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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 4 to 28 of 28. Go back in thread:
Posted by alexandra_k on November 9, 2004, at 22:56:32
In reply to Re: Hmm, posted by gardenergirl on November 9, 2004, at 21:15:03
I think that there is some truth in the notion that people are drawn to the theories that make the most sense for them, for their lives. But then sometimes we adopt a theorietical orientation out of familiarity. I know a guy (who is currently waiting to hear if his clinical application is successful) who was really into Freud. He was pretty staunch on CBT being superficial and unsatisfying, but now, after studying it for several years (he never had the option of studying anything psychodynamic) well, now he just won't shut up about CBT and the virtues of 'social skills training'.
All the therapy I have done (aside from my current therapy, and a bit a while back when I had a p-doc before) - has been CBT. But within that approach different therapists differed with respect to the extent that they were willing to talk about the past, focus on emotion etc etc.
CBT seems best for people who function pretty highly in general, then get sick (anxiety or depression) for the first time having never had any therapy. But it just doesn't do it for me personally.
Posted by mandinka on November 10, 2004, at 3:18:27
In reply to Re: Hmm, posted by alexandra_k on November 9, 2004, at 22:56:32
I think another reason therapists are drawn to particular types of therapy is to boost their defenses. CBT would be good for those practitioners who want to keep their emotions under wraps and not really deal for them. A rationalization. I guess it would be ideal for intellectual narcissists.
I completely sympathize with GG. I also believe in long term therapy that reaches really deep and doesn't shun emotions. Emotions are the thoughts of the unconscious and the power of the unconscious is so much vaster than that of the conscious part of ourselves. Besides, how can you fix things that are hidden there in the deep recesses by manipulating just the surface, the conscious part of our brain? It's like fixing a house by painting the siding, while the foundation is crumbling.
I agree that CBT is good for people who do not have really serious problems - especially problems that go right down into the preverbal stage of developement. I guess CBT can train patients to change their thought patterns but - at least from my layperson's perspective - it does little to address in a satisfactory manner the underlying issues.
Then again, I'm pretty radical in my "all or nothing" approach to dealing with problems... ;)
Posted by sunny10 on November 10, 2004, at 8:14:48
In reply to Re: Hmm, posted by mandinka on November 10, 2004, at 3:18:27
that's EXACTLY it- I look good on the outside- but I'm crumbling on the inside.
And the CBT seems to work for a few years, and then the amount of effort that it takes "acting" (ie; pretending) a certain way is so exhausting that the depression takes over again.
I have been through this particular scenario four times in 37 yrs, starting at 17 and the years between of "acting normal" before the major depression hits are getting fewer instead of greater.
And THAT'S why I don't believe that CBT is working for ME. Yes, I'm sure also that it works for some.
-sunny10
Posted by mandinka on November 10, 2004, at 13:08:30
In reply to Re: Hmm » mandinka, posted by sunny10 on November 10, 2004, at 8:14:48
Well, as I'm a strong advocate of regressive therapies which DO work and have the power to change you in a fundamental way, I can only advise you to try it out.
It's not for the faint of heart but it will transform you, although there are no miracles - it's a long process and the degrees of change are different for different people.
Again I would suggest reading Arthur Janov's books. They are an eye-opening experience. Alice Miller's books are also very good, although she isn't really into regressive therapy - she tried it once, when it was still in its infancy with rather bad results. My favorite Alice Miller books are:
"Thou Shalt Not Be Aware""
The second one being perfect for csa victims. It also contains a powerful critique of traditional psychotherapy.
Try googling "primal therapy" but avoid all pages that use the term "primal scream therapy". Those who use that phrase do it because they are either ignorant (and why would you want to read something written by someone who doesn't know what they are talking about?) or deliberately misleading and hostile.
You cannot go wrong with John Speyrer's webpage:
It was a wealth of information on regressive therapies.
Just some food for thought... :)
Posted by sunny10 on November 10, 2004, at 14:48:54
In reply to Re: Hmm » sunny10, posted by mandinka on November 10, 2004, at 13:08:30
Posted by sunny10 on November 10, 2004, at 15:23:27
In reply to Re: Hmm » sunny10, posted by mandinka on November 10, 2004, at 13:08:30
Just read through it, and it sounds like what I was referring to- finding a way to release all of that tension/pain from long ago so that the CBT can WORK !
I looked on the referral pg, found one in the neighboring big city, and sent her an email asking if she was still practicing PT and how much it costs...
Thanks for the info to get me that far, at least. I guess the next part is "will she call me?"
