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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Tancred62 on March 15, 2004, at 15:49:27
I've been thinking lately that perhaps my depression (and perhaps others')is simply a reaction to the fact that life is actually not as great or enjoyable as we want it to (or think in should) be. Perhaps I'm missing that evolutionary component of self-delusion that makes others believe in things like a soul, love, heaven, God, etc. Perhaps the only thing "wrong" with me is that I see things as they are; which is fairly depressing, if you ask me. Perhaps I should embrace my misanthropy and my nihilism.
Any thoughts?
Posted by pinkeye on March 15, 2004, at 16:42:28
In reply to Depression as response to reality, posted by Tancred62 on March 15, 2004, at 15:49:27
Maybe. But who is the loser? IT is better probably to believe in soul, after life etc and be happy instead of thinking of life as it is and be depressed.
Posted by Dinah on March 15, 2004, at 18:05:24
In reply to Depression as response to reality, posted by Tancred62 on March 15, 2004, at 15:49:27
I think they've done studies that have shown that depressed people have a more accurate view of reality, of their abilities, and of likely outcomes than nondepressed people. Which is a kind of depressing thought. You can probably google it to find the studies.
Posted by pinkeye on March 15, 2004, at 18:13:20
In reply to Re: Depression as response to reality » Tancred62, posted by Dinah on March 15, 2004, at 18:05:24
But I would still trade in being accurate to being happy.
Posted by tabitha on March 15, 2004, at 22:29:24
In reply to Re: Depression as response to reality » Tancred62, posted by Dinah on March 15, 2004, at 18:05:24
There's something about that in "Learned Optimism" (one of the books in my donate-to-charity pile). I think it said that pessimists were valuable in workplaces because they were better at predicting realistic outcomes, whereas optimists were better for motivating people. Or something like that.
Posted by Dinah on March 15, 2004, at 22:47:18
In reply to Re: Depression as response to reality » Dinah, posted by tabitha on March 15, 2004, at 22:29:24
I was sent to one of those "motivational" speaker type classes once. He said that NASA hired a floor of people who gave all the reasons it was impossible to go to the moon or whatever, and then the rest of the building was full of the people who could solve all the problems they came up with. I don't know how true that is. But if it were true, I know which floor I'd be on. lol.
Come to think of it, I do the same sort of thing at my job now. I think of all the things that could go wrong, and I'm good at it too. But sadly, I'm not sure my gift is appreciated. :P
Posted by Tancred62 on March 17, 2004, at 8:05:33
In reply to Re: Depression as response to reality » tabitha, posted by Dinah on March 15, 2004, at 22:47:18
While I appreciate your posts, pinkeye, I still think it's better to be "myself," that is, the cynical nihilist that I am. Your suggested approach seems to be a form of denial, a "look on the bright side" philosophy that I just can't do. I'm usually suspicious of happy people, actually. They seem so, well, unrealistic. I'm not incapable of optimism, but it's an extremely rare feeling in my life. I want it to be authentic, not induced by drugs or self-imposed delusion.
Posted by Tancred62 on March 17, 2004, at 8:31:41
In reply to Re: Depression as response to reality » Dinah, posted by tabitha on March 15, 2004, at 22:29:24
I'd rather listen to you, Dinah, than read any of those books. Whenever I see the ever-expanding self help section in a book store I sigh. I think "Are there really that manny screwed up people in this country?" and "These authors are just as exploitative as TV evangelists." The whole pharmo-psychology complex is making billions, and I don't like being part of it (I take Effexor, but am trying to quit). Like I said, I'd rather be a pessimist than a drug addict. Happiness is overrated.
Posted by Dinah on March 17, 2004, at 9:47:06
In reply to Re: Depression as response to reality, posted by Tancred62 on March 17, 2004, at 8:31:41
Now, I don't think I went quite that far. :)
Perhaps a happy medium (forgive the phrase). I don't think it's healthy for someone to be seriously depressed and seriously pessimistic. The thoughts of seriously depressed people are even more distorted and inaccurate than those of happy people. I was talking about mildly depressed people. Mildly depressed people have a more accurate view of reality, according to the studies I read but cannot now find.
