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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 33. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by crushedout on October 31, 2004, at 1:15:22
This is going to be really hard, guys. But I've never felt more sure that it was the right thing to do. I lay awake a lot last night thinking about how angry I am at how ineffective, inconsistent, invalidating, and just generally f'ed up she's been with me.
I was thinking about how she said she was impatient and annoyed with me for being depressed and not being able to talk about it easily. (I was sitting there crying for chr*st's sake! Who can talk when they're crying?) And how unsympathetic she was this past week, when I was in a terrible funk and going through really hard stuff. And how I told her that was unhelpful for me, and she was like, "I understand that you *feel* like that was unhelpful, but I think that's what you really needed."
And then I thought about how I came in saying we really needed to address my transference issues, that they were urgent and we had to make them a priority, and she was like, "Whoa, slow down. Every time we do that you just dissociate. I know you *feel* like it's urgent" --[this is a familiar refrain with her, a special form of invalidation -- what shall we call it?]-- "but these things just change on their own and if you push yourself too hard, it won't do either of us any good."
Why couldn't she just help me through the dissociation? Isn't that her job? Why didn't she respect my claim that it was urgent, and push me to address it when I asked her to? Why didn't she aggressively deal with the transference? And then, on top of that, how dare she be so insensitive and aggressive with me when I'm a puddle of depression, just looking for a little compassion, and not respect my claim that her tough love stance is unhelpful? She makes no sense to me. I feel so victimized by her whims.
That's only the beginning. I also feel terribly abandoned by her. She used to care about me and now she doesn't. I just know it. Now, this would be great fodder for therapy if only it were not true. We could work through whatever abandonment issues I have (who doesn't have abandonment issues, right?) and I would come out the other side, a better, stronger person. But if she truly has emotionally abandoned me (i.e., stopped caring), how on EARTH is SHE going to help me through that? How on earth could I trust her with such vulnerability? No way. That wouldn't work.
Next to this seething pile of anger, I still see her face in my mind's eye and think she's the most beautiful woman on earth, and that being in her arms would be pure heaven. I would trade my right arm for an afternoon there. I'm convinced I can never love another. I ache with jealousy at the thought of her family who gets to hold her and touch her and spend Sunday afternoons with her. The whole thing rips me apart.
So, the huge question weighing on my mind is, what the f. do I do next? I'm afraid to ever see her again. I might crumble. She always talks me out of things. She's an expert manipulator, truly brilliant. And I'm an easy target. One look at those watery blue eyes....
And I'm very vulnerable right now: breaking up with boyfriend, cat just died (is that really true? oh, no, i can't bear it).
I'm thinking of just breaking up with her in an email or phone call. That might be the best way. My ex-boyfriend thinks I need to stall for time, cancel my next few appointments while I build up my determination to fire her and figure out exactly what it is I need to say.
I have had eight long-term therapists since I was 14, and I have to say, never has one of my therapeutic relationships ended badly. But I just cannot see how this one could end well. This woman is truly messed up. Or, our relationship is. I don't know what happened. I wish I could gain some understanding. I wish we could just sit down and she could explain it all to me, why this all happened. I'm completely dumbfounded.
That was a lot to write. I'm sure I'll have more. I really hope you all have some good advice for me, because I'm terrified. My next appointment with her is on Tuesday evening, in three days.
crushedout (but still fighting)
Posted by annierose on October 31, 2004, at 6:36:36
In reply to How to fire my T -- please help me brainstorm, posted by crushedout on October 31, 2004, at 1:15:22
Not to borrow from a song, but ... breaking up is hard to do. It's a difficult decision. And I think you need to tell her what you just wrote in your post. It would be a good starting point. You don't have to quit in one session. Maybe you could "break up" over the new few weeks? Especially since this is a difficult time both IRL and in therapy, maybe her support would be of some help. But if things are that terrible in therapy, you could always cancel your next session via the telephone and sit with that feeling for a week. I did quit cold turkey years ago. It was not easy (after 5 years w/T). I wish I would have given myself the gift of time. Good Luck. Trust your gut.
