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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 37 to 61 of 63. Go back in thread:
Posted by Susan47 on September 16, 2004, at 8:59:11
In reply to Re: Can't believe my T cancelled today! » Passerby, posted by TofuEmmy on September 16, 2004, at 8:47:15
Posted by Passerby on September 16, 2004, at 9:54:53
In reply to Re: Can't believe my T cancelled today! ? Passerby, posted by TofuEmmy on September 16, 2004, at 8:47:15
Yes, venting is good. But I think the original person who posted and the on going "babble" went way beyond venting. I tried to offer another perspective that might help. Venting helps but so does constructive thought.
Posted by Susan47 on September 16, 2004, at 10:09:29
In reply to Re: Can't believe my T cancelled today!, posted by Passerby on September 16, 2004, at 9:54:53
Absolutely.
Posted by DaisyM on September 16, 2004, at 10:15:30
In reply to Re: Can't believe my T cancelled today!, posted by Passerby on September 16, 2004, at 9:54:53
I didn't see anywhere in the babble that anyone wasn't allowing the therapist to be human. Mostly it was support about how horrible it feels to want or need your sessions and not get them. An honest expression of those kinds of feelings can't typically be done in most environments. OF COURSE, we know he is allowed to be sick. And, OF COURSE, in a "normal" conversation we would be so grown up and understanding..."no problem, just take care of yourself and I'll see you when you feel better." But the whole idea of posting here is to say what can't usually be said...and to get support and understanding for those feelings.
If there is one thing I've learned, feelings for your therapist are not rational and though we can maintain an outward persona of polite, grown-up understanding of the boundaries and limitations, sometimes, secretly, all we really want is what we really want, without having to be fair or balanced.
*sigh* It would be easier if rational perspective worked.
Posted by gardenergirl on September 16, 2004, at 11:26:33
In reply to Re: Can't believe my T cancelled today!, posted by Passerby on September 16, 2004, at 9:54:53
Um, I wasn't aware that the two were mutually exclusive.
Thanks for your input.
gg
Posted by Dinah on September 17, 2004, at 11:08:46
In reply to Re: Can't believe my T cancelled today!, posted by Passerby on September 16, 2004, at 9:54:53
Chuckle. Gardenergirl has never struck me as someone who has trouble with constructive thought. Perhaps you misunderstood the tone of the thread.
I think Daisy had it right. Here we often allow ourselves to say what's in our secret heart of hearts. The things we know are illogical. Things that if we said them at all to our therapists (amid copious expressions of sympathy for their illnesses) would be accepted by our therapists as exactly what they are, and no more. Grist for the therapy mill. An admission of the importance of our therapists.
Besides, in any situation, therapy or otherwise, down below all the expressed compassion and hands extended to others, there is a tiny bit of the wee child whose first thought is "Yes, but how does this affect *meeee*." Nothing wrong with that as long as we act appropriately. Which I'm sure Gardenergirl did. You can see in her thread that she continued to do all she needed to do in a completely appropriate manner.
But it's still ok to feel upset.
Posted by 10derHeart on September 17, 2004, at 18:19:39
In reply to Re: Can't believe my T cancelled today!, posted by DaisyM on September 16, 2004, at 10:15:30
Oh my goodness, Daisy, NO ONE could have said any of this any better. It's as if you lifted my own precise thoughts/feelings about our need for our Ts right out of my head and heart, made them articulate and flowing,then posted them here. Wow! Thank you on behalf of gg (hope that's ok, gg), myself and many more, I'm sure. You continue to amaze, comfort and support so many with your insight. (in awe of Miss DaisyM...10derHeart)
Posted by 10derHeart on September 17, 2004, at 18:35:57
In reply to Re: Can't believe my T cancelled today! » Passerby, posted by Dinah on September 17, 2004, at 11:08:46
....in awe of you, also. Should have read all the posts first (she said sheepishly)...the combination of yours and Daisy's...perfect! I don't even have a T. right now and you brought tears to my eyes (in a bittersweet way) remembering how it felt and what I thought when ex-T. (78-days-post-termination I'm doing *fair*....oh,except for the fact I miss him every minute..) suddenly canx. all his appts. last spring for "a health reason". Arghh!! Thought I would die. All I could do was pray for 16 days. Maybe I'll tell whole story sometime - it still upsets me. You feel torn between the shock of loss of sessions and the intense caring you have for them personally...a muddled mess of emotions, as I recall....
