![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 55 to 79 of 99. Go back in thread:
Posted by fallsfall on May 5, 2003, at 9:32:13
In reply to Re: Between Forever Therapy Sessions » fallsfall, posted by Dinah on May 5, 2003, at 3:29:05
I wasn't singled out, the 45 minute sessions are for all of her clients. It was in the last 6 months, I think. She didn't tell me, it was in an agreement I signed in January - so maybe that was when it happened. Someday I'll ask her about it.
She has seen me for extra sessions in the past. I remember the first time I was suicidal she saw me at 5 - that is when she goes home, so she stayed late for me. I've only done extra sessions when it is really an emergency, and she hasn't had a problem with my definition of "emergency". But I know she would not want to see me now unless I needed to go into the hospital (and we've done that over the phone in the past - she was on her cell phone driving back from 6 hours away on a Sunday). She would say that I need to be more independent and handle things on my own rather than depending on her. It still feels like I am doing the hardest therapy work yet by myself (guess that is why she says I'm dependent). I don't know. I am starting to feel a little better, I've been taking the dogs for a walk, blowing last fall's leaves, maybe I'll do some laundry or go grocery shopping today. So she'll take that as a sign of improvement and think that what she's doing is good, sigh.
I think that 6 months ago my description of her wouldn't be all that different from your description of your therapist.
I really appreciate your insight, I'm not objective, and my friends aren't really objective either (they see my pain up close and personal).
8^)
Posted by Dinah on May 6, 2003, at 9:23:30
In reply to Re: Between Forever Therapy Sessions » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on May 5, 2003, at 9:32:13
> I wasn't singled out, the 45 minute sessions are for all of her clients. It was in the last 6 months, I think. She didn't tell me, it was in an agreement I signed in January - so maybe that was when it happened. Someday I'll ask her about it.
She must have found her schedule too tight. I would imagine that it is difficult to take care of everything in ten minutes between sessions. But.... I'd be upset if our sessions were shortened. My therapist does try to play catch up with my appointment time, and they're not always the full fifty minutes. And something truly extraordinary has to be happening to go a second longer than fifty minutes. But I like knowing that the time is there.
>
> She has seen me for extra sessions in the past. I remember the first time I was suicidal she saw me at 5 - that is when she goes home, so she stayed late for me. I've only done extra sessions when it is really an emergency, and she hasn't had a problem with my definition of "emergency". But I know she would not want to see me now unless I needed to go into the hospital (and we've done that over the phone in the past - she was on her cell phone driving back from 6 hours away on a Sunday). She would say that I need to be more independent and handle things on my own rather than depending on her. It still feels like I am doing the hardest therapy work yet by myself (guess that is why she says I'm dependent).Well, I certainly have been impressed with your hard work. It does seem like you're doing some of her work as well. But you should be proud of yourself for what you are doing. My therapist really likes extra sessions as opposed to, say, phone conversations. And he prefers to address things immediately rather than wait. I would be very cynical and say it's because he has extra time to fill, but that isn't fair. He was the same way when he had an almost full time job. He would drag himself in to see me in the evenings, and I know he made a real effort to be available to me.
> I don't know. I am starting to feel a little better, I've been taking the dogs for a walk, blowing last fall's leaves, maybe I'll do some laundry or go grocery shopping today. So she'll take that as a sign of improvement and think that what she's doing is good, sigh.
>
Well, I'm glad you're feeling better. May it long continue.> I think that 6 months ago my description of her wouldn't be all that different from your description of your therapist.
Well, now you've terrified me. :-O (smile)
>
> I really appreciate your insight, I'm not objective, and my friends aren't really objective either (they see my pain up close and personal).
>
> 8^)I really hope your session goes well on Wednesday.
Dinah
Posted by fallsfall on May 8, 2003, at 13:15:34
In reply to Re: Between Forever Therapy Sessions, posted by Dinah on May 6, 2003, at 9:23:30
Things went a little better in therapy this week. For the last week, I've been feeling a little better, more energy, getting a little bit done.
