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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 23 of 23. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Daisym on November 2, 2004, at 20:20:32
I'm posting instead of doing my homework.
Part of what is going on for me in therapy seems to be a re-enactment of some kind. I'm really struggling with sex right now, especially coping with the flashbacks that come during and after. But I haven't been talking to my therapist about this, if felt like a betrayal of my husband somehow. And I think I didn't want to let my therapist down by not being strong enough to follow through on any of his suggestions. So I kept it to myself. But the little kid part of me really, really wanted him to know, to see that I was suffering, without having to actually tell him. So "we" were mad at him for not being magic (to steal Dinah's term).
Yesterday was blurt day. After yelling at him last week, and with some support from friends, it became clear that this needed to get talked about. Yesterday he wanted to process why I hadn't been telling him...and he outlined the whole "don't tell mom about dad" script for me. Painful. Very painful...old patterns and habits that refuse to die, I guess. But he completely closed the gap between us, made me see that I could tell him anything and he wouldn't throw me out or running screaming from the room. (I hope this certainty last more than a week this time.)
Today, it was more about the actual subject of sex and flashbacks. He had some helpful suggestions for the adult me but he really wanted to talk directly to little daisy...and she wanted to talk to him. He said it sounded to him like she wanted him to put a stop to all this, to call up my hubby or have him come to a session where my therapist could stand up to him and tell him that he was devastating little daisy. The adult me gasped...but he got it right. That is exactly what little daisy wanted. And she told him that she wanted him to "hold" her afterward, and tell her it wasn't her fault. So they talked about it not being her fault ever...not now, not in the past. And he gently told her he couldn't call, as much as he wanted to protect her, not to my hubby and not to her dad or her mom but that he was there for her around all this. And she cried and cried.
My homework is to write down all the ways "we" could say no to things that make us uncomfortable and bring it to therapy tomorrow. (I told him I was putting pantyhose on the list, he laughed.) But he said he wanted to be clear with me that he didn't want me to share it with anyone yet, we need to practice saying no, in such a way that little daisy isn't even more traumatized. That writing it was only the first step to getting ready for a big leap.
I'm just so blown away that what she wants (to be saved) is so different from what I want (to learn how to cope). I beginning to wonder if we will ever get on the same page. And I think my therapist is showing favoritism. He talks so soft and nice to her!! Can you have sibling rivalry with yourself? *sigh*
Posted by Dinah on November 2, 2004, at 20:26:39
In reply to What I want, What she wants, posted by Daisym on November 2, 2004, at 20:20:32
You are so lucky. My therapist tells me to just "go away". That there is no need to stay, but there is a need to ummm... fulfill my marital obligations.
Sigh.
Posted by fallsfall on November 2, 2004, at 22:15:29
In reply to What I want, What she wants, posted by Daisym on November 2, 2004, at 20:20:32
>But he said he wanted to be clear with me that he didn't want me to share it with anyone yet
*** What did he mean by this?
I'm just so blown away that what she wants (to be saved) is so different from what I want (to learn how to cope). I beginning to wonder if we will ever get on the same page. And I think my therapist is showing favoritism. He talks so soft and nice to her!! Can you have sibling rivalry with yourself? *sigh*
*** He would be soft and nice to you, too if you would allow yourself to need him...
I think that both of you will need to move towards the center. The solution will be a compromise. Neither you nor little daisy are going to convince the other to abandon her position and take up the opposite position.
You are doing really well, Daisy. This is very hard.
Posted by daisym on November 2, 2004, at 23:08:06
In reply to Re: What I want, What she wants » Daisym, posted by fallsfall on November 2, 2004, at 22:15:29
Thanks Falls. This is really hard.
I think what he meant about not sharing it yet was practicing with him instead of just blurting it out the "wrong" way to my hubby. I tend to jump in sometimes when I'm not really ready. And if I get an angry reaction or complete rejection, I'll just crumple back down. And I think we need to keep talking about that compromise you suggested. Little daisy is not going to get her way on this completely, of course.
