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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 10 of 10. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by ace on October 18, 2003, at 0:52:29
Is this guy for real or what? I saw one of his infomercials. Like, what is this dude trying to prove?
This NeuroLinguistic programming of his is really questionable. There is no scientific basis for it.
And this idea of using 'good' words and 'mastery' words is silly.
Has anyone benefited from his 'work'.
Oh, by the way. Anthony loves to relay the story of how at age 20 he was living in a dirty house and driving a broken down car and doing his dishes in the bathroom (I don't have a car and my house is dirty but life can be great regardless of those things)...but he forgets to mention he was the manager of his own company at this young age.
Ace.
PS, Nardil is much better than Tony Robbins!
Posted by mattdds on October 18, 2003, at 16:53:58
In reply to Anthony Robbins...!, posted by ace on October 18, 2003, at 0:52:29
Ace,
I agree with you here. Tony Robbins is much more of a salesman / motivational speaker than a psychologist. I read a few excerpts from his book and it all seemed so vague that I could not derive *any* pragmatic use from it. I did get the sense that he was excited about *something*, but only god knows what that may be. It also seems a bit cultish, if you ask me.
NLP is quackery, in my opinion. I don't mean to put anyone down who has been helped by this, but there is absolutely no science done to show these methods work.
**Excerpt from Quackwatch.com**
Neurolinguistic Programming
Neurolinguistic programming (NLP) is a variable system of procedures purported to enable people to communicate more effectively and influence others. It is said to involve modifying the patterns or "programming" created by interactions among the brain (neuro), language (linguistic), and the body that produce both effective and ineffective behavior. Proponents claim that NLP has cured phobias, allergies, and other problems in one or a few brief sessions. Its core postulates are: (a) people are most influenced by messages that reflect how they internally represent whatever they are doing; and (b) this representation is reflected by eye-gaze patterns, posture, tone of voice, and language patterns. The internal representation can be visual (picturing what they are involved with), auditory (hearing it sounded out), or can involve other senses. Proponents claim, for example, that a someone experiencing a mental image might use the words "I see," whereas someone in an auditory mode might say "that sounds right to me. Scientific studies have demonstrated no correlation between eye movements and visual imagery, reported thoughts, or language choices. A National Research Council committee has found no significant evidence that NLP's theories are sound or that its practices are effective [19].
Good to see you back ACE! I would venture that 60-90 of Nardil (perhaps even 45?) would crush old Tony in the ring!Matt
Posted by madwand on October 19, 2003, at 14:17:15
In reply to Anthony Robbins...!, posted by ace on October 18, 2003, at 0:52:29
Well guys, I have to disagree with you (let me rephrase that - I "choose" to disagree with you). BTW, Ace, glad to finally "meet" you (you were in the middle of a block when I first joined the board).
First of all, I do agree that Anthony Robbins does not come across well on the infomercials. I think that is due in part to the medium itself -- infomercials inherently involve a lot of hype. Perhaps my perspective on Robbins is influenced by the way I first encountered him. An ex-girlfriend had purchased his tape series and I had listened to it long before seeing the infomercial.
And while I can't call myself a Robbins "success story", I did derive some benefit, despite the fact that I had had some previous exposure to some of the concepts. If you are willing, he does invite you to look at some things in a different way. And some of the exercises do seem silly, but then so do some of the things in 12 Step Recovery. The trick is to get past that and *do* them.
Here is one example. One of things he talks about is what drew him into the motivation field. Many in that field seem to have started out "down and out" until one day they read a book by one of their predecessors and it changed their life. Some even have an elaborate mythology around their "technique" and its origin (Og Mandino comes to mind). Or they claim to have made the unique discovery of *the* way to success.
And admittedly some of Robbins' informercials make it sound like he has found *the* way. But that is an artifact of marketing hype -- everyone who is selling a version of something claims they invented it.
However, Robbins' own take on it in his tapes is a little bit different. He had an early curiousity/fascination with the "success gurus" and concluded that there must be some secret that is common to all of them. He also wondered what made the difference between people it worked for and people it did not.
So, he "studied success" and came up with a program that attempted to distill the essence of the others into a purer form. He also noticed that the main difference between people for whom the various programs worked and those for whom they didn't work was the extent that the person was willing to *do* the program (as opposed to reading through and saying, "yeah, that's right"). In other words, it makes a lot less difference which program you choose than whether you actually *do* the program you choose. Obviously he would prefer you chose his, but he stresses the "do" part even over that.
Perhaps that is one of reason I am positively disposed to him. I confess I am drawn to the "success programs" (and spend too much time reading and going, "yeah, that's right"), but I really liked the way he approached the whole process.
And as for NLP (BTW, Robbins brands his variant as NAC -- NeuroAssociative Conditioning), that could be a debate unto itself. Like other things
(12 Step Recovery, therapy, Scientology, or even medication), it has worked miracles for some and failed to work miracles for others. So some swear "by" it and others swear "at" it.