My therapist and I talked about a dream that I had, which had a theme in it of my guessing what something was, her correcting my interpretation, but I don't understand why what she is saying is different. Basically, bad communication. As we went on to the next topic (dependency) she decided that she should verify her understanding of what I was depending on her for. Lo and behold, what she believed (self-concept) was not what I need her for (self-esteem, self evaluation). It was encouraging that she now understands what the issue is.
We talked about the root cause of my dependency - I need her to evaluate (good vs. bad) my self, to determine if I am a worthwhile person. She asked how other people do it. I have no idea. I believe that I have always had someone to tell me if I was OK or not. How do all of you know?
I had to tell her some pretty deep things, and while I was aware that it was risky, I told her everything. That is a major improvement. And it seemed OK.
After I left, she won another point. She was trying to tell me that people aren't Good or Bad - that it is a continuum, but I didn't buy it at the time. After I left, though, I could see the continuum, but there is a point where it goes from gradations of good to gradations of bad (like a D- is passing, but an F is failing). So I see her continuum, but I also see my black and white. Small progress, but none the less progress.
I wasn't nearly as scared to be there or to talk. I hope that this can continue.
Posted by Dinah on May 8, 2003, at 16:52:19
In reply to Re: Forever Therapy, posted by fallsfall on May 8, 2003, at 13:15:34
I love sessions like that. :) I'm glad it went well.
Posted by noa on May 8, 2003, at 19:40:49
In reply to Re: Forever Therapy, posted by fallsfall on May 8, 2003, at 13:15:34
You continue to impress me!
Posted by fallsfall on May 9, 2003, at 5:39:37
In reply to Re: Forever Therapy » fallsfall, posted by noa on May 8, 2003, at 19:40:49
Thank you all for your wonderful support. It has made a real difference. When I was feeling really needy and couldn't see my therapist, you guys were there to help out.
Onward and upward!
Posted by noa on May 21, 2003, at 18:02:57
In reply to Re: Thanks for your support, posted by fallsfall on May 9, 2003, at 5:39:37
FF, how goes it?
Posted by fallsfall on May 22, 2003, at 7:30:58
In reply to Re: Thanks for your support » fallsfall, posted by noa on May 21, 2003, at 18:02:57
Hi, Noa. You are so sweet.
Things are much improved over those days. I am understanding self-esteem better (though mine is still pretty low...). I'm no longer terrified to talk to her. I do continue to freak out thinking that she is mad at me or frustrated. Last session she was quite comforting, and that memory helps me through.
I am doing more. I am taking a cake decorating class (I need to frost a cake this morning so I can decorate it in class this afternoon). I had a date (OMG!), and we are going hiking on Sunday. This is all a bit overwhelming, but if I survive today I can nap a bit tomorrow.
So the crisis is pretty much over, and now I have to deal with getting better.
Thanks for asking.
Posted by noa on May 22, 2003, at 22:59:48
In reply to Re: Thanks for your support » noa, posted by fallsfall on May 22, 2003, at 7:30:58
WOW! Have fun!
Posted by shar on May 27, 2003, at 1:16:34
In reply to Re: Thanks for your support, posted by noa on May 22, 2003, at 22:59:48
Noa,
You are so wonderful. You have such a good spirit and soul, I don't understand how you do it. But....however, please keep on, because we sure need it!Shar
Posted by Ilene on July 10, 2003, at 0:18:19
In reply to Re: Forever therapy » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on April 21, 2003, at 10:22:03
> My therapist still worries that I'm not getting better (and that is a reasonable worry). 18 months ago I did a bad thing. I typed her name in a search engine and collected some information about her (personal) life from there and other sources. I ended up with her address and phone number, email address, her husband and kids' names, her AIM screenname. I put her on my buddy list and watched when she was online. She almost threw me out. I understand why. 2 months ago, I searched on her name again. I read a couple of articles she had written, and then found a committee she was on - and her name was a link. I followed the link, and it was email - with her email address again. I closed the windows and said "I'm not going there".
Okay, so your therapist, who knows that her patients are not exactly stable, leaves her personal data easily accessible on the internet. Then she gets upset because a patient finds publicly-accessible information? It's a little harder than looking up her name in the white pages, but just a little.
