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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 9 of 9. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by pinkeye on January 19, 2004, at 13:32:05
I was wondering why it is not profitable to be a therapist? Is it because they need to spend so much of time for each patients than regular doctors do?
Posted by poet on January 19, 2004, at 14:34:35
In reply to Why is it not profitable to be a therapist?, posted by pinkeye on January 19, 2004, at 13:32:05
My therapist is a MSW and my insurance only covers MDs and on a limited basis PhDs. I can't afford to pay her what she would bill for, but she has a sliding fee scale for people like me. She's likes being a therapist, which is good, because she isn't making much money off of me.
Poet
Posted by Penny on January 19, 2004, at 17:14:07
In reply to Why is it not profitable to be a therapist?, posted by pinkeye on January 19, 2004, at 13:32:05
I think it depends on where you practice and how many kinds of insurance you accept, etc. My former T was an MSW and I suspect she did okay. My current T is a Ph.D. and I suspect she does okay as well.
And it's not as profitable to be a doc anymore either, especially with the rising cost of malpractice insurance and such. My pdoc runs a large number of clinical trials for pharm. companies, b/c he says that's where the money is.
Lots of factors. But I expect that, while I will certainly never become rich as an MSW therapist, I will do okay. Right now it's not very profitable in my current field! :-b
P
Posted by badhaircut on January 19, 2004, at 20:06:56
In reply to Why is it not profitable to be a therapist?, posted by pinkeye on January 19, 2004, at 13:32:05
I think the field is "profitable" -- but psychotherapists are just not likely to get rich.
Some numbers:
I've seen a therapist professional liability insurance package on the web priced at $2,500 to $10,000 a year. Office rent for a small suite can be $600-2,000 or more a month (say $8,000-24,000 a year). Receptionist or other 'overhead' costs would also come out of the hourly bill. Add in a professional-school average of $48,000 in student loans (I've heard of over $100,000) http://www.nelliemae.com/library/research_4.html.
There's a recent thread on current hourly rates charged ($65-145): http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20031202/msgs/286716.html
"Social workers in private practice earned a median annual income of $55,512 in 2000." And it's been *dropping*. -- http://www.socialworker.com/salaries2003.htm
Somewhere else I've seen MSW therapist average annual income reported at about $33,000.
John Grohol says, "Starting psychologists in clinical work and research generally make somewhere between $30,000 - $40,000. ... After 5-10 years in the field, many psychologists enjoy incomes ranging from $45,000 to $60,000. Few psychologists enjoy significantly higher incomes, especially since the infiltration of managed care in the United States in the 1990s."
-- http://psychcentral.com/library/becoming_psychologist.htmFor a mail-in survey in 1998, 291 PhD-level psychologists reported an average income of $73,000 a year! But it too was said to be dropping. -- http://nationalpsychologist.com/articles/art7981.htm
-bhc
Posted by 64Bowtie on January 20, 2004, at 0:11:29
In reply to Profitability: some numbers, posted by badhaircut on January 19, 2004, at 20:06:56
BHC,
Would you say that 10 years of Professional Coaches as an alternative has had any impact?
Any Ideas on why 12 step programs are disappearing in some areas altogether?
With isle after isle of Recovery/Self-Help sections at Border's and Barnes&Nobles, are people engaging more in do-it-yourself, maybe?
Lastly, are there more OTC meds available, along with less coverage on private policies, perhaps?
I'm at a cross-roads and you may have the insight I need to hear.
Posted by badhaircut on January 20, 2004, at 9:34:43
In reply to Re: Profitability shrinking? » badhaircut, posted by 64Bowtie on January 20, 2004, at 0:11:29
> Would you say that 10 years of Professional Coaches as an alternative has had any impact?
You mean like life coaches and career coaches? I don't think so. But that's a guess just based on me not knowing any or anyone who's gone to one. Besides, if therapists see such coaching as a serious income threat, they will start offering it themselves.
Managed care and other carriers lowering the session payments and capping the length of treatment that they'll pay for is, I think, the main reason for private practice psychotherapy income dropping.
> Any Ideas on why 12 step programs are disappearing in some areas altogether?Hadn't heard this.
> With isle after isle of Recovery/Self-Help sections at Border's and Barnes&Nobles, are people engaging more in do-it-yourself, maybe?
I doubt it. There're aisles of computer books, too, which doesn't hurt computer sales. I think self-help book readers are *more* likely to see a professional. I would think self-help books would more likely cut into life coaches' income.
> Lastly, are there more OTC meds available...?
OTC psych meds? Do you mean like nutritional products? I doubt the nutritional stuff cuts into therapy time. If they were (more) effective, maybe then they would. There's a lot of overlap.
> I'm at a cross-roads and you may have the insight I need to hear.
These replies are just off-the-cuff guesses. No insight implied. Good luck with your decisions!
-bhc
Posted by dragonfly25 on January 20, 2004, at 23:19:41
In reply to Re: Profitability shrinking? » badhaircut, posted by 64Bowtie on January 20, 2004, at 0:11:29
Any Ideas on why 12 step programs are disappearing in some areas altogether?
i believe it is because they have discovered tehm to be less effective than once thought. the absolute thinking (no drinking ever) hasn't been shown to be helpful, but rather more damaging in some. (of course it works for some)
a more lenient model is favored more in some places, they hold a view that one drink isn't the end of the world. hope this answered your question
dragonfly
Posted by 64Bowtie on January 20, 2004, at 23:53:25
In reply to Re: Profitability shrinking? » 64Bowtie, posted by badhaircut on January 20, 2004, at 9:34:43
Posted by 64Bowtie on January 20, 2004, at 23:54:46
In reply to Re: Profitability shrinking? » 64Bowtie, posted by dragonfly25 on January 20, 2004, at 23:19:41
This is the end of the thread.
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