Posted by Passerby on September 17, 2004, at 19:02:21
In reply to Re: Can't believe my T cancelled today! ? Passerby, posted by Dinah on September 17, 2004, at 11:08:46
> Being a newcomer, my mistake was thinking people (a) might actually say what they really mean and (b) want to use this as a real support network in enhancing what they get from therapy so they can get better. Instead, it clearly has a different purpose as you point out. How "constructive" that is for anyone at anytime, is something I am unsure of. Maybe that is what she really needs to think about.
Chuckle. Gardenergirl has never struck me as someone who has trouble with constructive thought. Perhaps you misunderstood the tone of the thread.
>
> I think Daisy had it right. Here we often allow ourselves to say what's in our secret heart of hearts. The things we know are illogical. Things that if we said them at all to our therapists (amid copious expressions of sympathy for their illnesses) would be accepted by our therapists as exactly what they are, and no more. Grist for the therapy mill. An admission of the importance of our therapists.
>
> Besides, in any situation, therapy or otherwise, down below all the expressed compassion and hands extended to others, there is a tiny bit of the wee child whose first thought is "Yes, but how does this affect *meeee*." Nothing wrong with that as long as we act appropriately. Which I'm sure Gardenergirl did. You can see in her thread that she continued to do all she needed to do in a completely appropriate manner.
>
> But it's still ok to feel upset.
Posted by Dinah on September 17, 2004, at 19:25:31
In reply to Re: Can't believe my T cancelled today!, posted by Passerby on September 17, 2004, at 19:02:21
Or that it doesn't function that way? I've found it a very helpful enhancement to therapy and often bring posts or ideas from here to there.
Just because we also use it to express things that aren't widely accepted doesn't mean that we don't do things like help each other with issues of trust and termination, helpful adjunct therapies, normalizing feelings for our therapists, making open some secrets we might not be willing to share with our therapists until we realize we aren't some sort of freaks, finding therapists, leaving therapists (as is unfortunately sometimes necessary), and a host of other things.
How does expressing disappointment over a therapist's illness contradict any positive values in this board?
I'll be totally honest with you here. Sometimes just reading what I write at times makes me realize that I'm overreacting, and helps me correct my thinking. Not to mention the many helpful posters who will nudge me in a supportive manner.
So what issue are you dealing with? What sort of enhancement to therapy are you interested in finding here?
I realize it's hard to be a newcomer anywhere. People already know each other and once you know someone, it's easier to judge the tone of their post. I have many friends here who can generally tell if I'm kidding, teasing, indulging in hyperbole, being dead serious, am on the verge of meltdown, etc. But you don't have to be a newcomer or passerby for long. If you start to post and let people get to know you, soon you too will have a place where everybody knows your name and cares about what happens to you.
Posted by Dinah on September 17, 2004, at 19:37:11
In reply to Okay, Dinah... » Dinah, posted by 10derHeart on September 17, 2004, at 18:35:57
If you ever feel like sharing it, please do. I can't imagine... I suppose one day I may well though, in a long term therapy.
So do you feel you were ready for termination? Over two months. Do you think of him often?
Posted by daisym on September 17, 2004, at 20:33:06
In reply to Re: Can't believe my T cancelled today! » DaisyM, posted by 10derHeart on September 17, 2004, at 18:19:39
Thank you for your kind words. It is nice that I was able to validate what you (and many us) really feel. It's tricky, isn't it?
Posted by daisym on September 17, 2004, at 20:56:37
In reply to Re: Can't believe my T cancelled today!, posted by Passerby on September 17, 2004, at 19:02:21
Ouch, Passerby, I feel like we hit a nerve somehow.
I want to try to present what I feel about babble in a totally non-defensive way, if possible. I wrote a post a while ago (it's been months) that was essentially a letter to a therapist explaining why anyone would find a board like this useful. But I can't find it so I'll try again here.
Things you need to know about me that might be relevant: I'm a little over 40, married, have three teenagers, one who is in college and live in the suburbs. I run a nonprofit for disabled children. I'm what they call "high functioning" even with depression and PTSD. I run all over the state training groups of people and speaking at conventions, etc. I consider myself smart, logical, organized and a complete realist. (OK, so I'm a Pollyanna about the little kids of the world, but still.)
So, to find myself in therapy 16 months ago because I was seriously suicidal was shocking. Oh, I guess I forgot to mention that my husband is pretty seriously ill. His illness, combined with running a company and being super-mom just wiped me out. Therapy was a huge challenge for me because I have always been a "stand on your own two feet" kind of gal. It was such a problem that I started searching for information about the "right" way to "do" therapy. I wanted to make sure I knew everything so my therapist didn't pull anything on me I wasn't ready for. I researched everything I could. The one thing I couldn't find in my research was anyone talking about the intensity of feelings for your therapist. And I thought I was just nuts...especially after I started talking about my childhood and all these different ages were popping up with memories. And then I found Babble.Without being able to express what I was confused about here, as honestly as I dare, I think I would have quit therapy. Because I finally found a group of people here who said, "Yup, feeling like that is normal. Here is how I handled it."