I think you are right to find another therapist. One with common sense.
Ilene
Posted by fallsfall on July 10, 2003, at 7:43:26
In reply to Re: Forever therapy » fallsfall, posted by Ilene on July 10, 2003, at 0:18:19
Thanks for your support.
I did have to dig a bit to find the more sensitive information.
I have my 5th session today with my new therapist (whose wife put a vacation picture of the family on the internet - but in some ways that diffuses the "need to know"). I have cancelled all appointments with my old therapist and haven't talked to her in a couple of weeks. It feels much better than I thought it would feel.
Posted by Ilene on July 13, 2003, at 23:28:23
In reply to Re: Forever therapy » Ilene, posted by fallsfall on July 10, 2003, at 7:43:26
> Thanks for your support.
>
> I did have to dig a bit to find the more sensitive information.
>After following the link to the site about cyber-stalking I can see why your therapist got upset. However...she probably has an unlisted phone number, or at the least she doesn't list her home address.
I'm beginning to wonder if psychotherapy is a good idea. (I've never gotten much out of it.) Seems like many people become *more* dependent rather than less.
I also wonder about the motivations of therapists. I think many of them go into psychology because they're a little nutty themselves. To put a more postitive spin on it, they got interested in the field because they wished to understand themselves.
The last therapist I tried wanted me to paste "affirmations" on my bathroom mirror. If an affirmation is any better than a magical incantation, I'll affirm myself into a happy, charming, talented 21-yr-old genius, heiress, and beauty queen. Why go for mere mental health when you can have it all?
Ilene
Posted by fallsfall on July 14, 2003, at 12:25:39
In reply to Re: Forever therapy » fallsfall, posted by Ilene on July 13, 2003, at 23:28:23
> After following the link to the site about cyber-stalking I can see why your therapist got upset. However...she probably has an unlisted phone number, or at the least she doesn't list her home address.
>
She took appropriate measures with everything except her email address. I found the rest because I was creative and unrelenting.> I'm beginning to wonder if psychotherapy is a good idea. (I've never gotten much out of it.) Seems like many people become *more* dependent rather than less.
>
Personally, I was dependent to begin with. But I would say, after 8 1/2 years I am not less dependent.> I also wonder about the motivations of therapists. I think many of them go into psychology because they're a little nutty themselves. To put a more postitive spin on it, they got interested in the field because they wished to understand themselves.
>
No clue! I could never be a therapist - I don't know what "normal" is...> The last therapist I tried wanted me to paste "affirmations" on my bathroom mirror. If an affirmation is any better than a magical incantation, I'll affirm myself into a happy, charming, talented 21-yr-old genius, heiress, and beauty queen. Why go for mere mental health when you can have it all?
>
> IleneReally - go for it! My previous therapist was CBT, so I could see her suggesting affirmations. I learned some good skills from her. My new therapist is Psychodynamic (I don't think he'll suggest affirmations). I intellectualize everything. I'm hoping he can get below the intellectual level and that changes can take place that way.
Posted by Ilene on July 14, 2003, at 13:14:57
In reply to Re: Forever therapy » Ilene, posted by fallsfall on July 14, 2003, at 12:25:39
> She took appropriate measures with everything except her email address. I found the rest because I was creative and unrelenting.
Do tell.
>
> > I'm beginning to wonder if psychotherapy is a good idea. (I've never gotten much out of it.) Seems like many people become *more* dependent rather than less.
> >
> Personally, I was dependent to begin with. But I would say, after 8 1/2 years I am not less dependent.
>
I've come to realize that constant venting doesn't do me much good. I go over the same misery again and again and again and again ....doesn't go away.
> >
> No clue! I could never be a therapist - I don't know what "normal" is...Neither do I. It's a major problem. I have a number of conditions I didn't know were abnormal for decades.
>
>
>My previous therapist was CBT, so I could see her suggesting affirmations. I learned some good skills from her. My new therapist is Psychodynamic (I don't think he'll suggest affirmations). I intellectualize everything. I'm hoping he can get below the intellectual level and that changes can take place that way.What's wrong with intellect? I used to feel defective because of it. Now I recognize my intellect is one of my greatest assets--which is why it pains me when I feel my IQ descending. Not that intelligence has given me a job or anything, but it helps me figure things out.