Posted by fallsfall on October 31, 2004, at 10:35:40
In reply to How to fire my T -- please help me brainstorm, posted by crushedout on October 31, 2004, at 1:15:22
Hi Crushed.
You said: "I've never felt more sure that it was the right thing to do."
Repeat this 10 times, three times a day. "Make" something with these words on it - a painting or something you make on the computer or go buy a block lettering stencil and then color in the letters or form the letters out of clay or make a necklace with the saying in the beads. The point is to spend a couple of hours getting used to this idea, feeling comfortable with it, even making it more "public" (though you don't have to show it to anyone). Invest some time into solidifying this idea.
One of the best things I did when I switched therapists was to have my new therapist lined up before I fired my old one. Have you talked to any therapists who you would consider switching to? Can your ex-boyfriend give you a referral (or connect you with on of his collegues who *could* give you a referral)? I strongly suggest that you don't have a blowup with her without having a place to go to process this. This may mean that you need to cancel a few sessions with her until you have a replacement lined up.
She has shown in the past that she will not be supportive of you looking for a new therapist (and that, in itself, is a warning sign). You have tried to get her agreement many times [how many?] in the past, and she does "talk you out of it". Yet you keep coming back to the same place. And your (knowlegable) ex-boyfriend recommends strongly that you leave her. I don't think that you can even hope that she will help you with this transition. It is something that you will need to do in spite of her.
I believe strongly in working things out with one's therapist - in having that last session to wrap things up, etc. Yet, I *DIDN"T* do this with my old therapist. I fired her by leaving a message on her voice mail. I agonized about whether I should go back for one more session (and I still think about it sometimes... more than a year later). But, Crushed - you HAVE tried to work this out with her. You have been amazing in your tenacity. You don't "owe" her anything - you need to do what is right for you.
Let me know how I can help (Did I send you my notes on the various therapists I interviewed when I was switching?).
Falls.
Posted by crushedout on October 31, 2004, at 11:08:00
In reply to Re: How to fire my T -- please help me brainstorm » crushedout, posted by fallsfall on October 31, 2004, at 10:35:40
Thanks to both of you, falls and Annie, for your posts and wise advice. I think you both make excellent points.Everything's constantly changing. It's like a freakin' roller coaster ride and I can't get off the dang thing. This morning when I checked my email, I found a kind message from my T. I had emailed her on Friday right after putting my kitty to sleep and then again on Saturday, apologizing for having been so melodramatic on Friday. As the days went by and I didn't hear back from her, I think I was growing increasingly angry at her because I was assuming she had gotten my emails but just didn't care enough to write back. That, on top of everything else, inspired the rage I was in last night when I wrote that post.
So, when I got her nice email, my anger melted away somewhat, and I felt pretty scared that I was going back to the stuck place I've been in for G*d knows how long with her. And that I was gonna let you all down, which I hate doing. But a lot of the stuff I wrote last night (all of it?) was true, and I can't just forget about it because she's good at making me feel like she cares about me and I'm a sucker for her.
Anyway, the second important development, which happened right after I got her email, was that this therapist I called last week called me and said she had a cancellation for tomorrow morning so she can see me. We have an appointment at 10:30.
I'm a little scared now. Do I tell my T? I know she will be mad. I've done this before. She will have wanted to know about it beforehand. Well, at least maybe this new T can help me figure out what to do. I wish we had more than 45 minutes to talk about this. It feels huge.
I'll keep you all posted. Thanks again for your insight.
Posted by annierose on October 31, 2004, at 11:18:38
In reply to new developments, posted by crushedout on October 31, 2004, at 11:08:00
Hi again - I'm new to this chat room so I did not know of your history with this T. I am glad that she responded to your e-mails and offered you support. Prior to my quitting with my T, I did what Fallsfall suggested, interviewing other
T's. I did it not so much as to consider them for the future, but as a 2nd, 3rd, 4th (?) opinion. I'm glad you have your appointment with someone else tomorrow. I don't think you need to tell your current T before this appointment. This is solely your journey and your decision. And your current T should be supporting you. My T did support my decision to seek other opinions, even those that differed with hers. Again, good luck.