I wish more people had this level of honest support. We all swing back and forth between trying to honestly sort stuff out and get answers to just needed to vent and get support. Sometimes it works better than other times. Sometimes it has even been hostile. But for the most part, if you don't agree with someone or you don't have anything to add, you just don't respond to the post. We aren't trying to fix each other. And sometimes we offer reality checks in a supportive way.
I hope you can find something you can relate to here. There are often threads about articles or philosophies or practical applications of certain techniques. Maybe these will appeal to you. I agree with Dinah though, if you share a little about yourself and/or ask questions you would like answered, you will get so much out of this board. I'm continually impressed with the brain power here. Not to mention the compassion.
It is always nice to have new voices. I hope you feel welcome and not like a newbie for very long.
Posted by Passerby on September 17, 2004, at 22:05:30
In reply to Opinions and support ? Passerby, posted by daisym on September 17, 2004, at 20:56:37
No, you did not hit a nerve. While I appreciate your openness, talking about my background and how I wound up in therapy is not the point (at least it is not why I responded initially). I simply tried to offer a viewpoint that was not being discussed. What I mean is that I thought it was worthwhile to simply remind gg that her therapist is human. It seemed to me she was almost giving her therapist "superhuman qualities", thus intensifying her feelings of transference, not reducing them (which, silly me, I thought that was the point). Or put more plainly, I guess in some ways, the responders were helping her make mountains out of molehills. And, in my world (which if you want some sharing about me, is also a very highly functioning) of finance - mergers and acquisitions and investments, to be specific - is not something that is valued. The idea is to make things simpler not more complicated.
I do not undermine the value of a message board like this but I do think that for the topic of transference, the constant talking about it, public worrying about it, and perhaps even sympathizing about it may, in fact, make it worse. THAT IS THE REALITY CHECK I WAS OFFERING. It might not feel quite as supportive. But it also attempts to help people see things from a different perspective, which can be just as useful.
However, for the sake of those who appreciate what is here, I think I will keep passing by. But, I will make one last observation. Considering the number of posts I got, I actually think I might of hit a nerve or two. Perhaps some people realize that somewhat minor issues, like one or two cancellations, are being debated as if they were issues of world peace. And maybe, just maybe, that does not quite make sense to them, when viewed from a different perspective.
Garden Girl - Good luck and I hope you find peace with your therapist.
Posted by TofuEmmy on September 17, 2004, at 22:45:33
In reply to Can't believe my T cancelled today!, posted by gardenergirl on September 8, 2004, at 12:07:05
Posted by DaisyM on September 17, 2004, at 23:15:03
In reply to Re: Opinions and support, posted by Passerby on September 17, 2004, at 22:05:30
Your point of about "hitting a nerve" is well taken. I will absolutely agree. We had a very(very!) bad experience with a poster here who slammed pretty much everything everyone posted. Speaking for myself, I still circle the wagons too quickly to protect my friends.
Stop back occasionally. You might find something you like.
Posted by Susan47 on September 17, 2004, at 23:16:52
In reply to Re: Opinions and support, posted by Passerby on September 17, 2004, at 22:05:30
Posted by gardenergirl on September 17, 2004, at 23:20:03
In reply to Opinions and support » Passerby, posted by daisym on September 17, 2004, at 20:56:37
Daisy,
Is this the letter you were referring to? I recall at the time asking your permission to share this with my classmates. I saved it because it expresses things I don't ever want to forget about the therapy experience. I hope it's okay to post this for you.Posted by DaisyM on January 14, 2004, at 14:27:11
In reply to Ranting and Ranting and Ranting, Oh My!, posted by fallsfall on January 14, 2004, at 11:05:49
Fallsfall -- I've written your therapist a letter. This strikes a huge nerve with me...
Dear Mr. Fallsfall's Therapist:
I'd like to try to explain why therapy clients need support for therapy, above and beyond the issues they are dealing with in their therapy.