I used to be able to use self-taught CBT techniques, but I can't anymore. It's like the Dark Side is too strong. Besides, I am bitter about having lost most of my life to severe depression and anxiety. I'm almost 50, and I now recognized I've suffered since I was a small child. "I coulda been a contenda"
And how do you go "below the intellectual level"? Channel the limbic system and unlease your id upon the world? is this another way of blaming the victim?
On the other hand, my emotions are completely out of hand. I also feel like my body and my mind are becoming less and less engaged with each other. I can see it happening, but I haven't found a way to stop it.
I pose a conundrum to my pdoc/therapist. It's a rather strange relationship. I do the diagnosis, she does the prescribing. I should go back to school and get a degree in neuropsychophysiology, if there is such a thing. (Like it would be any more useful than my other degrees.)
She's finally convinced my to see another pdoc. I hate seeing new doctors because they are usually dismissive of my self-take. I get so anxious and defensive that I blow the whole thing.
At least the sweet and patient Dr. R. doesn't get all freaked out when I send her articles that contradict her diagnoses. I think I may have convinced her that DSM-IV is not the Bible.
Rant stoppage.
Each of us is alone in the world.
Ilene
Posted by fallsfall on July 14, 2003, at 15:19:55
In reply to Re: Forever therapy » fallsfall, posted by Ilene on July 14, 2003, at 13:14:57
> She took appropriate measures with everything except her email address. I found the rest because I was creative and unrelenting.
Do tell.Not a chance.
> No clue! I could never be a therapist - I don't know what "normal" is...
Neither do I. It's a major problem. I have a number of conditions I didn't know were abnormal for decades.
>
My new therapist was asking how often I am in contact with my family and asked if I thought that was "normal". I said that was how it was when I was a kid, so it seemed normal to me.Intellect is wonderful, but it does make us see and react to the world differently. I found, in my CBT therapy, that I was pretty good at using the skills (activity scheduling, I use the questioning technique that gets you to look deeper at the problem with my friends all the time - and myself occasionally, recognizing cognitive distortions (but not changing them), my brain is uncooperative, I know there are more). I never did changing your emotions by changing your thoughts. It always seemed like lying to me - Feeling sad. Think happy [no, I'm sad]. Maybe I'm just too stubborn. I won't believe anything just because someone said so - I have to think it through and see if _I_ think it is true.
I have no idea if my new therapist will be able to go below my intellect. I'm hoping that since he'll be dealing with some unconscious material that maybe there will be some kind of advantage. It sounds good when I read about it. This is my idea, nobody else's, so it could very well be total baloney. All I know is that I needed a change, and Psychodynamic is a pretty big change from CBT.
I suffer more from a lack of emotions (or emotions that are suppressed). I have made some progress just by being more aware of them and encouraging myself when I do figure out what is going on. Emotions are weird.
For fun I read psychology books. Not "The Feeling Good Handbook", but "A Primer of Transference-Focused Psychotherapy for the Borderline Patient". When my therapist asked what kind of books I read I said "The kind of books you would read" he didn't believe me until I gave him a title. I've decided that they make me feel optimistic because they are always talking about therapists fixing the problems. I keep looking for my problem in the books, but I haven't really found it yet. I figure if I know enough that I can work alone on the days I don't have therapy, and we'll get done much faster. My old therapist didn't want me reading the books, she thought it made me spend too much effort on therapy and not enough on life. She was probably right. But I did introduce her to DBT (and she is a congitive/behavioral therapist - it is THE treatment of choice for Borderline Personality Disorder currently, and it's based on CBT).
It is very hard to say to a doctor "I understand a lot more than you think I do, so please use the technical words, and let me participate in the decision making". First, they don't believe you. Second, it really challenges their ego. Good luck with your new pdoc.
We're alone, but I really believe that I can find people to share all of my traits with - not in one person, but maybe 10 people combined could make me feel like someone knows what the pieces are like.
When do you see your new pdoc?