On the down side, Robbins does not seem to quite understand things like addiction or depression and believes his techniques are the solution (I remember one notion that depression stemmed from how you hold your body.)One thing I find interesting though, is that this thread started out with a seemingly out-of-hand dismissal of Robbins and techniques along those lines (as opposed to medication). When I listen to Robbins and folks in that "camp", I notice a similar out-of-hand dismissal of medication! My personal belief (which I won't go further into on this thread -- the note is getting long anyway), is that no particular camp has "the" answer. Whatever route you take (including medication!), it takes personal choice and personal committment to make it work.
And as for Robbins personal "story"? I think that is a lot less relevant than whether his techniques work for you. And I apply the same standard to others whose "back story" has been called into question (Elron Hubbard, Carlos Castenada, etc.). "What actually happened" can be an interesting line of historical inquiry, but has no particular relevance in determining whether the end result is helpful to you.
I would be happy to go into some of Robbins' other techniques, but only if there is a genuine interest (i.e., if everyone on the thread is convinced he is a quack from the get-go then that would be a waste of bytes). There also might be someone lurking here who is a genuine Robbins success story and they would be the better ones to go down that road. However, due to the self-selection effect (i.e. this is essentially a "meds" board), that might not be overly likely.
Peace everyone, and have a wonderful weekend (or what's left of it).Michael
Posted by irishcatholic on October 20, 2003, at 14:14:47
In reply to Re: Anthony Robbins...! » ace, posted by madwand on October 19, 2003, at 14:17:15
excellent post!
I have both the Robbins 30 day program and the Lucinda Basset program. I have found both helpful but not stunningly life changing.While we're on this discussion, has anyone used the cognitive therapy computer program "Overcoming Depression" from Malibu Artifactual Intelligence Works? It's mentioned in the book "Good Mood" by Julian Simon.
Posted by ace on October 21, 2003, at 22:51:18
In reply to Re: Anthony Robbins...(quack quack) » ace, posted by mattdds on October 18, 2003, at 16:53:58
> Ace,
>
> I agree with you here. Tony Robbins is much more of a salesman / motivational speaker than a psychologist. I read a few excerpts from his book and it all seemed so vague that I could not derive *any* pragmatic use from it. I did get the sense that he was excited about *something*, but only god knows what that may be.
I know what it was- the $$$ he was making from his 'work'!!!
It also seems a bit cultish, if you ask me.
>
> NLP is quackery, in my opinion. I don't mean to put anyone down who has been helped by this, but there is absolutely no science done to show these methods work.Right on, bro. It is nonsense IMO. Associate negative feelings to this, positive to this, blah, blah, blah.
> **Excerpt from Quackwatch.com**
>
> Neurolinguistic Programming
> Neurolinguistic programming (NLP) is a variable system of procedures purported to enable people to communicate more effectively and influence others. It is said to involve modifying the patterns or "programming" created by interactions among the brain (neuro), language (linguistic), and the body that produce both effective and ineffective behavior. Proponents claim that NLP has cured phobias, allergies, and other problems in one or a few brief sessions. Its core postulates are: (a) people are most influenced by messages that reflect how they internally represent whatever they are doing; and (b) this representation is reflected by eye-gaze patterns, posture, tone of voice, and language patterns. The internal representation can be visual (picturing what they are involved with), auditory (hearing it sounded out), or can involve other senses. Proponents claim, for example, that a someone experiencing a mental image might use the words "I see," whereas someone in an auditory mode might say "that sounds right to me. Scientific studies have demonstrated no correlation between eye movements and visual imagery, reported thoughts, or language choices. A National Research Council committee has found no significant evidence that NLP's theories are sound or that its practices are effective [19].
>
> Good to see you back ACE! I would venture that 60-90 of Nardil (perhaps even 45?) would crush old Tony in the ring!15mg would do the job Matt!
> Matt
>
>Ace.
Posted by ace on October 21, 2003, at 22:57:07
In reply to Re: Anthony Robbins...! » ace, posted by madwand on October 19, 2003, at 14:17:15
> Well guys, I have to disagree with you (let me rephrase that - I "choose" to disagree with you).
How dare you!!! Just Kidding!
BTW, Ace, glad to finally "meet" you (you were in the middle of a block when I first joined the board).
Glad to meet you too, bro!
> First of all, I do agree that Anthony Robbins does not come across well on the infomercials. I think that is due in part to the medium itself -- infomercials inherently involve a lot of hype. Perhaps my perspective on Robbins is influenced by the way I first encountered him. An ex-girlfriend had purchased his tape series and I had listened to it long before seeing the infomercial.
> And while I can't call myself a Robbins "success story", I did derive some benefit, despite the fact that I had had some previous exposure to some of the concepts. If you are willing, he does invite you to look at some things in a different way. And some of the exercises do seem silly, but then so do some of the things in 12 Step Recovery. The trick is to get past that and *do* them.
> Here is one example. One of things he talks about is what drew him into the motivation field. Many in that field seem to have started out "down and out" until one day they read a book by one of their predecessors and it changed their life. Some even have an elaborate mythology around their "technique" and its origin (Og Mandino comes to mind). Or they claim to have made the unique discovery of *the* way to success.
