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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 45 to 69 of 69. Go back in thread:
Posted by pinkeye on February 28, 2005, at 13:47:30
In reply to Re: Wow. What a Concept., posted by Susan47 on February 28, 2005, at 13:27:10
Maybe your therapist was really clueless as to how to help you. That is probably why he terminated. Maybe he didn't have all the insight you need.
Has it ever occurred to you that he might have terminated you becuase of his own limitations?
Posted by alexandra_k on February 28, 2005, at 15:23:22
In reply to Re: Wow. What a Concept. » Susan47, posted by pinkeye on February 28, 2005, at 13:47:30
I dare say you are most probably exactly right!
Posted by Susan47 on March 1, 2005, at 0:20:29
In reply to Re: Wow. What a Concept. » Susan47, posted by pinkeye on February 28, 2005, at 13:47:30
Oh yes, absolutely. It's one of the concepts I created about him that I then fell in love with. That he was an altruist. Mmmm.
I found out a great deal about what's important to me from knowing, or rather, not knowing, this person. I wonder how that happened, it's weird but it just really did, it happened, it's perfect, everything's perfect. Sigh. Today I'm totally in love with everybody and everything in my little world.
Posted by Susan47 on March 1, 2005, at 0:21:56
In reply to Re: Wow. What a Concept. » pinkeye, posted by alexandra_k on February 28, 2005, at 15:23:22
Oh, the tone of this post is lovely. It reminds me of the caterpillar in Alice in Wonderland, for some reason. I'm going to have to look that up ...
Posted by pinkeye on March 1, 2005, at 16:21:31
In reply to Re: Wow. What a Concept. » pinkeye, posted by Susan47 on March 1, 2005, at 0:20:29
As much as you want to work on your feelings towards your therapist, and your interest in using that to understand yourself better, do know though that letting go of this person will probably do good for you in the long run rather than keep on trying to work on your feelings for him. It is called rumination and it doesn't do you any good if you keep trying to understand him, what he stood for, what he meant for you, what you were looking for from him, etc. All this thing only end up beign a downward spiralling movement and it never leads anywhere.
He probably hasn't thought about you even a little. And he has a full life himself with others. As much as it hurts you now to recognize this, I believe, acknowledging that would be the most effective first step that you can take towards letting him go from your life.
Slowly as you go about your life and create other meaningful relationship with other people, this unresolved puzzle with your therapist will fall into place - it is possible only by creating positive relationship with yourself and others and not by ruminating and digging it deeper and deeper and trying to work on it now. Logic never changes emotions. You will have to chnage your emtoions, and experiencing more positive relationship with others is the way to go to changing yoru emotions.
Posted by Susan47 on March 1, 2005, at 18:19:42
In reply to Re: Wow. What a Concept. » Susan47, posted by pinkeye on March 1, 2005, at 16:21:31
Omigosh Pinkeye what on earth brought that on?
You fair flew at me, dear.
Don't worry, I know damn well my ex-T has a life.
Haven't I said that all along?
I'm not ruminating, and have you not noticed a change in me recently? Hello? Are we both talking about me here?
Posted by pinkeye on March 1, 2005, at 18:47:17
In reply to Re: Wow. What a Concept., posted by Susan47 on March 1, 2005, at 18:19:42
I must have misunderstood what you had written in your post. I thought you were still trying to keep analysing him and understanding about him etc etc.
"Oh yes, absolutely. It's one of the concepts I created about him that I then fell in love with. That he was an altruist. Mmmm.
I found out a great deal about what's important to me from knowing, or rather, not knowing, this person. I wonder how that happened, it's weird but it just really did, it happened, it's perfect, everything's perfect. "> Omigosh Pinkeye what on earth brought that on?
> You fair flew at me, dear.
> Don't worry, I know damn well my ex-T has a life.
> Haven't I said that all along?
> I'm not ruminating, and have you not noticed a change in me recently? Hello? Are we both talking about me here?