Posted by Ilene on July 14, 2003, at 16:10:40
In reply to Re: Forever therapy » Ilene, posted by fallsfall on July 14, 2003, at 15:19:55
> My new therapist was asking how often I am in contact with my family and asked if I thought that was "normal". I said that was how it was when I was a kid, so it seemed normal to me.
"Normal" is a Gaussian distribution, anyway.
>
> Intellect is wonderful, but it does make us see and react to the world differently.From what? Is there a way we're "supposed" to see the world?
I found, in my CBT therapy, that I was pretty good at using the skills (activity scheduling, I use the questioning technique that gets you to look deeper at the problem with my friends all the time - and myself occasionally, recognizing cognitive distortions (but not changing them), my brain is uncooperative, I know there are more).
I can do that too. It doesn't change how I feel anymore.
I never did changing your emotions by changing your thoughts. It always seemed like lying to me - Feeling sad. Think happy [no, I'm sad]. Maybe I'm just too stubborn. I won't believe anything just because someone said so - I have to think it through and see if _I_ think it is true.
I've had bad results doing the things that were supposed to help. Like exercise. I'm skeptical to the point of being a contrarian.
By now I am angry that I have to go through this.
>
> I have no idea if my new therapist will be able to go below my intellect.A sub-intellectual?
I'm hoping that since he'll be dealing with some unconscious material that maybe there will be some kind of advantage. It sounds good when I read about it. This is my idea, nobody else's, so it could very well be total baloney. All I know is that I needed a change, and Psychodynamic is a pretty big change from CBT.
>
> I suffer more from a lack of emotions (or emotions that are suppressed). I have made some progress just by being more aware of them and encouraging myself when I do figure out what is going on. Emotions are weird.Emotions are sure hard to pin down. They are either uncooperative or spitefully mute. Wish they would learn English....Asberger's?
>
> For fun I read psychology books. Not "The Feeling Good Handbook", but "A Primer of Transference-Focused Psychotherapy for the Borderline Patient".I search PubMed and troll the internet for full-text psychiatry and neuropsychopharmacology journal articles.
When my therapist asked what kind of books I read I said "The kind of books you would read" he didn't believe me until I gave him a title. I've decided that they make me feel optimistic because they are always talking about therapists fixing the problems.
There's some literature about evidence-based psychology, but I haven't gone after it. Yet. If I'm going to spend time and money on something I want an idea of how well it works.
I keep looking for my problem in the books, but I haven't really found it yet. I figure if I know enough that I can work alone on the days I don't have therapy, and we'll get done much faster. My old therapist didn't want me reading the books, she thought it made me spend too much effort on therapy and not enough on life.
You mean--you have one?
She was probably right. But I did introduce her to DBT (and she is a congitive/behavioral therapist - it is THE treatment of choice for Borderline Personality Disorder currently, and it's based on CBT).
The dialectical-whatever? Are you borderline?
>
> It is very hard to say to a doctor "I understand a lot more than you think I do, so please use the technical words, and let me participate in the decision making". First, they don't believe you. Second, it really challenges their ego. Good luck with your new pdoc.The ego thing is a real barrier. When I ask, "How do you know that?" they think I am challanging them instead of asking a question because I want to know the answer.
>
> We're alone, but I really believe that I can find people to share all of my traits with - not in one person, but maybe 10 people combined could make me feel like someone knows what the pieces are like.
>
> When do you see your new pdoc?I hope the new pdoc is just supposed to be a consult. I don't know if I will see him until September. I'm going away on Thursday.
I.
Posted by fallsfall on July 14, 2003, at 23:21:11
In reply to Re: Forever therapy » fallsfall, posted by Ilene on July 14, 2003, at 16:10:40
No, I have no life. I have only therapy.
Yes, I am Borderline, but not typical. I'm not impulsive and angry. I fear abandonment and have self issues.
So, you say you have been depressed for many, many years. What is happening now? Are you feeling well? Are you working?
I did OK until my late 30s and 6 1/2 of the last 8 1/2 years have been bad for me.
I do have compassion for the doctors. I know I'm not the easiest patient.