It was hard to hear him say today, "I'm really worried about you. This isn't good for you, to feel so completely powerless around this. Self-sacrifice is not an option I wish for you." It is so not like me...I look in the mirror and wonder why the director doesn't come home with me at night.
However, he was very reassuring at the end and said he was very glad I talked to him about all this and I didn't have to do or change anything right now, he wouldn't be disappointed in me or upset. Good thing since I have no idea what to do right now.
Posted by mandinka on November 3, 2004, at 3:57:46
In reply to Re: What I want, What she wants » fallsfall, posted by daisym on November 2, 2004, at 23:08:06
Every time you write about your relationship with your T I'm smilling, daisy. It's so great you have someone like him to support you. :)
Posted by Dinah on November 3, 2004, at 7:51:42
In reply to Re: What I want, What she wants » Daisym, posted by Dinah on November 2, 2004, at 20:26:39
It's sort of a sore spot with me.
Posted by fallsfall on November 3, 2004, at 8:56:36
In reply to Re: What I want, What she wants » Daisym, posted by Dinah on November 2, 2004, at 20:26:39
Posted by Daisym on November 3, 2004, at 11:26:29
In reply to Re: Sorry to have been flippant, Daisy, posted by Dinah on November 3, 2004, at 7:51:42
No need for sorry. It is a really hard subject and I think you've expressed frustration around it before. You can go to my next session instead of me, OK? I must say that my therapist is in top form this week. Sometimes I wonder if he is reading Babble...nah...??
And you know how much I care about you because I wouldn't offer that to just anyone. :)
Posted by Poet on November 3, 2004, at 11:37:13
In reply to What I want, What she wants, posted by Daisym on November 2, 2004, at 20:20:32
Hi Daisy,
Deep down maybe what she wants is what you need. I know that's a scary idea. Feel free to ignore it as I am hardly an expert on revealing my needs and feelings in therapy.
Your T may seem to be favoring Little Daisy because he wants to really build trust with her. Don't be jealous, she's a part of you that needs compassion and needs to be heard. Though I know that what she says is painful.
Best of luck with your homework. I wish I could offer advice, but sex is a subject that I avoid. I would run and take Little Poet with me. Don't follow that advice.
((((Daisy))))) (((((Little Daisy)))))
Poet
Posted by Aphrodite on November 3, 2004, at 13:58:33
In reply to What I want, What she wants, posted by Daisym on November 2, 2004, at 20:20:32
Is it at all possible that the adult part of you *does* want to be saved too, but thinks the proper thing is just to learn to cope? When it comes to this issue, *all* the parts of me want saving. It's just not practical, though. If you are willing to share, (email if better, or not at all) what were the suggestions for the adult part of you that were not working? I just know that when the child hurts, adult solutions don't make sense.
This is such a terribly painful issues for survivors of csa; it robs our rightful joy out of sexuality. I'm so sorry you're struggling, and I am glad little Daisy expressed her desire to be rescued. She should have been rescued when she was little. Maybe she can get some soothing from your T and from adult Daisy, too.
Best of luck to you. Hugs.
Posted by Pfinstegg on November 3, 2004, at 17:30:50
In reply to Re: What I want, What she wants » Daisym, posted by Aphrodite on November 3, 2004, at 13:58:33
I'm experiencing just the same thing that you are, Daisy. New memories of sexual abuse are suddenly coming up, and the adult me is sort of on a *back burner*. My analyst suggested asking my husband's co-operation in not having actual intercourse just now, and suggested substituting gentle foreplay only, for now. This seems to be a pretty good compromise, for the time being. I did tell my husband enough of what was coming up in therapy so that he might understand and be empathic, which he has been.