Posted by Tancred62 on March 17, 2004, at 11:11:06
In reply to Re: Depression as response to reality » Tancred62, posted by Dinah on March 17, 2004, at 9:47:06
Indeed. After reading some of the posts here I realize that there is a distinction between "mild" and "severe" depression, and my sympathy goes out to those who are so debilitated by their depression that they find it hard to function. That said, the question I want to pose here is whether the presumption that people “should” be happy is any more logical than the one that says they “shouldn’t” be depressed. It seems the cultural pressure to be happy, one that is exacerbated by the pharmo-psychological complex, has created a multi-billion dollar happiness industry that is trying to convince nearly everyone that if they are depressed they are not “normal” or that their depression is the result of some biochemical imbalance rather than the reality of their particular circumstance. Cases of severe, debilitating depression aside, I really think that a lot more people are on SSRIs than need to be; including myself. I’ve always been a cynical person, but when I went through a divorce, and then when my new girlfriend was killed in a car accident, I became very depressed. Who wouldn’t be? But soon I found myself buying into the medication thing; Prozac, Paxil, and now Effexor, and it has done nothing to improve my outlook that life is, essentially, meaningless. This does not mean I don’t care about things, that I don’t get up and go to work in the morning, or that such efforts have no rewards, it only means that contemporary American life is usually about 60% tedium, 10% frustration, 10% disappointment, 10% pain, and 10% “happiness.” Happiness is a rare thing, and I cherish it when it comes, but I’ve come to believe that stoicism and skepticism is a good protection against the other 90%. We are living in a time where people are beginning to recognize that there is no omnipotent, omniscient “god,” yet they cling to that notion because the reality of a godless world is too much for them to handle. I say embrace that reality. Realize that heaven and hell are on earth, and do your part to create more of the former. Create meaning out of the meaninglessness. This is my positivistic nihilism, and I am working to promulgate this philosophy across the land. The barriers to its acceptance -denial of reality, belief in the supernatural (religion), mind-altering drugs- make my task a difficult one, but I will persevere. Be not afraid of the void. And on a political note, question capitalism and fight for global economic equity.
Posted by pegasus on March 17, 2004, at 11:50:33
In reply to Re: Depression as response to reality, posted by Tancred62 on March 17, 2004, at 11:11:06
Well, your positive slant on nihilism is interesting certainly. And yet, I have to take exception to some of the things you say about depression and medication and pessimism. I recognize that what you describe is your experience. I also think that it's not necessarily appropriate to extend that to the human condition in general.
For example, I want to tell you pieces of my story, that contradict your world view. Now, I realize that this is my story, and also not extendable to the human condition in general.
I've suffered from depression and anxiety my entire life. I've been functional (usually) within that experience, and also had major reservations about medication, and how maybe it would take away some essential part of me, which was generally pessimistic (which I also saw as being realistic). But I did eventually give medication a try, and along with psychotherapy and meditation and other efforts, it changed my life. As I began to feel less depressed and anxious, I became less pessimistic. I began to see the limitations my pessimism had constructed within my life, and I began to live outside those limitations for the first time ever. I'm now in the middle of a career change that I never dared to consider before. I'm spending my time doing things that I *love*, which I always assigned to the "missed boat" category before. My life is so much more open and free than it was before.
I guess you could consider this to be unrealistic, but it looks real to me from where I am. The changes in my outlook are really changing my life. I guess what I'm saying is that maybe there is a self fulfilling prophesy aspect to this issue. If you're pessimistic, then maybe that *is* realistic, because you'll live within the limits you see. But maybe if you're optimistic, that could be realistic too, because you won't see those limitations and might move outside of them.
Sorry if this sounds sappy and pollyanna-ish. And I don't mean to invalidate your experience. I just thought it might be useful to consider this experience in the equation as well.
- p
Posted by Tancred62 on March 17, 2004, at 15:32:59
In reply to Re: Depression as response to reality, posted by pegasus on March 17, 2004, at 11:50:33
Well, winged one, I see your points. However, I should point out that I never said anything about pessimism; I noted cynicism, stoicism, skepticism, and nihilism. Cynicism is about maintaining virtue, self-control, and independence. By stoicism, I mean an approach to pain and suffering (or its opposite) whereby extremes of emotion (not emotion itself) are avoided. As someone once said "Things are never as good, or bad, as they seem." Yes, it sometimes can be kind of a balloon buster, or a bit of rain on the parade, but it also can make you survive rough times. Like you said, that's just my way of approaching life. I like to save my emotions for events or situations that merit them. Skepticism is wise for everyone, especially when so many false promises are being made by commercial interests. Finally, my nihilism is a basis for action, an acknowledgement of the essential meaninglessness of the world that makes all we do, or not do, extremely important. Now, your story of improvement and self-empowerment (with the help of medication and therapy) is encouraging, and is actually an example of you taking action. That's good. Now that you feel better, you are making meaning for yourself. I just feel that these SSRIs tend to be the "great leveler," making me and others I have talked to emotionally flaccid. I'm getting tired of that even keel, not to mention the side effects. I just hope that someday you and I both can have that virtuous life without medication. Just reading about the medication-related problems on this site is pretty scary. Seriously, I try to avoid pessimism, despite the percentages I noted earlier. But I also don't want to see life as a Hallmark card or a hideous Thomas Kincaid painting. Good luck, winged one.
Posted by Fallen4myT on March 17, 2004, at 20:42:48
In reply to Depression as response to reality, posted by Tancred62 on March 15, 2004, at 15:49:27
"Seeing things as they are"
I believe I do the same and I DO believe in God and HE *is*. I believe in many of the things you do not and that is really O.K . I am happier for it all in all at least from what I read of your posts. If I read correctly you suffer depression I do not. I do have anxiety from trauma but all in all I do not think I am happier cause I have *false beliefs*.
