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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by cubic_me on November 3, 2004, at 12:54:44
It was my second session in group today. Of the 8 of us there last week 7 turned up this week. It was a really good session actually, considering we hardly know each other. However despite it being just like a group session is meant to be, I really didn't find it beneficial (except that I love people watching!) I just don't want to talk about really personal things with a load of people. Basically my main issues are depression, self injury and suicidal ideation, and there is no chance that I will tell them about the second two of those as I don't want to put worrying things onto vulnerable people.
And what happens if I do get really suicidal again? We've already agreed that we won't talk to the group supervisor (therapist) outside of group, and I don't have my own therapist. I suppose I feel more alone now than before group, because everyone else seems to be able to talk about their own problems, but I can't talk about mine.
Posted by pegasus on November 3, 2004, at 13:16:57
In reply to The 2nd Group Session, posted by cubic_me on November 3, 2004, at 12:54:44
Oh, wow, I hear this! That's how I felt in group as well. Especially because I wasn't nearly as assertive as other people in the group. So we spent a lot of time working on the assertive people's stuff, and very little directly on mine. For which I blame the group leaders, but having someone to blame didn't really help the situation.
I also had issues with suicidal thoughts and SI. My reason for being in the group was to try to become more comfortable talking about my SI to other people. But group didn't realy accomplish that for me. I just felt more hidden and secretive.
I'm really concerned about your group being offered to you only as a substitute for individual therapy. Especially since you have a history of suicidal thoughts, and you have an agreement not to contact the group leader outside of sessions. My experience has been that group sometimes brings up stuff that I *need* to go over in my individual therapy. I wouldn't want to do a group without also an individual therapist.
I can see how you'd feel that you've been left high and dry. Can you talk about this with the facilitator in a session, or before or after one? Or can you contact your old T and mention it? You really need to have more support than this, I think.
Much luck!
pegasus
Posted by cubic_me on November 4, 2004, at 11:54:30
In reply to Re: The 2nd Group Session, posted by pegasus on November 3, 2004, at 13:16:57
It's good to know that I'm not on my own in feeling this way - thankyou so much for responing.
I tend to say enough in the group, but never things that are really about me - more stuff in response to what other people say.
> I also had issues with suicidal thoughts and SI. My reason for being in the group was to try to become more comfortable talking about my SI to other people. But group didn't realy accomplish that for me. I just felt more hidden and secretive.
I think that this is likely to happen with me too. I can't see myself telling the group about my SI and the therapist is a different one to the individual one I saw, so she doesn't know about the SI/SU.
> I can see how you'd feel that you've been left high and dry. Can you talk about this with the facilitator in a session, or before or after one? Or can you contact your old T and mention it?
We've been asked not to talk to the facilitator before or after the session because the group may feel that we are being secretive. I broached this subject in the group (saying something like, 'what if there was something I wanted you to know, but didn't want the group to know?') but that didn't come up with any answers.
Cubic x
Posted by pegasus on November 4, 2004, at 13:22:45
In reply to Re: The 2nd Group Session » pegasus, posted by cubic_me on November 4, 2004, at 11:54:30
Can you maybe tell the group in general terms that you have some issues that you are not comfortable discussing in the group, but for which you really feel you need support, and that now that you're in the group, you feel that you've lost the support you used to have for those issues via your individual therapist? It might lead to an interesting discussion anyway. Although, they'll probably try to get you to tell them what the issues are, so you'd have to be ready for that.
Personally, I think it sounds like a group is not the right place for you right now. If you're not ready to try to talk about these things with other people, then you need to have *somewhere* that you can talk about them, and get the support that you need. A group is only a good substitute for individual therapy if you're ready to work on everything in the open within the group, which doesn't seem to be the case for you (and I totally understand). Do you have any other options? What about talking to your old T?
pegasus
Posted by sunny10 on November 5, 2004, at 12:24:51
In reply to Re: The 2nd Group Session, posted by pegasus on November 4, 2004, at 13:22:45
Interesting thing about "group" is that often it's the FIRST place people with SI are put. If you wind up in hospital- you are automatically in group (at least in PA, USA). If you manage to not get to hospital, barely, they stick you in a "day treatment center"- which is group.
