Shown: posts 1 to 7 of 7. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 31, 2003, at 10:38:33
In reply to Re: Psychotherapy Nonsense » Emme, posted by glenn on October 31, 2003, at 4:06:37
> I atually went to a very good therapist and was so impressed I trained to be one for 3 years, I have to say however that it did not help at all when I became severely ill and cbt was like standing on the side of a motorway trying to stop cars by putting out my hand ( ie stopping "ants")automatic negative thoughts as they call them, if I ever managed to stop one there was a whole load more coming through.
> Medications are not perfect but at least they cannot tell you that you are denying, repressing,or not wanting to get better, and charge you plenty of money for the priveledge.
> The probem seems to be that there is very little to indicate who, or what conditions might benefit from one as opposed to the other ( or both!)
> It does appear this may be changing as ptsd seems to be made worse by therapy so at least some progress has been made.
> My own view is that a good relationship with a good therapist is great for interpersonal relationship difficulties but is maybe not such a good idea for sreious depression/ anxiety.
>
> Glenn
Posted by glenn on October 31, 2003, at 11:18:05
In reply to Re: Psychotherapy Nonsense « glenn, posted by Dr. Bob on October 31, 2003, at 10:38:33
Yes you got it in one, contant rehashing of the events leading to ptsd does seem to make it worse not better, for the reason that it seems to embed the evemts further.
I beleive that the most interesting and effective treatment is a dose of clonidine asap after the event, this apparently puts a brake on the biochemical consequences before they have a chance to do their stuff!
I do not practice, in all I did 5 years and passed all the papers but when it came to the extra 1 year supervised talking of clients I was ill!
No doubt my friends on the course would have a lovely time making a deep analysis of that, I would say it was because of chronic headaches that responded to nothing ( until I discovered inderal la!!)but then they would want to make something of that as well!!!
I do have somesympathy with cbt and carl rogers non interpretive style nowadays but they are not without their dangers! In particular it takes a very good therapist to "blame" the therapy rather than the client if it is not working, and beleive me I know a lot of "good !?" ways to put the resposiblilty on the client.
I hope yours is going well, you seem very grounded and don't seem to me to be the sort of person who would fall prey to daft therapists!Glenn
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 31, 2003, at 18:46:27
In reply to Re: Psychotherapy Nonsense « glenn, posted by Dr. Bob on October 31, 2003, at 10:38:33
Re: Psychotherapy Nonsense
Posted by KimberlyDi on October 31, 2003, at 13:54:23
In reply to http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20031030/msgs/275069.html
Excuse me?
Why can't people be ok when themselves just because they don't fit the exact definition of normal??? And why is it impossible for them to learn healthy ways to deal with their problems instead of unhealthy ways?That's pretty black and white.
> I would have to agree with Ace on this. What is the use in convincing people with problems that they are ok the way they are??? Everyone I know who has done psychotherapy has gotten much worse.
--
Re: Psychotherapy Nonsense » ace
Posted by KimberlyDi on October 31, 2003, at 13:56:09
In reply to http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20031030/msgs/275107.html
I'm curious Ace, is it distasteful for you to pay for a doctor visit? Or to pay for college to increase your education?
Posted by zeugma on October 31, 2003, at 20:44:24
In reply to Re: Psychotherapy Nonsense « glenn, posted by Dr. Bob on October 31, 2003, at 10:38:33
> > I atually went to a very good therapist and was so impressed I trained to be one for 3 years, I have to say however that it did not help at all when I became severely ill and cbt was like standing on the side of a motorway trying to stop cars by putting out my hand ( ie stopping "ants")automatic negative thoughts as they call them, if I ever managed to stop one there was a whole load more coming through.
> > Medications are not perfect but at least they cannot tell you that you are denying, repressing,or not wanting to get better, and charge you plenty of money for the priveledge.
> > The probem seems to be that there is very little to indicate who, or what conditions might benefit from one as opposed to the other ( or both!)
> > It does appear this may be changing as ptsd seems to be made worse by therapy so at least some progress has been made.
> > My own view is that a good relationship with a good therapist is great for interpersonal relationship difficulties but is maybe not such a good idea for sreious depression/ anxiety.
> >
> > GlennSadly, the guru of CBT would not agree with this last sentence (I am in complete agreement though!) This is an objectionable quote from "Feeling Good":
"Anxious individuals who face their fears often feel tremendous relief because they discover their fears were not realistic in the first place. This realization may not occur if you are simply taking tranquilizers and not facing your fears."