> And admittedly some of Robbins' informercials make it sound like he has found *the* way. But that is an artifact of marketing hype -- everyone who is selling a version of something claims they invented it.
> However, Robbins' own take on it in his tapes is a little bit different. He had an early curiousity/fascination with the "success gurus" and concluded that there must be some secret that is common to all of them. He also wondered what made the difference between people it worked for and people it did not.
> So, he "studied success" and came up with a program that attempted to distill the essence of the others into a purer form. He also noticed that the main difference between people for whom the various programs worked and those for whom they didn't work was the extent that the person was willing to *do* the program (as opposed to reading through and saying, "yeah, that's right"). In other words, it makes a lot less difference which program you choose than whether you actually *do* the program you choose. Obviously he would prefer you chose his, but he stresses the "do" part even over that.
> Perhaps that is one of reason I am positively disposed to him. I confess I am drawn to the "success programs" (and spend too much time reading and going, "yeah, that's right"), but I really liked the way he approached the whole process.
> And as for NLP (BTW, Robbins brands his variant as NAC -- NeuroAssociative Conditioning), that could be a debate unto itself. Like other things
> (12 Step Recovery, therapy, Scientology, or even medication), it has worked miracles for some and failed to work miracles for others. So some swear "by" it and others swear "at" it.
> On the down side, Robbins does not seem to quite understand things like addiction or depression and believes his techniques are the solution (I remember one notion that depression stemmed from how you hold your body.)
>
> One thing I find interesting though, is that this thread started out with a seemingly out-of-hand dismissal of Robbins and techniques along those lines (as opposed to medication). When I listen to Robbins and folks in that "camp", I notice a similar out-of-hand dismissal of medication! My personal belief (which I won't go further into on this thread -- the note is getting long anyway), is that no particular camp has "the" answer. Whatever route you take (including medication!), it takes personal choice and personal committment to make it work.
> And as for Robbins personal "story"? I think that is a lot less relevant than whether his techniques work for you. And I apply the same standard to others whose "back story" has been called into question (Elron Hubbard, Carlos Castenada, etc.). "What actually happened" can be an interesting line of historical inquiry, but has no particular relevance in determining whether the end result is helpful to you.
> I would be happy to go into some of Robbins' other techniques, but only if there is a genuine interest (i.e., if everyone on the thread is convinced he is a quack from the get-go then that would be a waste of bytes). There also might be someone lurking here who is a genuine Robbins success story and they would be the better ones to go down that road. However, due to the self-selection effect (i.e. this is essentially a "meds" board), that might not be overly likely.
> Peace everyone, and have a wonderful weekend (or what's left of it).
>
> Michael
I'm glad that you get something out of him, Mike. But, I don't know, I really feel adverse to the guy and his books...I don't know, maybe if their was less of this 'superman' nonsense...Not really my cup off tea!But tell me, have you quit smoking or anything like that through his method?
The other guy that annoys me is this deepak Chopra- heard of him?
Take care ,
Ace.
Posted by madwand on October 23, 2003, at 7:34:51
In reply to Re: Anthony Robbins...! » madwand, posted by ace on October 21, 2003, at 22:57:07
Hi Ace,
Just a quickie to affirm that I have not abandoned this thread and have some thoughts I hope will be conducive to furthur discussion. Work has unfortunately taken away some of my PB time recently!.
BTW, GalK's recent thread reminded my of one thing that "caught my mind" about Robbins -- his attention to the power of questions:http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20031011/msgs/272207.html
Later,
Michael
Posted by mattdds on October 23, 2003, at 11:36:58
In reply to Re: Anthony Robbins...!, posted by irishcatholic on October 20, 2003, at 14:14:47
Irish,
I just jumped over to this board and saw your post - I thought this thread had been forgotten.
You wrote: Has anyone used the cognitive therapy computer program "Overcoming Depression" from Malibu Artifactual Intelligence Works?
No. But I'm a big proponent of CBT and have always thought a software program would be extremely useful. I am very surprised that one has not been developed yet.
I hope nobody confuses CBT with NLP or any other "questionable" therapy. CBT has mountains of scientific evidenct backing its efficacy. I am aware it's not for everyone, but I do believe the vast majority can benefit greatly from it.
I was a CS major in undergraduate. My programming skills are a bit outdated / rusty, but at one point I seriously contemplated developing my own CBT software (for personal use, not to sell).
Please tell me if you hear of any further developments about this or any other CBT software.
Thanks,
Matt
P.S. I really think a well developed software program in CBT could do just as much good as a therapist - without the risks of transference, dependence etc. Just a thought.
I hate to be reliant on another person for my mental health.
Posted by irishcatholic on October 23, 2003, at 14:18:11
In reply to CBT software » irishcatholic, posted by mattdds on October 23, 2003, at 11:36:58
Great to hear from you!
I have purchased the program, and have just started with it so no results to report.
Here is their website:
http://www.maiw.com/main.html
I learned about it from the book
"Good Mood" by Julian Simon.
Posted by ace on October 23, 2003, at 21:23:05
In reply to Re: Anthony Robbins...! (response coming) » ace, posted by madwand on October 23, 2003, at 7:34:51
This is the end of the thread.
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