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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by m3 on November 13, 2002, at 21:33:38
...and client feels pathologized, patronized, and misunderstood. (shocking, I know)
So I've complained about money issues and job issues to my shrink for the past few weeks, but I didn't expect her to come at me tonight with a suggestion I go to Debtors Anonymous. For one thing, my money problems don't have to do with excessive debt or compulsive spending, and for another I feel like it's kind of a strong suggestion, in that I don't feel free to turn it down without getting judged (i.e. I think she will conclude I am in denial). I tried to express some of this to her, but she said something about "holding up a mirror to my difficulty" that gave me the impression she really wasn't hearing me and had already concluded that I need DA.
So I'm wondering if I'm just way overreacting and her suggesting a 12-step program really isn't a big deal. Or if I am in fact in denial and denying that I'm in denial, and I'd better stop there or my head will start to hurt. It just seems like the classic 12-step catch-22 to me: if I deny that I need Whatever Anonymous, then I must really need Whatever Anonymous. Argh!
Has anyone had a similar experience? Was the shrink (or whoever) eventually proven right?
Posted by deets on November 14, 2002, at 11:52:35
In reply to therapist suggests 12-step program, posted by m3 on November 13, 2002, at 21:33:38
When I had been seeing my therapist for about two months, I decided that it was time to discuss some of my issues surrounding alcohol with her. I'm not an alcoholic (& my therapist agrees with me), I do have some alcoholic tendencies. When I first discussed these tendencies with her, she suggested I might give AA a try. I told her that I didn't think that my problems were serious enough to warrant AA and that I thought I would do better discussing it with just her. She couldn't have reacted better. I could tell through her tone that she really believed what I said and that she didn't think that I was in denial. I have since discussed my issues with her and I have gotten my drinking under control and figured out the issues surround my drinking. If your therapist does not truly listen to and a believe what you are saying, maybe you should find a new therapist. However, maybe your therapist just made a mistake in handling this issue and you should that discuss this with her.
Posted by m3 on November 14, 2002, at 19:43:46
In reply to it's happened to me, posted by deets on November 14, 2002, at 11:52:35
I'm definitely going to discuss it with her, and I do hope she understands that I'm feeling misunderstood. I was surprised by this because I've been seeing her for over two years now. I guess I thought she understood how I feel about 12-step programs and that I don't think my money issues would be helped by one. Again, though, I'll take it up with her. If she decides I'm in denial I'll get a second (professional) opinion, and possibly switch to a new therapist.
Posted by Dinah on November 15, 2002, at 8:54:30
In reply to Re: it's happened to me, posted by m3 on November 14, 2002, at 19:43:46
> If she decides I'm in denial I'll get a second (professional) opinion, and possibly switch to a new therapist.
Can you do that so easily? I'm impressed. My therapist would have to do something outrageously horribly inappropriate for me to voluntarily leave him. Sigh. I'm just too attached.
Posted by deets on November 15, 2002, at 12:52:04
In reply to therapist suggests 12-step program, posted by m3 on November 13, 2002, at 21:33:38
m3, it sounds like you're taking the right steps! Good for you!
Dinah, I don't think you're too attatched. A lot of us are attatched to our therapists. I can't imagine leaving mine.
Posted by mair on November 16, 2002, at 23:30:24
In reply to therapist suggests 12-step program, posted by m3 on November 13, 2002, at 21:33:38
I know what you're saying about the Catch 22. Years ago I had a therapist who told me (after I hadn't seen him for very long) that I had a drinking problem. It was a laughable suggestion - My husband has long suspected that alcohol disappears from a glass faster by evaporation than it does by my drinking. Anyway, I denied it and realized that I was in the same Catch 22 you are in - since denial is such a symptom, you sort of can't win. Just to prove to him the folly of his suggestion, I just abruptly quit drinking for awhile, which I could easily do since I had no addiction problem to begin with.
I sort of resented being in this position with him. I hope you fare better trying to work this issue out with your therapist.
Mair
Posted by m3 on November 19, 2002, at 19:35:07
In reply to Re: therapist suggests 12-step program » m3, posted by mair on November 16, 2002, at 23:30:24
I tried to post to this thread yesterday, but apparently it didn't work. I did talk to my therapist some about this issue, but it was only the last five minutes or so of the session. The rest of the session had been spent discussing a drama-filled email exchange with my mom, which I really needed to talk about. In the short time that we did talk, she repeated that she thinks of 12-step programs as free community resources with "tools" (not sure what she means by this) that could help. I told her I still felt like it was a loaded suggestion, and that I wasn't reassured that she's not attached to the idea.