Posted by Aphrodite on October 31, 2004, at 12:13:26
In reply to new developments, posted by crushedout on October 31, 2004, at 11:08:00
Be wise to the pattern from before. Your first post mentioned what a great manipulator you think she is. I think Falls is absolutely right that you should have another person lined up before you terminate. You will have a lot of healing to do. Hope you can get off the roller-coaster soon.
Posted by gardenergirl on October 31, 2004, at 14:39:41
In reply to Re: new developments » crushedout, posted by Aphrodite on October 31, 2004, at 12:13:26
Hi crushed,
I'm so glad that new T called and that you made an appointment. Talk about timing! I agree with the others that having someone lined up ahead of time likely will be better in the long run. Your goal is taking care of you. Perhaps it feels like "cheating on" your T? It's not! Your goal is taking care of you. As hard as it might be, really try to separate feelings for your T, your understanding of her feelings, and your anxiety (perhaps) about change from your ultimate goal...wellness. Keep your focus there, and how sure you felt last night. I'm sure it was nice to get the email from your T, but will that really change how things go in therapy with her?I'm so proud of you for taking steps for YOU! And at such a difficult time. Crushed, I think you have hidden strength that is coming out now when you need it.
Good luck tomorrow and please remember we are here for you and with you in spirit.
(((((crushedout))))
gg
Posted by Rigby on October 31, 2004, at 15:36:05
In reply to new developments, posted by crushedout on October 31, 2004, at 11:08:00
Hi Crushed,
It seems like, from what you've written (both good and bad about your therapist) you are suffering with some very painful feelings of transference. I think this therapist has been meaningful enough, clearly, for her to trigger these emotions. But she may possibly not be good enough to help you through. One could argue that most of the work done in therapy is done by the client (she probably thinks this) and that transference can't be brute forced but, still, after x number of years of feeling like crap over this woman I think you need to save yourself. So, yeah, definitely get a second opinion. I'd try anything and see what feels right and good. You're sick and tired of feeling sick and tired. And yes, there's a lot going on with you but what's remained consistent is this emotionally painful situation with your therapist. To try and get another opinion and to get help with your pain is not wrong. If you think of it in medical terms it'll maybe seem clearer.
As far as telling your therapist or not, if you were sick and one doc wasn't helping would you feel obliged to tell him or her that you were trying something else? I know it's not apples to apples but I guess it's important for all of us to demystify this supposed power a therapist has over us. They're professionals designed to help navigate us through a variety of personal issues. It's hard I think for anyone intensely involved in therapy to think about this is such detached terms but if you can find a moment in your brain or heart even to get clinical about it it may help. **Much** easier said than done, especially if your therapist screwed up their boundaries.
Anyway, there's no right or wrong. Keep writing--we'll support you either way, old T-rex or new. ;)
> Thanks to both of you, falls and Annie, for your posts and wise advice. I think you both make excellent points.
>
> Everything's constantly changing. It's like a freakin' roller coaster ride and I can't get off the dang thing. This morning when I checked my email, I found a kind message from my T. I had emailed her on Friday right after putting my kitty to sleep and then again on Saturday, apologizing for having been so melodramatic on Friday. As the days went by and I didn't hear back from her, I think I was growing increasingly angry at her because I was assuming she had gotten my emails but just didn't care enough to write back. That, on top of everything else, inspired the rage I was in last night when I wrote that post.
>
> So, when I got her nice email, my anger melted away somewhat, and I felt pretty scared that I was going back to the stuck place I've been in for G*d knows how long with her. And that I was gonna let you all down, which I hate doing. But a lot of the stuff I wrote last night (all of it?) was true, and I can't just forget about it because she's good at making me feel like she cares about me and I'm a sucker for her.
>
> Anyway, the second important development, which happened right after I got her email, was that this therapist I called last week called me and said she had a cancellation for tomorrow morning so she can see me. We have an appointment at 10:30.
>
> I'm a little scared now. Do I tell my T? I know she will be mad. I've done this before. She will have wanted to know about it beforehand. Well, at least maybe this new T can help me figure out what to do. I wish we had more than 45 minutes to talk about this. It feels huge.
>
> I'll keep you all posted. Thanks again for your insight.