I was startled, as I almost always am, by how *separate* my girl part actually is. Before the memories could surface, little pfinstegg was repeatedly asking me if my therapist owned an axe or a gun. She did not seem to dare to ask him. I didn't know why this was happening, but I would try to reassure her that he did not, and was not the kind of man who would chop down a lot of trees, or shoot birds or animals. She just kept asking- all day long, and never seemed to be convinced. (I grew up on a farm, and my actual father was constantly chopping down trees and shooting birds, squirrels, rats, etc. He usually had a gun or an axe in his hands)
Then, this week, he said, "perhaps you were afraid that he would hurt you with his axe or gun if you told anyone."
That was like a dam breaking. Whether he actually threatened me, I don't know, but it allowed things which I have NEVER remembered before to flood into my mind. I don't want to describe them, but I know other people who have been through it know what I'm talking about. I went from intense fear,sobbing and shame to relief and peace all in one session. It had taken so much energy and anxiety to keep this out of consciousness for so long. We (my analyst and I) ended on such a close, peaceful note- we each knew we had done something really important- together.
Posted by antigua on November 4, 2004, at 11:53:38
In reply to Re: What I want, What she fears (Daisy), posted by Pfinstegg on November 3, 2004, at 17:30:50
I'm really happy for you and proud of you that you had such a big breakthrough. We can work and work at it, feel stuck and then one little thing will unleash the feelings. It's hard, but I'm happy you came to the peace too.
best,
antigua
Posted by daisym on November 4, 2004, at 13:02:18
In reply to Re: What I want, What she fears (Daisy), posted by Pfinstegg on November 3, 2004, at 17:30:50
Sounds like a powerful session. I've had a couple of those, where the younger parts of me speak almost directly, releasing emotions.
You are lucky to have such an understanding husband. Did he know about the abuse before? One of my major hurtles is that I told my husband before we were married (almost 22 years ago) that my dad had "touched me" inappropriately. He basically said, "OH. Are you sure it was meant like you took it? Not like tickling or anything?" I ended that discussion pretty quickly. I was in a space of completely denying that this had any impact on me and my life at all. And I didn't remember how far it had all gone and how many years it went on. And my dad is part of my life now, though he doesn't live close, so he and my husband have a relationship, even though they don't really like each other. My children adore my dad, he is great grandpa. Go figure.
So to now say, "don't touch me, it brings on a flashback" would mean explaining the flashback and the extent of the abuse and trusting him to keep it confidential. I just can't do that right now. So I have to figure out how to protect little Daisy without just saying no.
My therapy appointment yesterday was full of tears and intense longings to be protected. I had such a hard time leaving, both because the world seemed so threatening and because I was convinced that I would close the door and he would shake his head and decide I was hopeless and he was tired to trying to get me to do things I couldn't. He told me a bunch of times that he knew it was really hard for me to set personal boundaries, I never learned how. He said he was sure over time I would. And I would learn how to speak up about sex, but I had to feel safe and work through some of these powerful emotions first. He reminded me that he was very patient and I didn't need to do anything just because I thought he wanted me to.
I didn't do the homework he asked for, but instead wrote a letter to my husband about how sex was for me right now, and what I wished was different. I did that before bed. At 3am, I wrote another one, from little Daisy, about what she thought about sex and how upsetting it all was. She was brutal and angry and really honest. I took both of them with me to my appointment and we read them together. He had tears in his eyes from the second one, because it was so intense. But he said it was the first real step to healing her feelings...letting her be angry and honest. Anger scares me...
In the end he reminded me to take him with me and to call him later, just to touch base and feel safe. And he asked me to let her keep writing, which is so very hard. But when he called at 9pm, he was gentle and joked with me and really soothed those fears of him disappearing. So she didn't write, she just went quiet for awhile.
Have I said this is really hard? How do you quiet down in between sessions? I need suggestions because ice cream and cream of wheat aren't working as well as they use to.
I think it is going to be a long weekend.