Posted by Susan47 on March 1, 2005, at 21:51:18
In reply to Re: Wow. What a Concept. » Susan47, posted by pinkeye on March 1, 2005, at 18:47:17
Well, you may see that, but is there something wrong with that?
If I feel like I'm benefitting from this "ruminating", does that not carry an validity? I believe it does. I'm sorry.
Posted by Susan47 on March 1, 2005, at 21:56:11
In reply to Re: Wow. What a Concept., posted by Susan47 on March 1, 2005, at 21:51:18
Please don't take offense, though, at my abruptness. Because I can understand how my thoughts and feelings could be upsetting for others. I understand that. I look back at my posts and wonder at the power behind the words. Everyone's posts here have power, a lot of power. For me, it important to keep being as honest as I can, even when I'm realizing I've fooled myself. Speaking about me, of course, as usual, just talking about me. Okay? And thank you, Pinkeye, for being interested, and giving me your perceptions. Because they are very valuable. And I do think about everything you say, sometimes it just takes re-reading, just like in life when I play conversations in my head more than once.
Posted by pinkeye on March 1, 2005, at 22:02:53
In reply to Re: Wow. What a Concept., posted by Susan47 on March 1, 2005, at 21:51:18
I believe rumination appears to create value, but eventually it doesn't. That is what I read and now I believe it too.
You probably are thinking that by keep getting deeper and deeper and thinking about him constantly, you are probably working on your way to your wellness and understaning yourself better. And you probably like thinking about him and keep creating that virtual relationship that you had with him in your mind. Because the relationship part of it probably feels good. Also you are probably thinking that by constantly venting out and talking about it, you are probably getting him out of your system.
But what they say is, rumination is really bad for you, and doesn't serve any purpose. You are much better off by distracting yourself, and doing something else, and trying to create more positive relationships and doing things a better way with others - these are productive and helps you learn a different way of coping and you learn a better way of living by simply living a better life. Not by thinking what went wrong and how you could have done things differently. Rumination leads straight into depression by creating a kind of vicious circle. And it robs you of developing a better coping strategy when faced with other issues. It seems to be not true, but that is what it really does. Women tend to get more depressed and stay in depression longer than men, because women have a much higher tendency to do this rumination. Men simply don't. If they end up doing badly in a relationship, they don't keep thinking about it all the time - instead they go and play sports or spend time in an electronic shop or just go and drink. That is why they don't get depressed. They find something else interesting to do, and it helps them move on faster. (but don't do the drinking part). And nowadays, psychologists prescribe the same exact thing for women who have a tendency to get depressed.
You should get a book Learned Optimism by Martin Seligman. It was available in my local library and it helped me see things clearly.
Posted by annierose on March 1, 2005, at 22:06:42
In reply to Re: Wow. What a Concept. » Susan47, posted by pinkeye on March 1, 2005, at 22:02:53
Well said pinkeye. It makes sense. And I hope your post is helpful to Susan.
Posted by pinkeye on March 1, 2005, at 22:08:19
In reply to Re: Wow. What a Concept. » Susan47, posted by Susan47 on March 1, 2005, at 21:56:11
I am not taking offense at your abruptness. It took me some time to learn to be gentle as well as honest. I used to be little abrupt myself, so I understand.
I am glad my perceptions help you. I somehow feel I could help you of all the people here the most, because somehow I feel I can understand your way of thinking. That is why I always try to respond to you and give you my views and what I had learnt. And it reinforces for myself, what I had learnt as well. So it is mutually beneficial. A friend of mine said long back that real learning comes from your fingertips and tongue - by writing and telling others about what you had learnt.
Posted by Susan47 on March 1, 2005, at 22:33:17
In reply to Re: Wow. What a Concept. » Susan47, posted by pinkeye on March 1, 2005, at 22:02:53
From both of you. I'm upset that you don't understand and you both sound preachy to me. It's time for a Babble break. My first in ages!!!