Posted by sunny10 on November 1, 2004, at 13:53:42
In reply to Perfect Timing » crushedout, posted by Rigby on October 31, 2004, at 15:36:05
I agree with the others.
Transference, connections, any feelings that you are friends; thus letting yourself feel guilty about leaving her, are ALL beside the point.
We are PAYING these people to counsel us; they are not our friends. We are not responsible for their feelings; we ARE PAYING them to be responsible for ours, and for teaching us how to grow emotionally stronger so that we don't NEED anyone to be responsible for our feelings other than ourselves.
If you feel that she is not teaching you to grow, then you need to be paying someone who does.
I do believe, along with everyone here, that you should have another T lined up before "quitting"- which, by the way, I think you might want to try calling "firing her"- try making the feeling one of empowerment for you, not failure.
It has helped me to "fire" my last T.
My current T is trying to teach me to be "safe" within myself, with no one as a crutch- but with a caveat; everyone needs a support network if only to bounce ideas off of when you can't seem to find that "safe" place within yourself.
You notice I said she's TRYING to teach me- whether I can actually learn/believe it is still to be discovered...
Chin up, we're here to bounce your ideas off!
-sunny10
Posted by fallsfall on November 1, 2004, at 14:38:21
In reply to new developments, posted by crushedout on October 31, 2004, at 11:08:00
Posted by crushedout on November 1, 2004, at 23:22:30
In reply to How was your appointment? (nm) » crushedout, posted by fallsfall on November 1, 2004, at 14:38:21
It went ok. It felt like nowhere near enough time and I was scattered and disjointed. But we have another appointment next Monday. And -- here's the biggest news -- I told my usual T that I have to take a two-week break. I cancelled our sessions for the next two weeks, told her it was a difficult decision, and that I would let her know if I ended up needing a longer break. I told her she didn't need to call me back unless she had a problem with that she needed to discuss.I just felt like I needed distance from her to effectively sort out my feelings about her and figure out what I need to do.
I'm thinking of writing her a letter explaining this to her (I didn't explain any of *why* I needed a break -- only that I needed one and that it was difficult). Do you think it's a good idea? Or should I just let her wonder. I guess, once again, I'm worrying too much about her feelings, and I should just be taking care of myself. Interesting to note, anyway.
I'll write more soon if I can.
Posted by annierose on November 2, 2004, at 5:01:37
In reply to Re: How was your appointment?, posted by crushedout on November 1, 2004, at 23:22:30
Quickly, I'm glad things went okay with T2. I think it's understandable that it was scattered.
You had a lot of information to discuss in a limited time frame. Happy you'll be seeing her next week.
To answer your question, I don't think you should write T1 a letter. Give yourself the 2 weeks to try and sort out your feelings. And more time if necessary. This is all about you right now. And always should be. Good Luck, time to vote and work the polls!!
Posted by fallsfall on November 2, 2004, at 6:24:08
In reply to Re: How was your appointment?, posted by crushedout on November 1, 2004, at 23:22:30
Excellent.
I agree with AnnieRose, you don't need to send a letter. You don't need to justify yourself. You have said that you need a break. That is sufficient. You can talk to the new therapist about how to handle this with her.
I'm really glad that you have achieved some distance.
Do you like this new therapist? Is it someone you would see yourself sticking with? You can interview a couple of therapists if you aren't completely sold on this one - or if you need to see "what's out there" so you can feel more confident with your choice if you switch.
Good for you!
Posted by annierose on November 2, 2004, at 8:40:08
In reply to Re: How was your appointment?, posted by crushedout on November 1, 2004, at 23:22:30
One more thought ... sending a letter is sort of like you are asking permission if this is alright.
It is alright. This is your journey. It is hard to leave a T. Been there. But I think you are on the right path.
Posted by crushedout on November 2, 2004, at 21:13:04
In reply to Re: How was your appointment? » crushedout, posted by fallsfall on November 2, 2004, at 6:24:08
No, I can't see myself having the consultant as my T, but I knew that she wouldn't be my T going in, since she's very inconveniently located for me and too expensive. I don't want to interview therapists! I don't have the money or the strength or the time or the energy. I don't want to.