This is a ludicrous statement IMHO when applied to the bulk of anxiety sufferers. He makes it sound like someone who has severe social phobia just doesn't get out much. I spend every day 'facing my fears' in this sense, in that I work with others and interact with them constantly. I still feel debilitating anxiety regardless of the fact that I interact with them- and no, I am not on any 'tranquilizer.' His argument is also made incoherent, in that he has no objections to anyone's taking medications for depression. In fact he recommends that patients do so, in spite of the fact that it could be just as easily argued that someone taking an antidepressant is not 'facing her fears' by exposing herself to the situations that presumable cause depression.
It's unfortunate that Burns takes this kind of line, because it plays into the prejudice that depression is a 'serious,' 'biological' disorder, while anxiety is just a matter of having 'unrealistic fears.'
>
Posted by glenn on November 1, 2003, at 3:45:13
In reply to Re: Psychotherapy Nonsense » Dr. Bob, posted by zeugma on October 31, 2003, at 20:44:24
Yes I agree. one of my difficulties with cbt was that the therapist would try to narrow down my fears, presumably to get something concrete to work on. I would always maintain that I was afraid of everything, as if a fear switch had been left on in my head and would not turn off.
The only thing that would turn it off was xanax and for some reason ,no other method drug or technique.
Burns is actually assuming a sort of psychotherapeutic approach to anxiety as opposed to depression, wierd!!
Still to use my old training, it is clear to me that practitioners of whatever ilk are very prone to narcissism, that is they feel their method is the right one , the best one, and use a variety of defence mechanisms to write off their failures!Glenn
Posted by Emme on November 1, 2003, at 8:51:54
In reply to Re: Psychotherapy Nonsense to EMME, posted by glenn on October 31, 2003, at 11:18:05
> Yes you got it in one, contant rehashing of the events leading to ptsd does seem to make it worse not better, for the reason that it seems to embed the evemts further.
> I beleive that the most interesting and effective treatment is a dose of clonidine asap after the event, this apparently puts a brake on the biochemical consequences before they have a chance to do their stuff!Okay. Makes sense. Keep the horrible stuff from setting up permanent residence..
> I do not practice, in all I did 5 years and passed all the papers but when it came to the extra 1 year supervised talking of clients I was ill!
Ooh, rough break. Sorry to hear that.
> I do have somesympathy with cbt and carl rogers non interpretive style nowadays but they are not without their dangers! In particular it takes a very good therapist to "blame" the therapy rather than the client if it is not working, and beleive me I know a lot of "good !?" ways to put the resposiblilty on the client.
That was what bugged me about Burns' Feeling Good. It seemd cultlike and it seemed like the client would feel like a failure if the approach didn't work wonders for them. So I had to calm down from my fury before I could pick out the helpful parts.
My therapist (who recommended I take a peek at it) said it was no surprise his book would be that way since he was trying to sell himself and his approach. So...I guess all things in moderation. Take what you find useful from various approaches and be on your guard for any harmful or idiotic aspects.
> I hope yours is going well,
Well, we had a big argument yesterday. We unintentionally spent most of the hour vehemently disagreeing and having a hard time seeing the other's side. But neither of us parted angry. I think it was useful. It's a new concept for me to have a heated disagreement with someone and not have it poison the relationship or result in prolonged anger. Which is not to say that I never have conflict with anyone, but it takes a very high emotional toll. So...she took the negative and made it helpful.
you seem very grounded and don't seem to me to be the sort of person who would fall prey to daft therapists!
Thanks. :) I wish I *felt* grounded more often. It sounds like you would be a fine therapist!
Posted by glenn on November 1, 2003, at 10:34:51
In reply to Re: Psychotherapy Nonsense to EMME » glenn, posted by Emme on November 1, 2003, at 8:51:54
Yes you describe the kind of happening that I always found useful with my therapist, you ( i mean you and me etc) are not going to find it so easy to deal with such a row with ones "normal " methods whatever they are, mine was to obsess and then blank the other person which of course very rarely leads to any learning, however with therapy there is the next session!! and the chance to learn not only that disagreement doesn/t equal destruction ( a bit psychobabbly I know!)but also that you can talk about both of your experiences and check them against ones expectations (usually fears in my case)
Sounds good stuff!Glenn
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