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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by littleone on December 26, 2004, at 17:41:45
I've been trying to come to grips with the fact that my family was/is abusive. Plenty of emotional abuse with regular rages and furniture tossing thrown in for good measure. Sometimes I can see it as abuse and other times I excuse it all away. It's hard.
So because of this I wanted to just stay right away from my family over Christmas (indefinately?). I just didn't feel like I could put on a happy smiley face for them. Too hypocritical. Too risky that I'd just completely lose it and either start bawling or start attacking them or run away or whatever.
So in November I called each of them up and said that I was opting out of Christmas this year. Don't get me a present because you won't be getting one. Don't expect to see me because you won't.
But even after I called them, my dad let me be, but my mum and brother kept trying to set up a get together. They kept assuming that I was bailing out to avoid my dad. I just couldn't tell my mum that I was upset at her too and tell my brother that he's just a scumb*g. So I just had to stick by my guns and hold them off.
It was so hard. My T kept reminding me why I was doing this. There's a section in "The Courage to Heal" that talks about this and it helped me through a lot.
And I'm glad I did it. It was a big step for me to say no to a family *should* and to stick with it.
But now that Christmas is over, I'm being pressured to start seeing my mum and brother again. My husband has kind of manuvered (cr*p sp I know) me into a lunch with them today. And I don't want to go.
It's not like my feelings about them have changed over 48 hours. I knew it wasn't just going to be Christmas. My birthday is in January and my dad's is in February and my brother's is in March. I was going to try to dodge all of them.
But now my T is away for 3 weeks and I don't know how to hold them off. It was much easier with a set date. How on earth can I tell them I just want to stay away until some undetermined point in the distant future? Especially if I'm not ready to talk to them about the abuse.
I miss my T already. 3 weeks is an eternity. I'll be reading all the T vacation threads in the archives, but *sigh*. I've got the anniversary for the accident coming up while he's away too. So far I've been successfully shoving that one away, but I know that monster is getting ready to climb out of the box I've shoved it into. I can't keep the lid closed without my T there to sit on it.
I'm sorry, I'm just having a whinge. Just wish I could do better at shoving my family away.
Posted by ghost on December 26, 2004, at 17:51:59
In reply to Well, I successfully dodged Christmas, posted by littleone on December 26, 2004, at 17:41:45
good for you for opting out of x-mas. it sounds like it was a really smart move. are you obligated to remain in contact with these people? it seems to me that you've made the ultimate opt-out (of such a major holiday!)... it's like you can do ANYTHING now.
but how did lunch go?
Posted by Fallen4MyT on December 26, 2004, at 20:34:50
In reply to Well, I successfully dodged Christmas, posted by littleone on December 26, 2004, at 17:41:45
Way to go and what a healthy thing to do. It is not easy.
Posted by Camille Dumont on December 26, 2004, at 22:14:59
In reply to Well, I successfully dodged Christmas, posted by littleone on December 26, 2004, at 17:41:45
I don't have any magic solution to propose to you but I wanted to say congratulation. I know how it feels to just not want to see people and not have them understand.
Sometimes you don't hate people but you do feel much better when they are not around.
H.
Posted by littleone on December 26, 2004, at 23:29:15
In reply to Well, I successfully dodged Christmas, posted by littleone on December 26, 2004, at 17:41:45
I had to come back to babble today. I felt so alone.
I dragged myself over to my brother's place for lunch at 1pm and there was no one there. I called my husband's mobile and to make a long story short, everyone was meeting at a different house now and "lunch" would end up being at about 5pm.
So I ate lunch at a coffee shop. By myself. Then I called in to see everyone. But they were all playing the Playstation. You know how you can be surrounded by people and yet you're still alone? I was invisible. A non person.
So I had to come back here. I don't want to be alone today. I shouldn't have to feel like a non person.
Posted by gardenergirl on December 27, 2004, at 15:51:43
In reply to Lunch, or lack thereof, posted by littleone on December 26, 2004, at 23:29:15
I'm sorry lunch did not happen as planned. And I understand feeling invisibile like that. It's a horribly sad feeling. I'm glad you are not invisible here. I've enjoyed your posts.