Posted by Ilene on July 15, 2003, at 0:19:45
In reply to Re: Forever therapy » Ilene, posted by fallsfall on July 14, 2003, at 23:21:11
> No, I have no life. I have only therapy.
>
> Yes, I am Borderline, but not typical. I'm not impulsive and angry. I fear abandonment and have self issues.What's a "self" issue?
>
> So, you say you have been depressed for many, many years. What is happening now? Are you feeling well? Are you working?
>
What is happening now? I'm flying cross-country on Thursday, picking up my car, driving 450 miles to meet some complete strangers and live in their house while they go to Europe. Stressful.Part of it is vacation, part of it is getting away from the heat. My kids will be joining me. It might be fun for a while, and then I will come home in 6 weeks, and I will return to my pathetic state.
I'm worried about the driving because I get intensely anxious and then I drive badly, and then I worry about my driving, and then I get even more anxious....I'm also worried that I may have to stay in a motel by myself. It's a frightening thought.
I was less anxious before my father died. I took care of him for a couple of months before he died. Then I was stuck all by myself in a house full of pictures of dead people. One of them was only 3 when she died.
Feeling well? Sometimes I get distracted from thinking about myself, but that doesn't last long, and I start thinking again. Mostly about how horrible I feel.
I haven't worked for *years*. The thought terrifies me. I can't deal with the thought of anyone judging me. I don't work well with most people, either. I'm not very functional as far as day-to-day stuff goes. I become paralyzed by what most people consider minor difficulties.
My pdoc thinks my life has been more traumatic than most people's. I don't know if that's true or not. I don't know how much of a difference it makes anyway. I might be less anxious if Dorothy's house hadn't fallen on me, but I don't think I would be less depressed.
I feel suicidal most of the time. I just hate my life. It's not doing me any good.
> I did OK until my late 30s and 6 1/2 of the last 8 1/2 years have been bad for me.
>
> I do have compassion for the doctors. I know I'm not the easiest patient.What happened in your late 30's? Or was it just that you couldn't keep the cracks spackled?
My trendline has been down. I'm slogging through, even though I don't see the point.
I know there are other ways to experience the world. Many people would think I have a pretty nice life. There have been a few periods when ADs worked. I have a foggy recollection of feeling okay.
How I feel makes no sense. I know it makes no sense. On the other hand, demanding that things "make sense" is just as nonsensical. I
don't know if there is a "why", other than heredity.
Oh well, it's late.
I.
Posted by fallsfall on July 15, 2003, at 21:30:30
In reply to Re: Forever therapy » fallsfall, posted by Ilene on July 15, 2003, at 0:19:45
> What's a "self" issue?
A "self" issue means that you don't have a clearly defined self or a self that works well. In my case, I have redefined an important part of my self in the last 5 years. Currently I am trying to straighten out how I determine my self worth. I would determine my own basic selfworth. But I had given my therapist the "power" to negatively affect my self worth when she was angry at me (but she couldn't affect it positively). So every time I THOUGHT she was angry (which was probably a lot more than she really was), I would be sure that I was totally worthless - evil. This is not a good system. So I'm trying to fix that now.
Well, your summer sounds... exciting. I am impressed. I couldn't drive 450 miles. Do you have to drive back across the country? With how many kids? I can't concentrate very long so I fall asleep after about 45 minutes.
How did you find this? Is it a fancy house? Do they have a computer?
You were awfully nice to take care of your dad. I'm sure he appreciated having you around. That took courage.
Sounds like you don't feel too well. I'm sorry. It isn't fun to go through the days like that. Did you get *any* relief from your earlier therapy? I get from your posts that you are a bit cynical about therapy. I believe in therapy, but I've just changed therapists because I wasn't happy with my original therapist. So ask me in 6 months.
In my late 30s I had too much responsibility at work and too much responsibility at home and I crashed. I guess I had kept the bowing wall up with spackle, but eventually the bow was too much and the wall came tumbling down. It is awfully hard to get all of those little pieces back together into a wall.
Posted by Ilene on July 15, 2003, at 23:03:18
In reply to Re: Forever therapy » Ilene, posted by fallsfall on July 15, 2003, at 21:30:30
> > What's a "self" issue?