Posted by Pfinstegg on November 4, 2004, at 19:12:30
In reply to Re: What I want, What she fears (Daisy) » Pfinstegg, posted by antigua on November 4, 2004, at 11:53:38
Thank you, antigua. It sounds as though you have had that same peaceful, "at one" feeling with your therapist after finally being able to talk about and remember something very painful and traumatic. I feel that, after months of frustrating struggle, I got a lot better in just that one session- the younger part of me is not alone any more with her shame and terror. Thank you for your encouraging message- I really appreciate it..
Posted by Pfinstegg on November 4, 2004, at 19:48:59
In reply to Re: What I want, What she fears » Pfinstegg, posted by daisym on November 4, 2004, at 13:02:18
You've got a more complex situation than I do, because your father is still alive and part of your life- and your husband's and children's. I do think that makes it harder. My husband always knew my father was physically and verbally abusive, but not sexually- because I didn't know it, exactly, either. Like yours', they actually had a good relationship, and enjoyed doing things together. Because he died ten years ago, we are a little freer to talk to each other honestly about everything now. I am so grateful that he does understand- the fact that he has started therapy himself makes him much more tuned in on things that might otherwise seem strange- like the different *parts*!
I can certainly empathize with those powerful feelings of needing one's therapist- every moment!-,of feeling abandonned just by MY walking out of his office, and of feeling that he can't stand working with me one session longer. When the memories I mentioned finally came into my mind, so I could communicate them to him, I began to feel a lot more confident about my relationship with him- all those fears seemed to melt away. For the moment, I think more parts of me feel attached and trusting; in contrast to almost the whole of the past year, I feel now that we are very close, and that each of us enjoys working with one another, through thick and thin.. It honestly feels so good not to have these unconscious secrets causing so much anxiety- my *girl* now has a safe person to share them with for the first time.
I know I am really blessed and fortunate to be in analysis, going five times a week. This gives me the wonderful sense of security that it will not be long before I see him again. And, I have been doing this for 20 months, and it's only just now that this openness and security is present. It took all that time to get it- and I know I'll lose and gain it many. many times in the coming months (years?)
I was struck by the letters you were able to write from the two different parts of yourself- first the one to your husband, and then the one from little Daisy, expressing so much rage and need. I'm very impressed, and know how hard it is to access a range of emotions from such a long-ago part of ourselves. It sounds so important, and so healthy. Little pfinstegg is still more frozen than anything else. Just today, my analyst asked, "where is her anger?" I'm going to try your letter technique!
Posted by Joslynn on November 4, 2004, at 21:30:44
In reply to Re: What I want, What she fears » Pfinstegg, posted by daisym on November 4, 2004, at 13:02:18
Daisy, I have to ask...how can you not be in love with your therapist? I think I'm in love with him and I don't even know him! Calling in the evening with a gentle voice, seeing each other several times a wk...gosh, unless the man was really unattractive, I would fall in love with him, I don't know if I could help it.
I hope I don't sound glib, I really do wonder how you can not get a big crush on the guy, but maybe that is because you are marred.
I think I have a transference on your therapist! Like a transference transference???
Posted by Joslynn on November 4, 2004, at 21:40:18
In reply to Re: What I want, What she fears » daisym, posted by Joslynn on November 4, 2004, at 21:30:44
Married, not marred! Sorry that was a bad typo. Maybe reflects my fear of marriage.
Posted by Daisym on November 4, 2004, at 22:30:59
In reply to oops, I meant to type married, posted by Joslynn on November 4, 2004, at 21:40:18
LOL!
Seriously though, I feel marred sometimes. I think my attachment is so completely maternal that I haven't considered a crush. Maybe that comes in time?
And, he's not unattractive...very nice looking with the most soulful eyes...sometimes he wears black on black...yup, I do notice! I like his smile best because it goes all the way up to his eyes. He's not very tall though, Maybe 5'9"ish? Which is OK with me, as I'm only 5'2"ish, without heels.
