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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 47 to 71 of 99. Go back in thread:
Posted by allisonf on May 2, 2003, at 23:36:03
In reply to Re: Forever therapy » allisonf, posted by Dinah on May 2, 2003, at 9:05:22
Thanks. Last week I was reading some of "To those with therapists..." above, and I was thinking about how you called your therapist when you thought he was upset about his mother's death (was that right?)...and it made me think that calling to ck in with my therapist was the right option for me this week.
Also, I will pass along your compliments to her! :)
Allison
Posted by allisonf on May 2, 2003, at 23:39:14
In reply to Re: Forever therapy » allisonf, posted by Dinah on May 2, 2003, at 9:05:22
Oops. I apologize about th wording of my previous message. Obviously, your therapist was upset by the situation...you just wanted to make sure he was doing ok.
Posted by fallsfall on May 4, 2003, at 21:30:15
In reply to Re: Forever therapy » Dinah, posted by allisonf on May 2, 2003, at 23:39:14
I am very dependent on my therapist, but I'm trying to "behave" and do the normal thing. I had a dream this morning - very detailed, long, and clear. It was about my therapist and me. It clearly says a lot about the way I see her, the way I see our relationship, the hopes/fears I have for therapy. I have a strong urge to drop a copy off at her office Monday. I see her on Wednesday. But I'm afraid that it will be seen as the equivalent of calling between sessions, i.e. being dependent. The last thing I want to do is make her mad.
Why do I want her to have it before the session? I'm not expecting her to call me. I want her to have some time to think about it before I see her. In some sense, I want her to have to do some work (it does feel to me that I'm doing all the work these days). Otherwise, she/I will read it and she'll ask me what I think and I'll tell her and I won't find out what she thinks. (that's unfair, if I asked her she would tell me)
Also we only got through about half of what we wanted to talk about last week. If I drop it off then we won't spend session time reading it.
I never dream, so this is an event - I'm excited, won't she be excited?
So is dropping it off "dependent"?
Posted by Dinah on May 4, 2003, at 21:43:33
In reply to Between Forever Therapy Sessions, posted by fallsfall on May 4, 2003, at 21:30:15
I get those urges too, sometimes. But the one time I've been moved to contact him between sessions with my truly stunning insight, it ended up not being all that satisfying.
So based on my own less than wonderful experience, I'd wait to give it to her. And perhaps it will be extra special unwrapping the gift together, so to speak.
I do understand the not wanting to fill up the session though. I have got so extra much to tell him tomorrow, because so much happened when he was out of town, that I wish he had a two hour stretch to give me. It's going to feel like forever until Friday when I see him next. It's going to take all I have to resist scheduling an extra appointment. Unfortunately, I know he'd be willing enough to do that.
That fifty minute hour is just not long enough.
Posted by Eggy on May 4, 2003, at 22:40:19
In reply to Re: Forever therapy » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on April 21, 2003, at 10:22:03
Posted by fallsfall on May 4, 2003, at 23:33:05
In reply to Re: Between Forever Therapy Sessions » fallsfall, posted by Dinah on May 4, 2003, at 21:43:33
Some times in the past I have left her journalling. She always acknowledged getting it, and didn't seem to have a problem with it. She would call me if I didn't say she didn't need to.
But, you are right, it is probably better to err on the side of caution. I will control myself and keep it until Wednesday.
My therapist has reduced her sessions to 45 minutes, and I only get one per week. Enjoy your 100 minutes!
Thanks for your voice of reason.
Posted by fallsfall on May 4, 2003, at 23:37:25
In reply to Go here...LINK, posted by Eggy on May 4, 2003, at 22:40:19
WOW
Very sobering.
Posted by Dinah on May 5, 2003, at 3:29:05
In reply to Re: Between Forever Therapy Sessions » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on May 4, 2003, at 23:33:05
Well, I do hate to be a voice of reason. :) Really.
It sounds like her attitude is different. Mine has no particular problem scheduling extra sessions or moving them up (except that one time I was so excited about my insight - I'm assuming my timing was genuinely bad). But asking him to read something outside session or talking ot him on the phone between sessions isn't all that useful. He's just not good on the phone and never has been. And he's forgetful to the extreme, Or draws really good boundaries, something like that.