Posted by pegasus on March 17, 2004, at 23:11:07
In reply to Re: Depression as response to reality, posted by Tancred62 on March 17, 2004, at 15:32:59
OK, sorry, I guess it was others who mentioned pessimism. And that was rather a cornerstone of my argument. So . . . nevermind that.
I found your definitions very interesting. I'll agree that skepticism is healthy (although I know and respect people who disagree with that stance on the basis that it shuts one off from the possibility of there being anything greater than what we can directly perceive - i.e., spirituality, magic, etc.) And I'm down with your take on nihilism. No real argument there.
Your definition of cynicism baffles me, though. I always thought of it (using the modern definition - leaving the original Greek cynics out of it) as a view that humans are essentially evil and that we should expect the worst from people. I would disagree with that, so I guess I'm not a cynic. But whether I agree or disagree, I'm having a hard time seeing how it relates to maintaining virtue, self-control, and independence. Would you be so kind as to elaborate?
A point on which I respectfully disagree with you is wishing for a future without medication. I don't want it unless it's a heck of a lot better than my past without medication. I suppose that's possible. But considering that - with all the work I've done to relieve depression and anxiety - the one thing that has made the biggest improvement in my life has been medication, I doubt it. I agree that meds are complicated and the struggles many people have with them can be heartbreaking. But, there are also lots of success stories, and stories of lives being saved by meds. If meds make one emotionally flaccid, and the person doesn't like that, then I'm all for them making the choice to forgo meds. But for some, emotionally flaccid might be a drastic improvement. And for some, meds don't do that. I am thankful everyday for meds, and I wish for a future where everyone whose lives would be more livable with proper medication can have that relief. I even wish that future research will find better meds to give more suffering people relief without terrible side effects.
The other thing I respectfully disagree with you about is the stoicism. I find life much more enjoyable and manageable if I acknowledge and examine my emotions rather than avoiding them, even when they go to extremes. OK, yes, the depression is problematic in that regard. But at the same time, when I am feeling depressed, it does seem to help to acknowledge the feelings. I don't know how one would truly avoid it anyway, except with medication, which was one of the other things you seemed to be hoping to avoid. I'm interested in your thoughts here as well.
- p
Posted by lonelygirl on March 19, 2004, at 23:17:25
In reply to Re: Depression as response to reality » tabitha, posted by Dinah on March 15, 2004, at 22:47:18
Posted by lonelygirl on March 19, 2004, at 23:46:34
In reply to Re: Depression as response to reality, posted by Tancred62 on March 17, 2004, at 8:05:33
You know, I really identify with a lot of what you have said. (One exception is that I am sort of a "devout Catholic," which I put in quotes because I generally go through the motions, but I'm not sure why. I try to convince myself to believe in all of it, but I never quite can. Somehow, no matter how much people say it, I just don't feel like Jesus loves me that much.)
I definitely know what you mean about being suspicious of "happy people." You know those motivational posters? They make me SICK. I have a hard time understanding how anyone can actually take them seriously. I thoroughly enjoy http://www.despair.com (actually, I just placed an order there a couple of days ago).
Also, you know the "uplifting stories" people forward around by e-mail for no reason? Well, the only use I have for them is to forward them to an e-mail discussion group where they are labeled as "glurge" and publicly mocked (see http://www.snopes.com/glurge/glurge.asp).
I think that there are just some people in this world who can somehow, I don't know, trick themselves into getting inspired/uplifted by this stuff. I don't know why. I don't know how. I'm sure they are happier for it, but that doesn't mean that I can do the same thing. I'll bet that you have been told to "have a positive attitude" or "learn to love yourself" or something in that vein -- as though you can just decide one day, "Gee, I think I'll have a positive attitude now!" I could say that, but it wouldn't work, because I would KNOW that I was trying to trick myself; I would KNOW it wasn't real.
Same thing goes for the meds... I have discussed this in other posts, but I really resent having meds shoved down my throat as though they will just solve all of my problems. Some of them have never even considered that the reason I am unhappy (or as they would put it, "depressed") is that I have ACTUAL, real-life problems that can't be solved with a pill, unless there is a pill I don't know about that will, say, make people be nicer to me.
As far as "trading in accurate to be happy," I don't know. Maybe I would rather be happy and unrealistic than realistic and sad, but is that really a choice? I don't think it is.
Anyway, just my 2 cents.
P.S. I hope this didn't offend anyone... If so, I am really, really sorry.
Posted by Dinah on March 20, 2004, at 9:54:56
In reply to Are you, by any chance, on a hazops team? (nm) » Dinah, posted by lonelygirl on March 19, 2004, at 23:17:25
Nope, but you'd be surprised how many professions where the ability to consider the worst outcomes is both useful and unappreciated. :)
This is the end of the thread.
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