Man, all of a sudden I'm really mad I'm doing this. This is a total waste of time. I'm just going to go back to her and we're going to have to repair all this damage I'm doing.
Posted by annierose on November 2, 2004, at 21:29:38
In reply to Re: How was your appointment? » fallsfall, posted by crushedout on November 2, 2004, at 21:13:04
I don't think you are doing any damage. You are just seeking more information. And knowledge is always a good thing (unless you are George Bush).
Sorry if I offended you or anyone else ... it's election night and I couldn't help myself. Any T worth their salt should support your explorations.
Insight is good. It sounds like you are ready to go back with your T. Then you need to let her know what led you down this other path. Something is missing.
Posted by crushedout on November 2, 2004, at 21:33:39
In reply to Re: How was your appointment?, posted by annierose on November 2, 2004, at 21:29:38
Sorry, no, I'm not at all ready to go back. I was just panicking and venting. I really don't want to shop for another T. I may well end up deciding not to have a T at all. I dunno. But I think exploring leaving my T (and how best to do that, if I decide to) is almost surely worthwhile.
Posted by fallsfall on November 2, 2004, at 21:56:51
In reply to Re: How was your appointment? » fallsfall, posted by crushedout on November 2, 2004, at 21:13:04
Shopping for a therapist is incredibly hard. But it is REALLY worth it.
I will be happy to share my experiences with you, and let you know what helped me and what didn't help.
Don't give up and go back to her yet. You need to explore what it would mean to leave her. Stay the course for at least a little longer!
Posted by crushedout on November 2, 2004, at 21:58:30
In reply to Re: How was your appointment? » crushedout, posted by fallsfall on November 2, 2004, at 21:56:51
you had to pay to see each t, right? i hate that. yes, i will probably like to hear about your experiences. thanks, falls. :( (feeling frustrated and gloomy, but staying the course)
Posted by annierose on November 2, 2004, at 22:34:09
In reply to Re: How was your appointment?, posted by crushedout on November 2, 2004, at 21:58:30
Glad to hear you are "staying the course" ... it will be worth it! FYI ... I got, I think, 3 consultations when I was going through this process. Not sure what I was looking for, but in the end, I figured, if I'm this uncertain, I had to leave. No T said, "this is 100% sure what you need to do." I don't think you'll get that response. But I did get asked some questions that had me think. And I believe (this was 15+ years ago) it took close to a year to finally quit.
Posted by fallsfall on November 3, 2004, at 8:52:24
In reply to Re: How was your appointment?, posted by crushedout on November 2, 2004, at 21:58:30
Yes, I had to pay (though I have heard that some therapists do provide free interviews (perhaps something less than 45 minutes, though). My insurance payed for them. I'm not sure exactly how this works if you have a limit to the number of sessions that will be paid (Since I have a biological diagnosis - Major Depression - my insurance had to pay for whatever sessions were "medically necessary".) Somewhere in the back of my mind something is saying that somebody (I don't know who) said that some insurance (mine?) would pay for 4 - 6 interviews - or would authorize sessions more frequently for the interview process?? This "memory" is fairly fuzzy.
In any event, you should be able to do a reasonable phone interview (10 minutes?) before scheduling an appointment (you don't want to see a therapist who won't allow a reasonable phone interview). And if you can get recommendations from people you trust, your chances of finding good people to interview goes way up.
Let me know when/if you want details about my search and my decision process.
Falls.
Posted by Rigby on November 3, 2004, at 12:25:38
In reply to Re: How was your appointment?, posted by crushedout on November 1, 2004, at 23:22:30
Hi Crushed,
How are you doing? This all sounds like progress, although painful, for sure.
I think it took a lot of courage to take the break. And to ask that she not contact you. I hope that you are having some glimmers of feeling differently--perhaps stronger, perhaps more clear headed admist what probably feels like a lot of loss and pain.
Keep us posted, okay?
