reply to When is Enough Enough?(long, and **Trigger*), posted by antigua on March 14, 2005, at 15:49:27
Like other people, I wondered when I read your post whether you might be very depressed and possibly needing medication adjusted. When I've been very depressed I've had similar feelings of hopelessness, and the inability to get out of bed, and an idea of myself as a cold heartless, b*tch.
I also wondered whether you have a desire to walk away from therapy because the alternative is to surrender finally to the memories and it just feels too painful. I just wonder whether the feeling that you've achieved as much as you can achieve is maybe another way of trying not to let your guard down.
Whatever you decide to do, I hope you're feeling better soon.
Tamar
Posted by antigua on March 15, 2005, at 22:19:27
In reply to Re: When is Enough Enough?(long, and **Trigger*) » antigua, posted by Tamar on March 15, 2005, at 17:22:08
Good advice. But I would scream w/joy from the mountaintops if my wall would crumble, but maybe I'm sabotaging myself subconsciously.
The consensus is that I'm pretty depressed. It's disturbing that it feels so normal to me. But then again... I haven't escaped to bed in three days (no nap even!) and I'm exhausted.
Thank you everyone.
antigua
Posted by Aphrodite on March 16, 2005, at 14:59:36
In reply to Re: When is Enough Enough?(long, and **Trigger*) » 10derHeart, posted by antigua on March 15, 2005, at 8:38:15
> Yes and no, about my Pdoc. He's a male so that makes a huge difference to me and he is easy to talk to, albeit I will admit we have some pretty weird conversations (sex, primarily) sometimes. I'm not sure how comfortable I would be w/him right now, but my instincts are screaming that I should call him. I tend to go ahead and do things on my own and then deal with the consequences later. I know I have to be careful.
I'm late getting here, but did you call? I hope you followed those instincts. Maybe a med adjustment and a fresh perspective might help.
>
>
> I emailed my T that I would be at my appt. tomorrow, mostly because she has something that belongs to me that I want back. This could all be part of my maternal transference thing w/her so I'm not going to let myself isolate from her. I can't be afraid to see her or all this was just hot air.Is tomorrow today? If so, how did it go? I was so moved by your original post and could feel all the pain, apathy, resignation, and despair in it through the computer. My heart is very, very heavy for you. I wish I had some brilliant insight to make it all better.
>
> I walked today and it's a beautiful day. I hadn't been able to walk for months because of an injury, so this is good news.Oh, that is good news! Please update, OK? I'm feeling very concerned for you.
This is the end of the thread.
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