So my suggestion was based on my therapist, and yours might have different strenghts and weaknesses.
I know I'm pretty lucky having the time I do have with him a week. I also feel pretty self indulgent about it. I'm sorry your therapist has cut you to 45 minutes, was that from 50 minutes? Was it a sort of fee increase, or was it based on the perception of your dependency? I'm sorry if you've told me that already. My brain has been whirling this past week.
Posted by fallsfall on May 5, 2003, at 9:32:13
In reply to Re: Between Forever Therapy Sessions » fallsfall, posted by Dinah on May 5, 2003, at 3:29:05
I wasn't singled out, the 45 minute sessions are for all of her clients. It was in the last 6 months, I think. She didn't tell me, it was in an agreement I signed in January - so maybe that was when it happened. Someday I'll ask her about it.
She has seen me for extra sessions in the past. I remember the first time I was suicidal she saw me at 5 - that is when she goes home, so she stayed late for me. I've only done extra sessions when it is really an emergency, and she hasn't had a problem with my definition of "emergency". But I know she would not want to see me now unless I needed to go into the hospital (and we've done that over the phone in the past - she was on her cell phone driving back from 6 hours away on a Sunday). She would say that I need to be more independent and handle things on my own rather than depending on her. It still feels like I am doing the hardest therapy work yet by myself (guess that is why she says I'm dependent). I don't know. I am starting to feel a little better, I've been taking the dogs for a walk, blowing last fall's leaves, maybe I'll do some laundry or go grocery shopping today. So she'll take that as a sign of improvement and think that what she's doing is good, sigh.
I think that 6 months ago my description of her wouldn't be all that different from your description of your therapist.
I really appreciate your insight, I'm not objective, and my friends aren't really objective either (they see my pain up close and personal).
8^)
Posted by Dinah on May 6, 2003, at 9:23:30
In reply to Re: Between Forever Therapy Sessions » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on May 5, 2003, at 9:32:13
> I wasn't singled out, the 45 minute sessions are for all of her clients. It was in the last 6 months, I think. She didn't tell me, it was in an agreement I signed in January - so maybe that was when it happened. Someday I'll ask her about it.
She must have found her schedule too tight. I would imagine that it is difficult to take care of everything in ten minutes between sessions. But.... I'd be upset if our sessions were shortened. My therapist does try to play catch up with my appointment time, and they're not always the full fifty minutes. And something truly extraordinary has to be happening to go a second longer than fifty minutes. But I like knowing that the time is there.
>
> She has seen me for extra sessions in the past. I remember the first time I was suicidal she saw me at 5 - that is when she goes home, so she stayed late for me. I've only done extra sessions when it is really an emergency, and she hasn't had a problem with my definition of "emergency". But I know she would not want to see me now unless I needed to go into the hospital (and we've done that over the phone in the past - she was on her cell phone driving back from 6 hours away on a Sunday). She would say that I need to be more independent and handle things on my own rather than depending on her. It still feels like I am doing the hardest therapy work yet by myself (guess that is why she says I'm dependent).Well, I certainly have been impressed with your hard work. It does seem like you're doing some of her work as well. But you should be proud of yourself for what you are doing. My therapist really likes extra sessions as opposed to, say, phone conversations. And he prefers to address things immediately rather than wait. I would be very cynical and say it's because he has extra time to fill, but that isn't fair. He was the same way when he had an almost full time job. He would drag himself in to see me in the evenings, and I know he made a real effort to be available to me.
> I don't know. I am starting to feel a little better, I've been taking the dogs for a walk, blowing last fall's leaves, maybe I'll do some laundry or go grocery shopping today. So she'll take that as a sign of improvement and think that what she's doing is good, sigh.
>
Well, I'm glad you're feeling better. May it long continue.> I think that 6 months ago my description of her wouldn't be all that different from your description of your therapist.
Well, now you've terrified me. :-O (smile)
>
> I really appreciate your insight, I'm not objective, and my friends aren't really objective either (they see my pain up close and personal).