Take care,
gg
Posted by just plain jane on December 27, 2004, at 20:10:29
In reply to Lunch, or lack thereof, posted by littleone on December 26, 2004, at 23:29:15
Well, you didn't really want to go to their planned luncheon anyway, and the whole moving it to another time and place deal would be enough for me to say (to myself) scroo this cr@p and them, and just blow off any future tugs at you for socialization with them.
Does your husband understand that you just don't care to be around these people any more? That your desire is not to punish them or show them or anything more than to just leave them in their own squallid dust?
Maybe someday you'll want to go to something or visit, on whatever terms you decide on, but since that time is not here, my suggestion would be to treat them like anyone else you know but don't care to be around.
Hope I've captured the situation accurately, seems a lot like mine, that's why my opinion here is what it is. Took me a long time to get here, but it's the healthiest place I've been regarding my family in my entire life. No longer under their control.
just plain jane
Posted by littleone on December 28, 2004, at 15:29:54
In reply to Lunch, or lack thereof, posted by littleone on December 26, 2004, at 23:29:15
Thank you all for your replies. They meant a lot to me. I'm sorry I find it hard to respond to you all individually. I get antsy. But I did want to especially thank you gg for saying you've enjoyed my posts. It makes me cry when people are unexpectedly nice to me.
I get confused about boundaries. Like here I told my brother I was opting out of Christmas and he kept on harping on "why why why why why why why why". I never told him about the family work in therapy, I just kind of said that it was a decision I had made and I wanted some time to myself. "But why why why why why why". I ended up having to hang up on him.
Then he keeps asking me over and trying to set up a Christmas lunch together. Despite my repeated no's.
My husband went to the lunch I mentioned earlier and my brother gave him a present to pass on to me. My husband said to my brother that I had specifically said no presents this year, but my brother insisted he take it.
So now I've got this unopened present sitting on my table at home. I actually want to return it to my brother. I don't want it. I was thinking of dropping it off at his front door with a letter explaining the idea of boundaries.
But then I keep thinking "Jeez, it's just a present. Just take it and shut up. What's the big deal".
But it does feel important to me. He's ignoring my desisions and my needs and just following the family shoulds.
Part of me thinks he's just being nice, just caring about me. But I honestly don't think that's it. I've unofficially cut myself off from my family for a while now and he hasn't shown any interest in getting together for lunch or whatever. It's only when I specify say I won't be doing that, that he starts pushing for it.
I want my T so badly. I yearn for him. I don't understand people stuff. I can't make sense of things.
Do you think I'm right in my thinking about the boundary stuff, or am I right in thinking that he's just doing this because he cares and if someone wants to care about you, you should just let them? My gut says he's not respecting my boundaries and it feels wrong, so I guess I'm supposed to go with that. But none of my family or my brothers friends or anyone is in therapy besides me. And they just don't *get* anything I try to talk about.
I don't know. 16 days to go til my T gets back. I guess I could just hold the present until then. I just hate having it. I want to toss it away like a hot potatoe.
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 29, 2004, at 9:21:48
In reply to Boundaries, posted by littleone on December 28, 2004, at 15:29:54
> Do you think I'm right in my thinking about the boundary stuff, or am I right in thinking that he's just doing this because he cares and if someone wants to care about you, you should just let them? My gut says he's not respecting my boundaries and it feels wrong, so I guess I'm supposed to go with that.
If I may speak from my experience with setting boundaries....
One of the hardest lessons I learned is that boundaries are best left flexible. A rigid boundary can block me from experiencing the unexpected (such as a gift despite a "rule" against it), and it can also keep me imprisoned in the same rigid framework.
When I first put up boundaries, they were like fenceposts buried deep in the ground. There wasn't any way to move them. Like a property line between feuding neighbours.
My boundaries today still have the same amount of fencepost sticking out of the ground, but the bottom of the post is sitting on a little flat board (like you have under a christmas tree). I can move my boundaries around to fit the circumstances in which I find myself. I make sure that the stuff I want "out there" is still on the other side of the fence, but I also make sure that there are gates in fence.