But I definitely got the feeling that the group leaders are VERY attuned to what you DON'T say about yourself AND what your responses are to others. And they usually don't let you LEAVE without getting an individual T set up when the group sessions are done if they see that you obviously still have issues.
I get the feeling that the insurance companies (or government agencies, if you are uninsured/ underinsured)are using these group leaders as a kind of triage. I think they feel that our T's would basically want us to see them forever- we are, after all, their bread and butter. With group, there is an unbiased opinion on your progress.
Try to use it as a stepping stone if you feel it is not for you. And you have every right to speak to the group leader ABOUT YOUR PLACE in group during the session as suggested by Pegasus.
It does usually start an interesting session and provides the leader with fodder from everyone's reactions to the subject. They might even thank you!-sunny10
Posted by cubic_me on November 5, 2004, at 18:32:48
In reply to Re: The 2nd Group Session, posted by pegasus on November 4, 2004, at 13:22:45
Hi Pegasus, in a few weeks time I may bring it up that I have some issues that I'm not ready to discuss yet - but that seems so lame when everyone else has the bottle to talk about there problems (even though there are probably things that they don't want to tell the group about either!) My main worry, especially regarding suicidal ideation, is that I don't want to worry the other group members. It's fair to say that sometimes I have been *very* close to suicide, and having had several suicidal friends in the past (one who was successful) it is not something I would want them to have to deal with. I guess if I feel that vulnerable again it would be excusable to talk to the facillitator in private, but to be honest I don't really like her that much (the group members are great tho :))
My individual and group therapy is free with the university that I am at, and their policy is not to attend group and individual at the same time (because of resources I think), so if I want to talk to my old T I'd have to leave group. She said that I am welcome to go back to her if group doesn't work out, but I don't want to make that step backwards really.
Thankyou so much for your suggestions. Can I ask, how did group go for you? Did you get anything out of it?
Posted by cubic_me on November 5, 2004, at 18:39:34
In reply to Re: The 2nd Group Session, posted by sunny10 on November 5, 2004, at 12:24:51
Hi Sunny, thanks for your response. I think that some of what you said is definately true, although I am in the UK, so I'm not too sure about how the US system works (especially with all the differences between states!)
SI isn't my main problem, and it isn't really a big issue for me - my therapist didn't even know about it until I'd been seeing her for over a year.
I certainly agree that group leaders are tuned in to what you don't say as well as what you do - maybe she will act on what she percieves, or maybe not, we'll see.
When I pluck up the courage to talk a little more about myself I will probably broach the subject in a roundabout way (see the post adressed to Pegasus), but I'll have to get a little more comfortable in group first. In a way I think it's good that I want to wait a while, my defences are there for a reason, and I don't want to go into things unprotected or unprepared.
I'll keep you guys posted.
Posted by pegasus on November 7, 2004, at 14:31:30
In reply to Re: The 2nd Group Session » pegasus, posted by cubic_me on November 5, 2004, at 18:32:48
Wow, cubic, you can't even have a brief phone chat with your old T? That's really sad and sounds hard. No wonder you don't feel sufficiently supported.
Your plan sounds reasonable to me, except that I'm really worried about you dealing with such strong suicidal thinking on your own. I bet that if any of the professionals involved knew about that, they would want to get you better support as well. But I can understand you point about wanting to protect the group from that emotional turmoil.
Personally, I found that group wasn't incredibly helpful for me. Where I was with my issues, and what my personality is like, are not really right for the group setting. At times they really pushed me to share, when I was definitely not ready to. That felt scary and threatening to me. Plus then I had a lot of guilt about not participating fully.