1) The process is confusing and socially very different than anything else most of us have ever been exposed to. And there is very little instruction as to how to "conduct" yourself, other than you can say anything you want here. But, I'm not going to tell you I have a hangnail, or that I need new shoes, etc. because that is not what we are working together. It helps to talk to others who are going to therapy because you can say things like, "isn't it hard to get started?" etc. Or, what do you do when...? It is gathering information about the process, not the issues. Many of us read tons so that we can "do it right." Or figure out if you are doing it right. After all, you trained for years on how to do this, we didn't. Do we feel vulnerable? You bet. When you find a group that can offer advice, experience and support, you consider yourself lucky.
2) Emotionally it is about the hardest thing I've ever done. Think about it from "our" side -- we come in, let you rip off those protective scabs and expose wounds that run very deep...sometimes deep into places we don't even know have been effected. Then, when time is up, you don't stitch us back up, you just tell us to try not to bleed to death before the next session. Our friends supply the salve, bandaids, chocolate and whatever else we might need to patch and repair. This IS part of healing. Again, it is about the process most of the time, how painful it is, etc. It isn't that help is necessarily needed on an issue, though we might need validation on those too. After all we can't/shouldn't call you everyday to say, "I feel sad/lonely/depressed" Besides, sometimes we want to hear, "I'm sorry. It will get better. I'm thinking about you." Not, "WHY do you think you are sad, ect.?"
3) It takes courage to be honest with you and sorting out stuff with friends first can often create some strength to bring up scary issues. Again, maybe it isn't sharing the specific issue with friends but telling them you have one that is hard to talk about and hearing them say, "just tell him. That is why you are seeing him!" Babble is so great for that and for normalizing this process.
4)If an issues is big enough to have created the need for therapy, is it really realistic to think that it only needs attention 100 minutes a week? Most therapy clients know that they actually need to work on their "stuff" outside of sessions. Most do their processing with others. This is so much healthier than keeping it all locked inside. People who have noone hurt themselves, or worse.
5) I agree that having "healthy" friends to support you is ideal. But, most of them have not had therapy experiences so can't relate. Or they want to solve your problems, not listen. Or they want you to be OK so badly that you quickly realize you need to talk to people who think therapy is OK. It has been my experience that people are supportive but they really don't know what to say, nor do I want to share with those who haven't been there.
6) Finally, it sounds like you have a concern about therapy "being" life, being THE important element of existance, instead of using therapy to better live your life. I agree that many of us get caught up in this process, and for the time being, it does become central to our days or weeks. However, I must argue that ideally as we feel stronger and better able to cope with life, therapy will become "just" a tool for living and for changing into who we want to be. When therapy is terminated, and I assume it is your expectation that it will indeed end, who would you expect will offer support, etc.? I submit that Babble, and other groups like it, enhance the theraputic process for clients and you should be *glad* we have them.
Respectfully submitted,
Daisy
Posted by Susan47 on September 17, 2004, at 23:37:49
In reply to Is this the letter? I saved it. » daisym, posted by gardenergirl on September 17, 2004, at 23:20:03
Thank you for finding that gg, I don't know if it's the one she's referring to (I guess she'll let us know) but it speaks for me.
Posted by gardenergirl on September 17, 2004, at 23:51:18
In reply to Re: Opinions and support, posted by Passerby on September 17, 2004, at 22:05:30
Passerby,
I appreciate your addressing at least part of your post directly to me, as I am the "original poster" you have been talking about. I guess I thank you for your concern about my well-being as I'm sure it comes from a warm place in your heart. ;) But I have to admit that I was jarred by your post in that a seemingly perfect stranger appeared to be commenting on my truth. But nevertheless, that is the situation we find ourselves in, and it is unfortunately not an unfamiliar one. Perhaps it is also familiar to you?> I simply tried to offer a viewpoint that was not being discussed.
To clarify your statement, what you offered was not being discussed IN THIS THREAD. That certainly does not mean that the topic has never been discussed on Babble, IRL, or even thought about before. My original post was clearly a venting of my frustration at wanting to continue the momentum of my therapy and encountering an obstacle which I COULD interpret as personal. As others such as Daisy and Dinah have expressed so eloquently, what I was doing was voicing what IS a part of my authentic true self, even though it may appear regressive or too primitive for the comfort of certain others to hear. Thus, I saved expressing my frustration for this safe place.
>What I mean is that I thought it was worthwhile to simply remind gg that her therapist is human. It seemed to me she was almost giving her therapist "superhuman qualities", thus intensifying her feelings of transference, not reducing them (which, silly me, I thought that was the point).