>
> A "self" issue means that you don't have a clearly defined self or a self that works well. In my case, I have redefined an important part of my self in the last 5 years. Currently I am trying to straighten out how I determine my self worth.Self worth got left behind somewhere. Now it's like trying to remember natural logs--I know I did them in high school, but that's all. Just doesn't come up.
I would determine my own basic selfworth. But I had given my therapist the "power" to negatively affect my self worth when she was angry at me (but she couldn't affect it positively). So every time I THOUGHT she was angry (which was probably a lot more than she really was), I would be sure that I was totally worthless - evil. This is not a good system. So I'm trying to fix that now.
How borderline.
>
> Well, your summer sounds... exciting. I am impressed. I couldn't drive 450 miles.I don't know whether I can, either. I can hardly make it to the grocery store.
Do you have to drive back across the country?
Having the car shipped. Costs more than having myself shipped, but it weighs more than I do. (It's a really nice car. I'm moving beyond the belief that car=transportation.) I couldn't figure out a way to get someone to come with me, and I don't want to talk to myself all the way back.
With how many kids?
Two kids. Maybe just one, if son doesn't get his act together vis-a-vis summer reading homework.
I can't concentrate very long so I fall asleep after about 45 minutes.
>
I have problems concentrating. That and the anxiety could be real problems.> How did you find this?
craigslist
Is it a fancy house?
I haven't seen the house, but a friend who went over there says I'll love it. It's in a great neighborhood.
> Do they have a computer?
They are taking their laptop with them. I will be taking my husband's laptop with me, but I don't know how much I will use it.
> You were awfully nice to take care of your dad. I'm sure he appreciated having you around. That took courage.
>
Nice? Courage? It was like being in an altered state. Besides, everyone else in the family is dead.I think he appreciated having me around when he was lucid. He seemed terribly depressed much of the time, but couldn't communicate. We had "issues" I wanted to discuss but he was too out of it by the time I made that decision. The awfulness didn't hit until after the funeral and I was by myself for 2 months.
> Sounds like you don't feel too well. I'm sorry. It isn't fun to go through the days like that.
Fun? What's that?
Did you get *any* relief from your earlier therapy?
None. I have been clinically depressed most of my life and none of the therapists I went to even noticed. I've self-diagnosed most of my ailments.
I get from your posts that you are a bit cynical about therapy.
Let's just say I'm an agnostic.
Think about it like this: when you take a drug, you can read the insert or get the prescribing information online. You know how much you're going to spend and what it might do to you. It's a cost/benefit analysis. I don't have the same quality of information about therapy, and not all therapists are created equal.
There's a relatively new therapuetic approach called "evidence-based medicine". When I first read about it I wondered what medicine was based on before--astrology, maybe? There is--or was--a lot of squabbling about it. Medicine being an art as much as a science. (Should I consult Sr. Picasso about my bad knee?)
I know there is some evidence-based information on the efficacy of therapy, but I haven't read much of it. When I really delved into the medical literature about depression the picture was not "depression is a disease that can be treated". *Treated*, sure, but not very well.
So demonstrating that therapy + meds is better than either alone isn't meaningful when effectiveness means "better than placebo, but not by much".
I believe in therapy, but I've just changed therapists because I wasn't happy with my original therapist. So ask me in 6 months.
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> In my late 30s I had too much responsibility at work and too much responsibility at home and I crashed. I guess I had kept the bowing wall up with spackle, but eventually the bow was too much and the wall came tumbling down. It is awfully hard to get all of those little pieces back together into a wall.
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I think I've always been either dysthymic or depressed.I.
Posted by fallsfall on July 16, 2003, at 18:27:22
In reply to Re: Forever therapy, posted by Ilene on July 15, 2003, at 23:03:18
I hope that you and the kid(s) enjoy your adventure! Drive safely.