On the other hand, a couple of times I got some helpful insights. But in general I have to say that I've gotten much more out of individual therapy. I don't see group as being a more advanced thing (i.e., closer to cured). It's just a totally different type of thing. It didn't work well for me. But it seems to be very beneficial for other folks.
pegasus
pegasus
Posted by sunny10 on November 9, 2004, at 10:10:40
In reply to Re: The 2nd Group Session » sunny10, posted by cubic_me on November 5, 2004, at 18:39:34
But Pegasus is right by saying that any SI -especially if NOT talked about in group- needs to be dealt with.
It's not "going backwards" if you never really went through it with your T in the first place. It may not be "the underlying problem" (which is hardly ever the case, in my experience), but it has become a symptom. The symptoms need to be dealt with, too, IMO.
Hope it helps!
-suuny10
Posted by cubic_me on November 9, 2004, at 19:05:28
In reply to Re: The 2nd Group Session » cubic_me, posted by pegasus on November 7, 2004, at 14:31:30
> Wow, cubic, you can't even have a brief phone chat with your old T?
I guess I could phone her up as a one off, but I've never spoken with her over the phone except to rearrange appointments - it's just not something that was offered, so it would be a hard thing for me to do (I hate talking on phones!)
>
> Your plan sounds reasonable to me, except that I'm really worried about you dealing with such strong suicidal thinking on your own. I bet that if any of the professionals involved knew about that, they would want to get you better support as well.My T did know about this, and I told her that I know I am likely to experience similar episodes in the future. We talked a little bit about how I would cope with them, but none of those stragegies involved what I would do in group. I'm not in danger at the moment, so I'll deal with it if it happens.
Cubic
Posted by cubic_me on November 9, 2004, at 19:15:33
In reply to Re: The 2nd Group Session » cubic_me, posted by sunny10 on November 9, 2004, at 10:10:40
Hi Sunny,
yes, I suppose the SI does have to be dealt with, but it is honestly not that bad and I don't feel ready to stop at the moment. I have found that I have been cutting less since I stopped individual therapy. I don't think that that is because my T was bad, more that I was having to deal with some very difficult issues and I needed some kind of comfort before I could funtion again in the real world. Group isn't really scratching the surface emotionally - maybe that will come with time.
Posted by sunny10 on November 10, 2004, at 8:01:13
In reply to Re: The 2nd Group Session » sunny10, posted by cubic_me on November 9, 2004, at 19:15:33
sounds to me like your T knows what they're doing, then.
sometimes group can be a good place to start getting comfortable with the PROCESS of therapy. If you were cutting MORE during individual therapy, maybe your therapist wanted you to experience group to achieve a "therapy comfort level", so that when you begin again with your T it won't stress you out to the point of cutting.
Go through the process. When you start talking out about what YOU need often during group- and not just offering support to everyone else- you'll be ready to get something valuable for yourself out of your T.
It helped me out a lot in that way. In fact, I think you've just talked me into finding my way into a group setting again, as I've hit a plateau with my individual T and don't know what I want/expect from her anymore.
So thank you,
sunny10
Posted by cubic_me on November 12, 2004, at 16:43:38
In reply to Re: The 2nd Group Session » cubic_me, posted by sunny10 on November 10, 2004, at 8:01:13
Sunny, it's great you've come to that decision, I hope it goes well for you - I'd love it if you keep me updated.
About what you said - I'm not going back to individual therapy after group (as far as I know), I think I was just struggling so much with individual that my T made the suggestion of group and I thought I'd give it a go. I *hate* being dependent or a burden, and I thought that being in a group would be less burdening on the T because I'd be sharing her time with 7 others.
Posted by sunny10 on November 15, 2004, at 9:51:18
In reply to Re: The 2nd Group Session » sunny10, posted by cubic_me on November 12, 2004, at 16:43:38
I still say you're worth a T all to yourself...I just tell myself that I pay them, therefore I am not a burden, I am a Job... There is a difference...
I'll let you know what happens... The Primal T called me back Friday night, she was very kind and spent a while with me on the phone. After I answered all of her questions, she suggested finding a group !
Back to square 1, I guess...
Thanks for listening,
sunny10
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