>
> 8^)I really hope your session goes well on Wednesday.
Dinah
Posted by fallsfall on May 8, 2003, at 13:15:34
In reply to Re: Between Forever Therapy Sessions, posted by Dinah on May 6, 2003, at 9:23:30
Things went a little better in therapy this week. For the last week, I've been feeling a little better, more energy, getting a little bit done.
My therapist and I talked about a dream that I had, which had a theme in it of my guessing what something was, her correcting my interpretation, but I don't understand why what she is saying is different. Basically, bad communication. As we went on to the next topic (dependency) she decided that she should verify her understanding of what I was depending on her for. Lo and behold, what she believed (self-concept) was not what I need her for (self-esteem, self evaluation). It was encouraging that she now understands what the issue is.
We talked about the root cause of my dependency - I need her to evaluate (good vs. bad) my self, to determine if I am a worthwhile person. She asked how other people do it. I have no idea. I believe that I have always had someone to tell me if I was OK or not. How do all of you know?
I had to tell her some pretty deep things, and while I was aware that it was risky, I told her everything. That is a major improvement. And it seemed OK.
After I left, she won another point. She was trying to tell me that people aren't Good or Bad - that it is a continuum, but I didn't buy it at the time. After I left, though, I could see the continuum, but there is a point where it goes from gradations of good to gradations of bad (like a D- is passing, but an F is failing). So I see her continuum, but I also see my black and white. Small progress, but none the less progress.
I wasn't nearly as scared to be there or to talk. I hope that this can continue.
Posted by Dinah on May 8, 2003, at 16:52:19
In reply to Re: Forever Therapy, posted by fallsfall on May 8, 2003, at 13:15:34
I love sessions like that. :) I'm glad it went well.
Posted by noa on May 8, 2003, at 19:40:49
In reply to Re: Forever Therapy, posted by fallsfall on May 8, 2003, at 13:15:34
You continue to impress me!
Posted by fallsfall on May 9, 2003, at 5:39:37
In reply to Re: Forever Therapy » fallsfall, posted by noa on May 8, 2003, at 19:40:49
Thank you all for your wonderful support. It has made a real difference. When I was feeling really needy and couldn't see my therapist, you guys were there to help out.
Onward and upward!
Posted by noa on May 21, 2003, at 18:02:57
In reply to Re: Thanks for your support, posted by fallsfall on May 9, 2003, at 5:39:37
FF, how goes it?
Posted by fallsfall on May 22, 2003, at 7:30:58
In reply to Re: Thanks for your support » fallsfall, posted by noa on May 21, 2003, at 18:02:57
Hi, Noa. You are so sweet.
Things are much improved over those days. I am understanding self-esteem better (though mine is still pretty low...). I'm no longer terrified to talk to her. I do continue to freak out thinking that she is mad at me or frustrated. Last session she was quite comforting, and that memory helps me through.
I am doing more. I am taking a cake decorating class (I need to frost a cake this morning so I can decorate it in class this afternoon). I had a date (OMG!), and we are going hiking on Sunday. This is all a bit overwhelming, but if I survive today I can nap a bit tomorrow.
So the crisis is pretty much over, and now I have to deal with getting better.
Thanks for asking.
Posted by noa on May 22, 2003, at 22:59:48
In reply to Re: Thanks for your support » noa, posted by fallsfall on May 22, 2003, at 7:30:58
WOW! Have fun!
Posted by shar on May 27, 2003, at 1:16:34
In reply to Re: Thanks for your support, posted by noa on May 22, 2003, at 22:59:48
Noa,
You are so wonderful. You have such a good spirit and soul, I don't understand how you do it. But....however, please keep on, because we sure need it!Shar
Posted by Ilene on July 10, 2003, at 0:18:19
In reply to Re: Forever therapy » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on April 21, 2003, at 10:22:03
> My therapist still worries that I'm not getting better (and that is a reasonable worry). 18 months ago I did a bad thing. I typed her name in a search engine and collected some information about her (personal) life from there and other sources. I ended up with her address and phone number, email address, her husband and kids' names, her AIM screenname. I put her on my buddy list and watched when she was online. She almost threw me out. I understand why. 2 months ago, I searched on her name again. I read a couple of articles she had written, and then found a committee she was on - and her name was a link. I followed the link, and it was email - with her email address again. I closed the windows and said "I'm not going there".