Posted by alexandra_k on March 2, 2005, at 0:22:36
In reply to Enough., posted by Susan47 on March 1, 2005, at 22:33:17
(((Susan))) You okay hon???
You are doing okay.
You come back here and Babble, you hear???I too read that as the sort of CBTish instruction that I have to admit I find hard to take as well...
I know people really are super well intentioned but I still find it hard...
It is one thing to know 'rationally' what to do...
And to see 'objectively' what should be done...
And quite another to live through the experience.
Sometimes people need their experiences validated.
I think your transference has been helpful to you Susan (though painful).
It has brought up a lot of guy issues for you - right?
That stuff is really hard.
(((Susan)))
Hang in there.
Come play on writing...
Please.
Posted by alexandra_k on March 2, 2005, at 0:27:44
In reply to Re: Oh Dear...., posted by alexandra_k on March 2, 2005, at 0:22:36
And don't stop writing about it if that is what is on your mind - you hear me???
I think you are doing really well...
Sure you go round and round a bit
But hell, I have been known to do that myself.
I am confident that there is a lot you have to work through.
You work at your own pace.Please don't stop Susan.
I know here is the one place you felt able to express yourself honestly.
Please, don't let anything change that.
Posted by Susan47 on March 2, 2005, at 10:42:26
In reply to Re: Oh Dear...., posted by alexandra_k on March 2, 2005, at 0:27:44
I feel very bad about what I posted last night. It brought home to me just unhelpful CBT-type therapy is for me. Alexandra, you're right. That is bad therapy for me. It doesn't work. I know I'm getting the core issues dealt with. That's what matters. How I do it is how I do it. Period. But thank you, Pinkeye, for caring. You HAVE helped me by being here. If CBT works for you, that's fine. Personally, I believe it's a bandaid.
Posted by Susan47 on March 2, 2005, at 10:43:48
In reply to Pinkeye, Annierose, I'm sorry., posted by Susan47 on March 2, 2005, at 10:42:26
A bandaid on a festering wound. You could die from the infection.
Posted by Susan47 on March 2, 2005, at 10:51:14
In reply to Re: Oh Dear...., posted by alexandra_k on March 2, 2005, at 0:27:44
Thank you Alex, your level head brought me to a better place. I hope Pinkeye forgives me. I hope she goes easy on herself, too. She deserves a lot of support for all the wonderful work she's been doing. I'm truly sorry for sounding off.
Posted by pinkeye on March 2, 2005, at 12:24:17
In reply to Re: Oh Dear.... Pinkeye, you too » alexandra_k, posted by Susan47 on March 2, 2005, at 10:51:14
I am really sorry for what I said. I thought I was saying the right thing and I thought it was helping you. Didn't mean it as instructionish - only kind of what I had gone through myself to recover.
But I think I overdid it.. and I am not going to do it again. I think I shall stay away from posting here too much.
You should do whatever you feel comfortable doing at whatever pace you are comfortable with. Please do ignore my suggestion. I was probably horribly wrong with my words.
Posted by Susan47 on March 2, 2005, at 12:47:13
In reply to Re: Oh Dear.... Pinkeye, you too » Susan47, posted by pinkeye on March 2, 2005, at 12:24:17
No, sweetie, please don't go. I knew this would happen, I knew my post would have that effect after I posted it, and especially when I went to bed without changing that. I'm so terribly sorry, pinkeye, sweetie. You're such a good person, and I know your approach makes sense, in fact it causes me stress to know I can't be helped by such well-meaning advice. I AM going it at my own pace, and I'm learning so terribly much. I just feel discouraged when people get frustrated with me for not doing it their way, and that makes me angry, Pinkeye. I'm sorry I was angry with you. I felt you weren't accepting me. (((Pinkeye))) Please keep posting, we learn so much from one another, truly.