Posted by Morgen on July 21, 2003, at 2:01:26
In reply to Re: Forever therapy » Ilene, posted by fallsfall on July 16, 2003, at 18:27:22
I realize that I am coming into this conversation (that is, "Forever Therapy") incredibly late, and I apologize if this is back-tracking to the rest of you, but it is so nice to read that others have similar attachment-related concerns. I am moving out of the state for a reason beyond my control and have only a few appointments left with my therapist. We (my therapist and I) knew this was coming, and part of me is really mad at her for not picking up on it earlier that saying goodbye to her was something I needed a lot of preparation for. There is the rational me that knows she's not psychic, and also knows that I've hidden the intensity of how I feel somewhat effectively... which has a lot to do with my fear of being inappropriate and my fear of being rejected (and perhaps those are the same thing?). Still, right now I regret therapy, and that doesn't feel good because I think the world of my therapist and generally tend to think we've done a lot of good work together.
There is precious little on the internet about "transference" that is even remotely comforting. Most of what I found was clearly written for the professional, and I think I just made myself worse by reading about myself in the third person. But I suppose its progress to admit what's going on with me.
Thanks for the recommendation someone made earlier on the book -- I intend to pick it up. I'm looking at only three or four sessions more at the very most, and if I'm going to come across information about a "diagnosis" I at least want to hear (somewhere) that its normal and natural... or at the very least, that I'm not alone.
Thanks
Posted by fallsfall on July 21, 2003, at 8:04:50
In reply to Re: Forever therapy, posted by Morgen on July 21, 2003, at 2:01:26
It sounds to me like your feelings are very natural.
How long have you been seeing her? I'm glad to hear that the two of you have done some good work together.
I completely understand that you think she should have recognized that this will be a difficult transition for you. Unfortunately, even the best therapists don't always predict the future as well as we would like, and (as you point out) sometimes we are too good at hiding what is important to us.
Currently, I am angry at my old therapist for completely missing a lot of stuff. But at the same time, before this bad period started, I know that she taught me so much that I will use for the rest of my life. I am borderline, so it is hard for me to see good and bad at the same time. This means that I sort of have to choose. So I am choosing to be glad that I know so much more than I did. Some day I know that I will need to deal with the anger, too. But that is not today. Maybe you can handle your situation better than I can!
My experience in therapy says that it is best to bring these kinds of issues up and talk about them. Most therapists are really good at talking honestly about most subjects like this. Since this topic seems to be pretty important to you, I would suggest bringing it up right away and being as open about it as you can.
What kind of "diagnosis" are you expecting? When I think of "transference" I think of seeing my therapist having attributes or motives or actions that really belong to people in my past (i.e. my mother) and not to the therapist at all. Is that how you are using the word?
You sound perfectly normal to me...
Posted by Dinah on July 21, 2003, at 9:58:02
In reply to Re: Forever therapy, posted by Morgen on July 21, 2003, at 2:01:26
As Fallsfall said, it sounds perfectly normal to me to develop a strong attachment to someone who is there for you week after week, listening as you share your deepest most intimate feelings. There's nothing wrong or pathological about that.
But if you've hidden it well, she might have been reluctant to bring it up. And the truth is that not *everyone* does get that attached to their therapist. It also may depend on her theoretical orientation. Someone who primarily practices cognitive behavior therapy, for example, doesn't pay as much attention to transference and the relationship between the therapist and the client.
I'd bring it up with her, admit to the anger, and to the gratitude for all the work you've done together. It's ok to feel both of those things. It's not even outside the realm of possibility that you feel a bit abandoned by her, even though it's you that's moving. Our deeper feelings aren't always logical. And that's ok. Especially if we talk them out.
I still don't know about transference. I think that traditionally it was feelings about the therapist that come from feelings we had for someone else in our lives. Other people define it more as any feelings for the therapist. The idea is that anything we feel for the therapist can't be "real" because the therapeutic situation isn't "real". We don't know that much about the therapist in real life, so most of what we feel for them is based on our fantasies of who they are. At least I think that's what a lot of therapists think.
But I think there's a bit of real attachment in there too. I know my therapist isn't just who he is in the therapy room. That's why I don't want to be his real life friend or anything. But isn't it possible to form a genuine attachment to the person who shows up each week? The part of the therapist that he/she presents each week? Is that really "merely" transference?
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