-sunny10
Posted by mandinka on November 10, 2004, at 16:56:36
In reply to Re: Hmm » mandinka, posted by sunny10 on November 10, 2004, at 15:23:27
I think it would be a good idea for you to read on Speyrer's website the articles by Paul Vereshack about the does and don'ts of PT and the qualities a PT practitioner should have.
All people that underwent good PT stress that a good primal therapist should be absolutely willing to talk with you about their own past and experiences as a form of mirroring you and gaining your trust. Listen to your gut when you meet this woman. Is she sincere? What is her training - the official one from a university and in PT? Is she down to earth or plays a guru (any role except being her true self)? How much regressive therapy has she undergone (this is important!)? I personally like someone with ETS training (Emerson Training Seminars). William Emerson is THE specialist in pre and perinatal trauma, a subject you are very likely to hit against sooner or later in this therapy.
If you need a practitioner you can also try the webpage:
http://www.heartcenteredtherapies.org
And check out the referral list there.
Good luck and keep me updated on the progress! :)
Posted by sunny10 on November 11, 2004, at 7:46:08
In reply to Re: Hmm » sunny10, posted by mandinka on November 10, 2004, at 16:56:36
I'll try to remember to refer to your post when/if she calls, though, thanks ! I DO want to be sure I ask the right questions... when/if she answers, I'll ask you what her answers mean (wink).
Posted by mandinka on November 11, 2004, at 17:13:21
In reply to Re: Hmm- haven't gotten a return call, yet » mandinka, posted by sunny10 on November 11, 2004, at 7:46:08
She could refer you to someone else, if she isn't taking on new patients.
Posted by mandinka on November 11, 2004, at 23:48:54
In reply to Give her some time. Maybe then call her... » sunny10, posted by mandinka on November 11, 2004, at 17:13:21
--I can do some networking through my Ts to find someone in your area. You'd just have to let me know close to which big city you're living.
But that's of course the next step if you run out of options. :)
Posted by sunny10 on November 12, 2004, at 8:26:50
In reply to And if you need help, sunny--, posted by mandinka on November 11, 2004, at 23:48:54
Well, I have to go thru my insurance company- even with just the co-pays it adds up...
Am I the only one who has managed to hold down a job all my life (for all but 6 truly horrid months about three yrs ago), but have no savings, no credit, et cetera because of the self-defeating side of depression?? Wrong choices, bad relationships, et cetera? I hold a decent job, but can never save, never go on vacation; it's like life is a prison I can't escape!?
Oops, again, I digress... anyway, there are lots of "names" in the referral book, but I don't really know that I'm asking the right kinds of questions to end up wth the right type of T.
That's why I'm going to refer back to your earlier post when I "unfreeze" myself on this issue...
-sunny10
Posted by mandinka on November 13, 2004, at 5:46:49
In reply to Re: And if you need help... » mandinka, posted by sunny10 on November 12, 2004, at 8:26:50
You're not alone there. In fact you are in a better position than me, because you're working and I'm not. I'm completely dependant on my husband. And yes, we spend all our money and have no savings whatsoever. We don't even have our own place so we live in a rented apartment. But my husband is a great guy, who likes me just the way I am and doesn't mind paying the bills for my therapy.
I really hope you'll fall into the lap of the right primal therapist and have a great relationship with her (or him)! :)
Posted by sunny10 on November 15, 2004, at 9:55:30
In reply to Re: And if you need help... » sunny10, posted by mandinka on November 13, 2004, at 5:46:49
Primal T called, listened, asked questions, and after she discovered that I couldn't afford her fee she suggested I find a group...
We rent, too...
Back to the drawing board,
-suuny10
Posted by mandinka on November 15, 2004, at 18:21:49
In reply to Re: And if you need help... » mandinka, posted by sunny10 on November 15, 2004, at 9:55:30
Maybe the next one on the list will charge a reasonable fee...
Posted by mandinka on November 15, 2004, at 19:05:09
In reply to Re: And if you need help... » sunny10, posted by mandinka on November 15, 2004, at 18:21:49
If you want to, try contacting and interviewing several Ts at the same time and make a pick. Also, asking about referrals wouldn't hurt...
Posted by sunny10 on November 16, 2004, at 8:10:49
In reply to Re: And if you need help..., posted by mandinka on November 15, 2004, at 19:05:09
Maybe I'm supposed to feel this way... maybe I'm "normal", whatever that is....
Maybe I'm just more vocal in my discomfort and EVERYONE feels the same way about life- they just hide their feelings...
I don't even know what to think anymore- I'm too tired to think.