My take on what you're describing is that your brother was hurt that your boundary took Christmas away from the two of you. Giving him some kind of exception does not invalidate your boundary, if you yourself recognize that you're making an exception just for him. And for yourself, do you have some regret that you don't have some kind of recognition of Christmas between brother and sister? Just an open question to consider. Maybe part of your ambivalence is that you cut off an avenue of communication with your sib.
When you're the first person in a dysfunctional family to begin a process of healing, of boundary creation, of attribution of personal responsibilities, it seems like you're doing all the work. Maybe you are, at first. It's hard not to have some sort of expectation that the rest of the family might catch on to the same ideas that you're starting to catch onto. But here, you can lead by example.
Just doing it differently this year was noticed. Count on that. Expect to have people wonder why you made this choice. Expect the odd bump in the road of understanding. You may want to think about how you're going to answer the inevitable questions. Your answer should respect boundaries, too. If you succeed in putting respect back into the dynamic, others are going to want more of that.
I admire your courage. One step at a time.
Lar
Posted by littleone on December 30, 2004, at 16:08:58
In reply to Re: Boundaries » littleone, posted by Larry Hoover on December 29, 2004, at 9:21:48
Thanks for your thoughts Larry. I kind of know the theory about boundaries being flexible (and I really liked your analogy), but I find it hard to think of these in real life terms - what examples would be of the middle ground.
I know I tend to fluxuate between too rigid and too flexible. But then I have a lot of trouble with all or nothing's.
> My take on what you're describing is that your brother was hurt that your boundary took Christmas away from the two of you. Giving him some kind of exception does not invalidate your boundary, if you yourself recognize that you're making an exception just for him. And for yourself, do you have some regret that you don't have some kind of recognition of Christmas between brother and sister? Just an open question to consider. Maybe part of your ambivalence is that you cut off an avenue of communication with your sib.
This doesn't really resonate with me. I don't understand anything to do with my brother. Haven't even gotten close to looking at that with my T. I know we used to play together a lot as kids, but now he really revolts me. He disgusts me, not in a dirty/clean way, but as a person. He's a real creep.
I know I don't want his present because I don't want *anything* from him. I certainly don't want to feel like he has anything over me. Like I'm indebted to him. Which I know is dumb because it's just a stupid Christmas present ... but it's there anyway.
> When you're the first person in a dysfunctional family to begin a process of healing, of boundary creation, of attribution of personal responsibilities, it seems like you're doing all the work. Maybe you are, at first. It's hard not to have some sort of expectation that the rest of the family might catch on to the same ideas that you're starting to catch onto. But here, you can lead by example.
>
> Just doing it differently this year was noticed. Count on that. Expect to have people wonder why you made this choice. Expect the odd bump in the road of understanding. You may want to think about how you're going to answer the inevitable questions. Your answer should respect boundaries, too. If you succeed in putting respect back into the dynamic, others are going to want more of that.Thank you for this Larry. It really clarified how I'm feeling. I keep picturing that me and my family have stumbled upon this giant, ugly, ferocious monster ready to attack us. And while I'm standing there with a sword prepared to defend myself and chase it off, the others are all wandering around going "Monster? What monster? I can't see any monsters" and then just wander away to leave me to fight it alone.
I've printed out your post for my journal to remind myself of what you said.
> I admire your courage. One step at a time.
Ack. I don't feel courageous. I feel like I've just handled things by avoiding them (as usual). The only difference was that this time I chose to avoid rather than just running on avoidant autopilot.
And I know that's not right. I had to confront to avoid and that's the courageous part. But still ... ack.
Posted by littleone on December 30, 2004, at 16:16:35
In reply to lack thereof » littleone, posted by just plain jane on December 27, 2004, at 20:10:29
Hi anything-but-plain jane,
You did capture the situation correctly. Except I really do buckle quite badly to the family shoulds. It took so much to defy this one should. Now I want to go running back to hide behind my T's skirts (say what??? He's never worn a skirt to the office!). 14 days to go and counting.
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 31, 2004, at 8:24:08
In reply to Re: Boundaries » Larry Hoover, posted by littleone on December 30, 2004, at 16:08:58
> Thanks for your thoughts Larry. I kind of know the theory about boundaries being flexible (and I really liked your analogy), but I find it hard to think of these in real life terms - what examples would be of the middle ground.