Posted by pinkeye on March 2, 2005, at 13:22:45
In reply to Re: Oh Dear.... Pinkeye, you too » pinkeye, posted by Susan47 on March 2, 2005, at 12:47:13
Thanks Susan. I shall try to be much more careful with what I am saying. I didn't get offended, only didn't want to cause more trouble to anybody in the name of helping.
Sometimes I get caught up in being logically correct that I fail to see if it is emotionally correct - with everyone even in real life. I have a tendency to do that - it used to be a lot before, now I am understanding that in myself and trying to rectify that. I was so involved in rephrasing that book, that is where all that you should do this, do that must have come from.
Maybe that is where some of the CBT approaches go wrong as well.. They are probably thinking that logical correctness automatically ensures emotional follow up. Which we all know is hardly the case isn't it.
Posted by alexandra_k on March 2, 2005, at 14:32:33
In reply to Re: Oh Dear.... Pinkeye, you too » Susan47, posted by pinkeye on March 2, 2005, at 13:22:45
Hey there.
Don't you go away either, you hear???
I have been known to write similar things myself...
But I invariably tend to find that it is offputting to people.
Because it is such a logical approach it kind of goes here is your problem - BANG and to solve the problem you need to do the following steps
1.
2.
3.But then that brings up a lot of issues (for some people more than others). E.g., if it is so easy to solve the problem then why is it something I have struggled with so much over a number of years??? If I do the steps and they don't work then is there something seriously wrong with me??? What if I can't do one of them???
Here is a joke that actually has a fairly serious message:
One man had great difficulty sleeping because he believed there was some kind of monster living under his bed. He went to a psychotherapist for a number of years but still had trouble sleeping. He switched to a behaviourist and after his first session he was cured. When asked what he did to cure him he said 'oh, it was easy, he just told me to cut the legs off my bed!'.
That is what people mean by a band-aid.
But sometimes people are happy with band-aids.Everyone here is learning.
And it can be hard at times.
But stay and Babble.
You are a wonderfully caring person.
Really.
We would miss you.
Posted by pinkeye on March 2, 2005, at 15:29:48
In reply to Re: (((Pinkeye))), posted by alexandra_k on March 2, 2005, at 14:32:33
Thanks Alexandra. I am going to stay. But I shall be more careful henceforth.
Our mind works somehwat differently I think - logic is hardly enough to set it right.
Posted by Susan47 on March 2, 2005, at 15:41:03
In reply to Re: (((Pinkeye))) » alexandra_k, posted by pinkeye on March 2, 2005, at 15:29:48
Please bear with me, this is a good thought. Why CBT doesn't always work ... perhaps it takes the same energy to deal with the problem as it did to create the problem. Hold on here, instruments of therapy may not be enough.. it may be the relationship itself (yes, Irvin) that creates the therapy. So emotional trauma provoking brain changes requires emotion to bring about change again.
The situation brings to mind an analogy. When I was giving birth to my third child, just before the waters broke, I was in the shower and stimulating myself sexually with the shower head (m-hm) and just with a wave of pleasure, bang the water broke and my son was born within minutes. I told a friend and she said it takes the same energy to bring a child into the world, as it did to create him. I remembered, when she said that, the miraculous energy that coursed through my body at the stimulation and the suddeness with which that energy was converted to childbearing pain. And the quickness and ease of his birth thereafter...it all makes a great deal of sense. Follow the pathways, they are there. I like that concept. Mine.
Posted by pinkeye on March 2, 2005, at 15:58:59
In reply to Re: (((Pinkeye))), posted by Susan47 on March 2, 2005, at 15:41:03
I think you are right.
But there may be a way of cheating our system - I am beginning to think instead of words and logic, pictures and visualizations might be better. Mind grasps pictures easily. That is why we get so much more motivation seeing a movie rather than reading a novel. Instead of logical steps, somehow if the therapists can use visualization, it might work on a more unconscious level and grasping and changing might be easier.
This is the end of the thread.
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