Posted by Daisym on November 4, 2004, at 22:45:04
In reply to Re: What I want, What she fears » daisym, posted by Pfinstegg on November 4, 2004, at 19:48:59
I'm so glad to hear you are feeling so much safer, all the parts of you. That is a huge step forward. Releasing the memories can be a little like taking your finger out of the damn, the initial pressure is off but things still trickle through. And then a log comes and blows an even bigger hole in your damn. This is when we need the therapist with the life boat. I'm sure you will figure out how to unfreeze your girl soon. Hold her close and warm her up.
Tonight I tried so hard not to cry...I've been doing that all week. I'm going 4x's a week right now with calls on Friday because he says, "I'm really worried about you." It feels like all hell has broken loose. We were able to talk about yesterday, how vulnerable I was and how important the letters are. And we talked about how I can protect little daisy's feelings when having sex. My homework is to write a letter to her telling her how I can protect her, and if I can, her telling me what she needs to feel safe.
Continuing the conversation was hard, I wanted to stay away from it. The anger is scary. But I think he learned from last week, because instead of leaving the silence he leaned forward and said, "don't pull away from me. Talk to me, tell me what you're thinking, even if it is to tell me to go away." I laughed and burst into tears. And told him he HAD to stop making me cry. So he told me a knock, knock therapist joke. Totally the right way to end such a long week.
I tried to get away without scheduling a call tomorrow but the younger parts of me were throwing a fit and he just encourages them. *sigh* I'm secretly relieved. We all need him right now.
Posted by Dinah on November 4, 2004, at 23:02:09
In reply to Re: What I want, What she fears » daisym, posted by Pfinstegg on November 4, 2004, at 19:48:59
I'm so glad you're feeling that security! And you really have earned it with a lot of hard work.
And while it might crest and ebb over the coming months and years, you at least will know what it feels like and what to hold on to.
Posted by Pfinstegg on November 4, 2004, at 23:31:16
In reply to More Homework » Pfinstegg, posted by Daisym on November 4, 2004, at 22:45:04
It sounds as though you're having an *analysis* every bit as much as I am! My analyst thinks that it's very hard for people to reach different ego states without almost daily sessions. I think I agree, because I went to another T before him twice a week; it was so superficial by comparison, even though she was a very good and experienced T. I know my analyst feels bad about how costly really good treatment for serious things like csa and PTSD is. I know he wishes it were available to all the people who need it, but he knows that's impossible with insurance the way it is today. I'm glad that my husband and I are both working, and that our son is now in grad school with a fellowship covering all his costs- because it's clear where ALL of my salary goes!
It's such a comfort, and also very helpful, to be able to talk here to another person about these very private experiences. Sometimes I feel I really do need that support to keep going to my analyst; at other times, like now, I can see how wonderfully helpful this experience is, and hope I can communicate that to someone else, who may be in the desperate state I was in, say, two weeks ago!
Rage is hard. I think I'm afraid it will go onto my analyst by transference, and will jeopardize my new-found security. He says, though, whenever rage breaks through, "now we can communicate more fully", or "I'm glad this happened- I want all of you in here". Even with all this encouragement, there is only a certain rate at which my *girl* can progress. I'm in awe of the patience of our therapists: it's such a gift to us.
Posted by Pfinstegg on November 4, 2004, at 23:34:12
In reply to Re: What I want, What she fears » Pfinstegg, posted by Dinah on November 4, 2004, at 23:02:09
Thank you, Dinah! I didn't think it would ever happen.
Posted by fallsfall on November 5, 2004, at 7:31:16
In reply to More Homework » Pfinstegg, posted by Daisym on November 4, 2004, at 22:45:04
Repeat after me:
It is OK to cry.
It is OK to cry.
It is OK to cry.
It is OK to cry...You are doing such hard, hard, hard work right now. I'm glad you have a phone call scheduled for Friday.
You know, for a while, my teddy bear provided a barrier between my husband and me... He is a wonderful bear. Some day I'll tell you all about him.
I would like to hug little daisy until she starts getting a little restless, and then tickle her gently. Does she like to be tickled?
Falls.
This is the end of the thread.
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