> It went ok. It felt like nowhere near enough time and I was scattered and disjointed. But we have another appointment next Monday. And -- here's the biggest news -- I told my usual T that I have to take a two-week break. I cancelled our sessions for the next two weeks, told her it was a difficult decision, and that I would let her know if I ended up needing a longer break. I told her she didn't need to call me back unless she had a problem with that she needed to discuss.
>
> I just felt like I needed distance from her to effectively sort out my feelings about her and figure out what I need to do.
>
> I'm thinking of writing her a letter explaining this to her (I didn't explain any of *why* I needed a break -- only that I needed one and that it was difficult). Do you think it's a good idea? Or should I just let her wonder. I guess, once again, I'm worrying too much about her feelings, and I should just be taking care of myself. Interesting to note, anyway.
>
> I'll write more soon if I can.
Posted by crushedout on November 3, 2004, at 20:53:48
In reply to Re: How was your appointment? » crushedout, posted by Rigby on November 3, 2004, at 12:25:38
Hey Rigby. It's been such a rough couple weeks: my parents left the country, I broke up with my boyfriend (and we're not getting along) (which is all good but still just a big change since I'm back to being alone all the time), my cat died, I took the break from my T, and then Bush was re-elected. It's enough to make me want to cash in my chips. But I keep thinking about this Bob Dylan lyric: "When you got nothing, you got nothing to lose." In other words, there's freedom in all this loss and misery. I'm trying to look on the bright side, can you tell? I know, I could use help in this department. Not my strong suit.But you weren't asking in general. Yes, about the T, I feel good in a way. Yeah, stronger, assertive. I'm taking charge of the situation, not just being a victim. Telling her the way I did -- and asking her not to contact me -- was assertive and, for once, it did not feel passive aggressive. I was *not* doing it to hurt her, or to get a reaction out of her. I was just doing it to take care of myself, which is of course, the best reason to do it. And I'm resisting the urge to now try to take care of her (by writing her a letter or whatever).
So, yeah, it's painful. I think about her a lot. I miss her a lot. I still want what I've wanted with her for a long time, very badly. But I feel ready to move on in a way. Tired of the torture, even though I can't imagine what will replace it.
I'll definitely try to keep you guys posted. Thanks for asking.
> Hi Crushed,
>
> How are you doing? This all sounds like progress, although painful, for sure.
>
> I think it took a lot of courage to take the break. And to ask that she not contact you. I hope that you are having some glimmers of feeling differently--perhaps stronger, perhaps more clear headed admist what probably feels like a lot of loss and pain.
>
> Keep us posted, okay?
>
>
> > It went ok. It felt like nowhere near enough time and I was scattered and disjointed. But we have another appointment next Monday. And -- here's the biggest news -- I told my usual T that I have to take a two-week break. I cancelled our sessions for the next two weeks, told her it was a difficult decision, and that I would let her know if I ended up needing a longer break. I told her she didn't need to call me back unless she had a problem with that she needed to discuss.
> >
> > I just felt like I needed distance from her to effectively sort out my feelings about her and figure out what I need to do.
> >
> > I'm thinking of writing her a letter explaining this to her (I didn't explain any of *why* I needed a break -- only that I needed one and that it was difficult). Do you think it's a good idea? Or should I just let her wonder. I guess, once again, I'm worrying too much about her feelings, and I should just be taking care of myself. Interesting to note, anyway.
> >
> > I'll write more soon if I can.
>
>
Posted by crushedout on November 3, 2004, at 21:01:43
In reply to Re: How was your appointment? » crushedout, posted by fallsfall on November 3, 2004, at 8:52:24
Hey falls,Thanks. My insurance will cover it, but only 80%, which is okay, I guess.
Anyway, I totally appreciate you sharing your experience with me. I'll definitely have more questions for you soon.
Posted by annierose on November 3, 2004, at 22:10:59
In reply to Re: How was your appointment? » fallsfall, posted by crushedout on November 3, 2004, at 21:01:43
Crushedout - You really have taken on a lot!
I was going through a painful ordeal this summer and a friend offered this advice: When you are going through hell, keep on going.
I hope your 2nd consultation with T2 gives you some more answers. And 80% is pretty good. My current insurance only pays approx 40%.
And I agree. This election is something to depress most (48.5%) people!! I just don't get it.
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