Posted by Daisym on November 16, 2004, at 12:34:40
In reply to Re: And if you need help... » mandinka, posted by sunny10 on November 16, 2004, at 8:10:49
Butting in here,
I think what you are feeling IS normal, you are frustrated and trying to figure a way out. One of the things therapy can do is help you look at old patterns and change them. Many people, most in fact, go to therapy for just that reason. You don't have to have some huge trauma or diagnosis to make use of therapy.
I do know how expensive it can all get. Sometimes you can a county referral and many nonprofits have a sliding scale. I don't know where you live, so that might make a difference. Church run organizations also have mental health professionals sometimes.
I guess I wanted to jump in because you "sounded" so defeated and sad. Don't give up. You'll find the right person to help you and things will slowly change. Maybe a group would be a good thing right now. At least you would have support.
hugs
Daisy
Posted by sunny10 on November 16, 2004, at 13:51:25
In reply to Re: And if you need help..., posted by Daisym on November 16, 2004, at 12:34:40
Hope you guys don't mind... I have adopted you as my group...
I've tried to get someone to help me "get over" my upbringing and the subsequent "past" I've accumulated because of my upbringing, but all the therapists in my health plan want me to just "move on- don't look back". I admit that that type of therapy has helped me learn "coping skills", but wouldn't it be healthier to not internalize the stress this "acting" causes?? I've never been more bodily unhealthy as I've been since starting the Cognitive Behavioral Techniques.... My bowels are a mess, my migraines have come back, I have a continually pinched nerve in my neck, et cetera, et cetera... I'm not mentioning this just to complain. I'm citing these things because if I could just get some kind of closure with the "I" that was created, I would hope that I could start to change and not HAVE to act anymore.
My frustrations are that BECAUSE I cope SO WELL, I can't get the type of help I WANT.
But, Daisym, thanks for letting me vent, sorry...
Posted by Daisym on November 16, 2004, at 14:01:51
In reply to Daisym, posted by sunny10 on November 16, 2004, at 13:51:25
Venting is good...really good for you, actually.
You have my total sympathy. I knew nothing when I started this whole process, so I think I'm fortunate to have found a therapist who wants to sort it all out and heal things. I, like you, know how to cover it all up and COPE, thank you very much.
Relationship-based therapy is gaining ground again. Hopefully you'll find someone soon.
Posted by sunny10 on November 16, 2004, at 19:09:59
In reply to Re: Daisym, posted by Daisym on November 16, 2004, at 14:01:51
nah, I give up !! Going to save my energy for my "coping skills"....
Posted by mandinka on November 17, 2004, at 1:58:10
In reply to Re: Daisym, posted by sunny10 on November 16, 2004, at 19:09:59
I'm not surprised you had health issues when you got into CBT, sunny. All those problems you're carrying around had to find an outlet. If you cannot act them out psychologically, your body acts them out by somatizing.
I think it's a great decision for you to try PT. If you could find a primal (regressive in general) therapist that also specializes in reparenting, then you would have hit the bullseye. You're right that you don't want to have your problems just painted over. In a way the terrible way you feel is a blessing in disguise because it gives you the push you need to find the help you really need.
And just like Daisy, I strongly believe in the power of the client/therapist relationship.
Please, don't give up. I'd love to see sunny shine. :)
Daisy, I dreamt about you today. I dreamt that I was describing you to T3 and the words that came to my mind were: sweetheart, compassionate and honest. Seriously!
Posted by sunny10 on November 17, 2004, at 7:58:34
In reply to For sunny and Daisy, posted by mandinka on November 17, 2004, at 1:58:10
She is certainly all of those things and more !
Posted by Daisym on November 17, 2004, at 13:17:00
In reply to For sunny and Daisy, posted by mandinka on November 17, 2004, at 1:58:10
Thanks you guys. Nice words were much needed this morning. I was thinking about myself in terms of flowers yesterday. I think it is interesting the Daisies do best in bunches, they are often the background flower for the more elegant "stand alone" flower...like roses. I've always like daisies, they feel like hearty, honest flowers. So I guess I'm not a standout, I like completing the picture.
I'm glad I can help occasionally. Therapy is such a hard undertaking. I'm glad we have each other to get through it.
Posted by sunny10 on November 17, 2004, at 14:56:11
In reply to Ahhh, Shucks!, posted by Daisym on November 17, 2004, at 13:17:00
Daisies are also the strongest, most versatile, naturally occurring flower! Don't forget that!
Posted by mandinka on November 17, 2004, at 18:18:20
In reply to Re: Daisies, posted by sunny10 on November 17, 2004, at 14:56:11
I'd add that daisies are also innocent and unpretentious. They have a "twinkle" in them - like a plucky little girl's smile.
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