Okay, so your therapist, who knows that her patients are not exactly stable, leaves her personal data easily accessible on the internet. Then she gets upset because a patient finds publicly-accessible information? It's a little harder than looking up her name in the white pages, but just a little.
I think you are right to find another therapist. One with common sense.
Ilene
Posted by fallsfall on July 10, 2003, at 7:43:26
In reply to Re: Forever therapy » fallsfall, posted by Ilene on July 10, 2003, at 0:18:19
Thanks for your support.
I did have to dig a bit to find the more sensitive information.
I have my 5th session today with my new therapist (whose wife put a vacation picture of the family on the internet - but in some ways that diffuses the "need to know"). I have cancelled all appointments with my old therapist and haven't talked to her in a couple of weeks. It feels much better than I thought it would feel.
Posted by Ilene on July 13, 2003, at 23:28:23
In reply to Re: Forever therapy » Ilene, posted by fallsfall on July 10, 2003, at 7:43:26
> Thanks for your support.
>
> I did have to dig a bit to find the more sensitive information.
>After following the link to the site about cyber-stalking I can see why your therapist got upset. However...she probably has an unlisted phone number, or at the least she doesn't list her home address.
I'm beginning to wonder if psychotherapy is a good idea. (I've never gotten much out of it.) Seems like many people become *more* dependent rather than less.
I also wonder about the motivations of therapists. I think many of them go into psychology because they're a little nutty themselves. To put a more postitive spin on it, they got interested in the field because they wished to understand themselves.
The last therapist I tried wanted me to paste "affirmations" on my bathroom mirror. If an affirmation is any better than a magical incantation, I'll affirm myself into a happy, charming, talented 21-yr-old genius, heiress, and beauty queen. Why go for mere mental health when you can have it all?
Ilene
Posted by fallsfall on July 14, 2003, at 12:25:39
In reply to Re: Forever therapy » fallsfall, posted by Ilene on July 13, 2003, at 23:28:23
> After following the link to the site about cyber-stalking I can see why your therapist got upset. However...she probably has an unlisted phone number, or at the least she doesn't list her home address.
>
She took appropriate measures with everything except her email address. I found the rest because I was creative and unrelenting.> I'm beginning to wonder if psychotherapy is a good idea. (I've never gotten much out of it.) Seems like many people become *more* dependent rather than less.
>
Personally, I was dependent to begin with. But I would say, after 8 1/2 years I am not less dependent.> I also wonder about the motivations of therapists. I think many of them go into psychology because they're a little nutty themselves. To put a more postitive spin on it, they got interested in the field because they wished to understand themselves.
>
No clue! I could never be a therapist - I don't know what "normal" is...> The last therapist I tried wanted me to paste "affirmations" on my bathroom mirror. If an affirmation is any better than a magical incantation, I'll affirm myself into a happy, charming, talented 21-yr-old genius, heiress, and beauty queen. Why go for mere mental health when you can have it all?
>
> IleneReally - go for it! My previous therapist was CBT, so I could see her suggesting affirmations. I learned some good skills from her. My new therapist is Psychodynamic (I don't think he'll suggest affirmations). I intellectualize everything. I'm hoping he can get below the intellectual level and that changes can take place that way.
Posted by Ilene on July 14, 2003, at 13:14:57
In reply to Re: Forever therapy » Ilene, posted by fallsfall on July 14, 2003, at 12:25:39
> She took appropriate measures with everything except her email address. I found the rest because I was creative and unrelenting.
Do tell.
>
> > I'm beginning to wonder if psychotherapy is a good idea. (I've never gotten much out of it.) Seems like many people become *more* dependent rather than less.
> >
> Personally, I was dependent to begin with. But I would say, after 8 1/2 years I am not less dependent.