I have to admit, I see no evidence of my projecting superhuman qualities on my T. He was sick, and I was upset that his illness interfered with my opportunity to continue the important work I am doing. I was responding totally from a place of my own feelings which I believe I even "owned" in the post. I certainly did not blame him for getting sick or believe that he should not. And it depends on what stage a client is in in their therapy journey whether transference feelings should be intensified. I'm also not sure that transference feelings can be "reduced" per se. I think the feelings themselves can lose their charge once worked through. But I don't think that diminshes the feelings themselves. But that is a semantic point.
>Or put more plainly, I guess in some ways, the responders were helping her make mountains out of molehills. And, in my world (which if you want some sharing about me, is also a very highly functioning) of finance - mergers and acquisitions and investments, to be specific - is not something that is valued. The idea is to make things simpler not more complicated.
In my world, one in which my special and precious trait of sensitivity is often denigrated as weak or unvalued, upsetting events ARE mountains to me that appear as molehills to others. Being highly sensitive means that I process stimuli on a deeper level than approx. 80% of the population. I view this as both a gift and a burden. The burden is the extra pain it can cause, as well as the stigma and judgement that often comes from an individualist society. So, by offering support to me, the Babblers were not enabling a dysfunction to continue, they were validating my true experience. I took their responses as they appeared to me: warm, loving, supportive, and as lighthearted or serious in tone as appropriate to the topic. Perhaps it is because I know them well and/or process their posts in my own sensitive way that I perceive them as such.
>
> I do not undermine the value of a message board like this but I do think that for the topic of transference, the constant talking about it, public worrying about it, and perhaps even sympathizing about it may, in fact, make it worse. THAT IS THE REALITY CHECK I WAS OFFERING. It might not feel quite as supportive. But it also attempts to help people see things from a different perspective, which can be just as useful.Um, here I think you might be projecting topics and contents from other threads onto mine. I may be wrong, as it's been awhile since I've read all the posts, (I guess I'm flattered that you renewed my thread) but I don't think transference was the main point of this thread.
>
> Perhaps some people realize that somewhat minor issues, like one or two cancellations, are being debated as if they were issues of world peace. And maybe, just maybe, that does not quite make sense to them, when viewed from a different perspective.I can certainly see how it may appear this way to someone unfamiliar with Babble and with my own truth. Of course you ain't seen me debate whirled peas. That's a sight to behold. You wanna see a mountain...
>
> Garden Girl - Good luck and I hope you find peace with your therapist.Thanks for your well wishes.
Regards
GardenERgirl, aka gg
>
Posted by gardenergirl on September 17, 2004, at 23:51:53
In reply to For Rent: Bridge to Sleep Under (nm) » gardenergirl, posted by TofuEmmy on September 17, 2004, at 22:45:33
I know, I know! But you so silly...
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on September 17, 2004, at 23:52:40
In reply to It's good to have heart *and* brain. (((gg))) (nm), posted by Susan47 on September 17, 2004, at 23:16:52
Posted by gardenergirl on September 17, 2004, at 23:55:45
In reply to Is this the letter? I saved it. » daisym, posted by gardenergirl on September 17, 2004, at 23:20:03
Thanks to everyone who added their thoughts to this thread. Unfortunately, it's way too late in the evening to thank everyone individually as I would like to. But I do appreciate it.
Interesting discussion, eh?
I'm glad Babble is still a caring and safe place for me to be myself. That's a healthy thing.
(((((Babblers))))))))
gg
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 18, 2004, at 1:42:52
In reply to Re: Can't believe my T cancelled today!, posted by Passerby on September 17, 2004, at 19:02:21
> my mistake was thinking people (a) might actually say what they really mean and (b) want to use this as a real support network in enhancing what they get from therapy so they can get better.
Please be sensitive to the feelings of others and don't be sarcastic or post anything that could lead them to feel accused or put down.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Dinah on September 18, 2004, at 8:54:25
In reply to Re: Opinions and support, posted by Passerby on September 17, 2004, at 22:05:30
No nerve hit here. I'm comfortable with my degree of transference and it's not at all a sore spot. But FYI, it dissipates on its own in a good therapy without anyone trying to prematurely wrestle it away. Or at least that was my experience. If my therapist resisted the transference, I clung. When he removed the resistance, I was able to move off on my own. Ditto for opposition from others.
If you hit any nerve at all it was protectiveness for a friend, and I suppose I picked up on the high functioning thing. I hope it doesn't surprise you to learn that a good many people here would fit even a very exacting definition of high functioning, particularly in externals. I also hope that it doesn't surprise you to consider that external measures of "high functioning" aren't as important to many as more indirect measures of human value.
Good luck in your journey, and I hope someday you decide to come back and set a spell.
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