Life comes to us on a case-by-case basis. All the planning in the world could not anticipate every outcome.
You just practise doing it better, as you go along. There's no right or wrong answer. If you stick to a boundary, and there are adverse outcomes, you may decide to be less rigid about that subject in future. If you fail to protect a boundary, and there are adverse outcomes....and so on.
> I know I tend to fluxuate between too rigid and too flexible. But then I have a lot of trouble with all or nothing's.
Boundaries are a good example of the grey in between. If you lived life without them (classic dysfunctional family dynamic), then imposing them seems stark and rigid. It's only because you're not used to it. It's like learning to drive a car. At first, you have to consciously remember which pedal is the brake, and which the throttle. Before long, it comes without thought. Boundaries get to be like that.
> > My take on what you're describing is that your brother was hurt that your boundary took Christmas away from the two of you. Giving him some kind of exception does not invalidate your boundary, if you yourself recognize that you're making an exception just for him. And for yourself, do you have some regret that you don't have some kind of recognition of Christmas between brother and sister? Just an open question to consider. Maybe part of your ambivalence is that you cut off an avenue of communication with your sib.
>
> This doesn't really resonate with me. I don't understand anything to do with my brother. Haven't even gotten close to looking at that with my T. I know we used to play together a lot as kids, but now he really revolts me. He disgusts me, not in a dirty/clean way, but as a person. He's a real creep.Well I think that answers my question!
> I know I don't want his present because I don't want *anything* from him. I certainly don't want to feel like he has anything over me. Like I'm indebted to him. Which I know is dumb because it's just a stupid Christmas present ... but it's there anyway.That is anything but dumb. It's how you feel. One rule I have is: "My feelings are not subject to debate by anyone.....including me."
If this gift signifies indebtedness to someone who revolts you, then I think that you know what you need to do. So go ahead and do it. Write a little note, and get your husband or someone else to "courier" it. You don't have to confront him, just the idea in your head.
> > When you're the first person in a dysfunctional family to begin a process of healing, of boundary creation, of attribution of personal responsibilities, it seems like you're doing all the work. Maybe you are, at first. It's hard not to have some sort of expectation that the rest of the family might catch on to the same ideas that you're starting to catch onto. But here, you can lead by example.
> >
> > Just doing it differently this year was noticed. Count on that. Expect to have people wonder why you made this choice. Expect the odd bump in the road of understanding. You may want to think about how you're going to answer the inevitable questions. Your answer should respect boundaries, too. If you succeed in putting respect back into the dynamic, others are going to want more of that.
> Thank you for this Larry. It really clarified how I'm feeling.You're very welcome. As you might have guessed, I've walked this path.
> I keep picturing that me and my family have stumbled upon this giant, ugly, ferocious monster ready to attack us. And while I'm standing there with a sword prepared to defend myself and chase it off, the others are all wandering around going "Monster? What monster? I can't see any monsters" and then just wander away to leave me to fight it alone.
The big issue is denial. Absolutely. The single most revolutionary book I ever read on the subject was John Bradshaw's "Bradshaw On: The Family". I understand it's in a revised form today. It's all about boundaries, and family roles, and denial.
> I've printed out your post for my journal to remind myself of what you said.
That's very touching. Thank you for saying that. Affirmation goes a long way.
> > I admire your courage. One step at a time.
>
> Ack. I don't feel courageous. I feel like I've just handled things by avoiding them (as usual). The only difference was that this time I chose to avoid rather than just running on avoidant autopilot.Controlling your environment, rather than letting it control you, takes courage. It's ownership of your space. It's taking responsibility for the outcomes. The reason nobody in your family of origin sees the monster is because no one is responsible. Everybody is just playing a role, as in a play. To them, it just is that way.
> And I know that's not right. I had to confront to avoid and that's the courageous part. But still ... ack.Yes, exactly. The work will be hard, at times. But once begun, you can't go back. Denial, for you, is broken. Pace yourself. Choose your battles. Don't ever worry about retreating to take a break and resting up for the next conflict. Soon, this will just be the new normal.
Lar
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