>
I've come to realize that constant venting doesn't do me much good. I go over the same misery again and again and again and again ....doesn't go away.
> >
> No clue! I could never be a therapist - I don't know what "normal" is...Neither do I. It's a major problem. I have a number of conditions I didn't know were abnormal for decades.
>
>
>My previous therapist was CBT, so I could see her suggesting affirmations. I learned some good skills from her. My new therapist is Psychodynamic (I don't think he'll suggest affirmations). I intellectualize everything. I'm hoping he can get below the intellectual level and that changes can take place that way.What's wrong with intellect? I used to feel defective because of it. Now I recognize my intellect is one of my greatest assets--which is why it pains me when I feel my IQ descending. Not that intelligence has given me a job or anything, but it helps me figure things out.
I used to be able to use self-taught CBT techniques, but I can't anymore. It's like the Dark Side is too strong. Besides, I am bitter about having lost most of my life to severe depression and anxiety. I'm almost 50, and I now recognized I've suffered since I was a small child. "I coulda been a contenda"
And how do you go "below the intellectual level"? Channel the limbic system and unlease your id upon the world? is this another way of blaming the victim?
On the other hand, my emotions are completely out of hand. I also feel like my body and my mind are becoming less and less engaged with each other. I can see it happening, but I haven't found a way to stop it.
I pose a conundrum to my pdoc/therapist. It's a rather strange relationship. I do the diagnosis, she does the prescribing. I should go back to school and get a degree in neuropsychophysiology, if there is such a thing. (Like it would be any more useful than my other degrees.)
She's finally convinced my to see another pdoc. I hate seeing new doctors because they are usually dismissive of my self-take. I get so anxious and defensive that I blow the whole thing.
At least the sweet and patient Dr. R. doesn't get all freaked out when I send her articles that contradict her diagnoses. I think I may have convinced her that DSM-IV is not the Bible.
Rant stoppage.
Each of us is alone in the world.
Ilene
Posted by fallsfall on July 14, 2003, at 15:19:55
In reply to Re: Forever therapy » fallsfall, posted by Ilene on July 14, 2003, at 13:14:57
> She took appropriate measures with everything except her email address. I found the rest because I was creative and unrelenting.
Do tell.Not a chance.
> No clue! I could never be a therapist - I don't know what "normal" is...
Neither do I. It's a major problem. I have a number of conditions I didn't know were abnormal for decades.
>
My new therapist was asking how often I am in contact with my family and asked if I thought that was "normal". I said that was how it was when I was a kid, so it seemed normal to me.Intellect is wonderful, but it does make us see and react to the world differently. I found, in my CBT therapy, that I was pretty good at using the skills (activity scheduling, I use the questioning technique that gets you to look deeper at the problem with my friends all the time - and myself occasionally, recognizing cognitive distortions (but not changing them), my brain is uncooperative, I know there are more). I never did changing your emotions by changing your thoughts. It always seemed like lying to me - Feeling sad. Think happy [no, I'm sad]. Maybe I'm just too stubborn. I won't believe anything just because someone said so - I have to think it through and see if _I_ think it is true.
I have no idea if my new therapist will be able to go below my intellect. I'm hoping that since he'll be dealing with some unconscious material that maybe there will be some kind of advantage. It sounds good when I read about it. This is my idea, nobody else's, so it could very well be total baloney. All I know is that I needed a change, and Psychodynamic is a pretty big change from CBT.
I suffer more from a lack of emotions (or emotions that are suppressed). I have made some progress just by being more aware of them and encouraging myself when I do figure out what is going on. Emotions are weird.
For fun I read psychology books. Not "The Feeling Good Handbook", but "A Primer of Transference-Focused Psychotherapy for the Borderline Patient". When my therapist asked what kind of books I read I said "The kind of books you would read" he didn't believe me until I gave him a title. I've decided that they make me feel optimistic because they are always talking about therapists fixing the problems. I keep looking for my problem in the books, but I haven't really found it yet. I figure if I know enough that I can work alone on the days I don't have therapy, and we'll get done much faster. My old therapist didn't want me reading the books, she thought it made me spend too much effort on therapy and not enough on life. She was probably right. But I did introduce her to DBT (and she is a congitive/behavioral therapist - it is THE treatment of choice for Borderline Personality Disorder currently, and it's based on CBT).
It is very hard to say to a doctor "I understand a lot more than you think I do, so please use the technical words, and let me participate in the decision making". First, they don't believe you. Second, it really challenges their ego. Good luck with your new pdoc.
We're alone, but I really believe that I can find people to share all of my traits with - not in one person, but maybe 10 people combined could make me feel like someone knows what the pieces are like.
When do you see your new pdoc?
Posted by Ilene on July 14, 2003, at 16:10:40
In reply to Re: Forever therapy » Ilene, posted by fallsfall on July 14, 2003, at 15:19:55
> My new therapist was asking how often I am in contact with my family and asked if I thought that was "normal". I said that was how it was when I was a kid, so it seemed normal to me.
"Normal" is a Gaussian distribution, anyway.
>
> Intellect is wonderful, but it does make us see and react to the world differently.From what? Is there a way we're "supposed" to see the world?
I found, in my CBT therapy, that I was pretty good at using the skills (activity scheduling, I use the questioning technique that gets you to look deeper at the problem with my friends all the time - and myself occasionally, recognizing cognitive distortions (but not changing them), my brain is uncooperative, I know there are more).
I can do that too. It doesn't change how I feel anymore.
I never did changing your emotions by changing your thoughts. It always seemed like lying to me - Feeling sad. Think happy [no, I'm sad]. Maybe I'm just too stubborn. I won't believe anything just because someone said so - I have to think it through and see if _I_ think it is true.
I've had bad results doing the things that were supposed to help. Like exercise. I'm skeptical to the point of being a contrarian.
By now I am angry that I have to go through this.
>
> I have no idea if my new therapist will be able to go below my intellect.A sub-intellectual?
I'm hoping that since he'll be dealing with some unconscious material that maybe there will be some kind of advantage. It sounds good when I read about it. This is my idea, nobody else's, so it could very well be total baloney. All I know is that I needed a change, and Psychodynamic is a pretty big change from CBT.
>
> I suffer more from a lack of emotions (or emotions that are suppressed). I have made some progress just by being more aware of them and encouraging myself when I do figure out what is going on. Emotions are weird.Emotions are sure hard to pin down. They are either uncooperative or spitefully mute. Wish they would learn English....Asberger's?
>
> For fun I read psychology books. Not "The Feeling Good Handbook", but "A Primer of Transference-Focused Psychotherapy for the Borderline Patient".I search PubMed and troll the internet for full-text psychiatry and neuropsychopharmacology journal articles.
When my therapist asked what kind of books I read I said "The kind of books you would read" he didn't believe me until I gave him a title. I've decided that they make me feel optimistic because they are always talking about therapists fixing the problems.
There's some literature about evidence-based psychology, but I haven't gone after it. Yet. If I'm going to spend time and money on something I want an idea of how well it works.
I keep looking for my problem in the books, but I haven't really found it yet. I figure if I know enough that I can work alone on the days I don't have therapy, and we'll get done much faster. My old therapist didn't want me reading the books, she thought it made me spend too much effort on therapy and not enough on life.
You mean--you have one?
She was probably right. But I did introduce her to DBT (and she is a congitive/behavioral therapist - it is THE treatment of choice for Borderline Personality Disorder currently, and it's based on CBT).
The dialectical-whatever? Are you borderline?
>
> It is very hard to say to a doctor "I understand a lot more than you think I do, so please use the technical words, and let me participate in the decision making". First, they don't believe you. Second, it really challenges their ego. Good luck with your new pdoc.The ego thing is a real barrier. When I ask, "How do you know that?" they think I am challanging them instead of asking a question because I want to know the answer.
>
> We're alone, but I really believe that I can find people to share all of my traits with - not in one person, but maybe 10 people combined could make me feel like someone knows what the pieces are like.
>
> When do you see your new pdoc?I hope the new pdoc is just supposed to be a consult. I don't know if I will see him until September. I'm going away on Thursday.
I.
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