So anyway, maybe more discussion next week, although the email exchange continues and may take up most of next session also.
Thanks for messages of support, Dinah, deets, mair. It's good to hear I'm not the only one who's run across this.
Posted by Mark H. on November 20, 2002, at 19:18:14
In reply to therapist suggests 12-step program, posted by m3 on November 13, 2002, at 21:33:38
M3,
In the situation you describe, I would ask my therapist, "Have 12-step programs worked for you personally, and if so, would you be comfortable telling me a little about your experience with them?"
And, "What do you think can be gained from participating in a 12-step program that I cannot get privately in therapy with you?"
Then I would listen to the answers with an open mind. The 12-step programs aren't for everyone, but they have helped a lot of people. At this point, what you need is more information so you can make an informed decision.
Best wishes,
Mark H.
Posted by Minx on November 21, 2002, at 9:15:11
In reply to therapist suggests 12-step program, posted by m3 on November 13, 2002, at 21:33:38
I am in a 12-step program, and it has helped me tremendously. It has been a great augmentation (but not replacement) to my therapy.
I can't speak for all the programs, but I believe that they are all based on peer-supported behavior analysis and change. I get support from people who are dealing with the same issues I am, who have been through similar situations, and can give me suggestions of what has worked for them.
That's different than my therapy. My therapist works with me one on one, but it's really objective work (therapist outside looking in). He doesn't have the same problems I do, and can't always really relate with how I feel, and how I see things.
The 12-step work is a lot more subjective, to me. Most of the people share my issues, my feelings and my view of the world. (If we didn't have the same problems, we wouldn't be there...) And they can talk with me in a way my therapist can't. They can understand a little more sometimes.Might be worth a try. There's no commitment - either you show up or you don't. I would suggest trying more than one meeting - my first one felt really weird, 'cause I didn't have a clue what was going on. It took me a few before I started to get the hang of it, and see how it all worked.
I just wanted to share my experience...but the programs aren't for everybody, or every problem. You know yourself and your issues better than anybody else, and if it ain't broke - then it don't need fixin'!
Posted by Medusa on November 21, 2002, at 14:15:34
In reply to therapist suggests 12-step program, posted by m3 on November 13, 2002, at 21:33:38
What Mark said.
And a view on DA ... I went to meetings when I lived in a different city, and it's not like other 12-step programs. The name is misleading - they also deal with things like underearning, misallocation of resources (such as spending money on CDs instead of paying your electricity bill), "time debting", insufficient saving and other stuff. The group I attended was hard-core and used "the tools" pretty stringently. Some of the "tools" have scary names. I winced when I was told I needed "a pressure group meeting", but they're meant to take pressure off.
So while pushing back on your therapist, think about secretly scouting a few meetings. I've been to some loony ones in cities other than one I mention above. If the group is full of 12-step-junkies (addicted to groups), find a different group ... maybe by asking what meetings the loonies would avoid. Usually they'll say "oh, Saturday afternoon at the VFW is a bunch of uptights", which is a pretty good indication you won't be overwhelmed with gourd-talk and whatever else people find to waste time with.
I should see if there are any meetings around where I'm living now ...
Posted by jane d on November 28, 2002, at 10:03:50
In reply to Re: therapist suggests 12-step program » m3, posted by Medusa on November 21, 2002, at 14:15:34
> What Mark said.
>
> And a view on DA ... I went to meetings when I lived in a different city, and it's not like other 12-step programs. The name is misleading - they also deal with things like underearning, misallocation of resources (such as spending money on CDs instead of paying your electricity bill), "time debting", insufficient saving and other stuff. The group I attended was hard-core and used "the tools" pretty stringently. Some of the "tools" have scary names. I winced when I was told I needed "a pressure group meeting", but they're meant to take pressure off.
>
> So while pushing back on your therapist, think about secretly scouting a few meetings. I've been to some loony ones in cities other than one I mention above. If the group is full of 12-step-junkies (addicted to groups), find a different group ... maybe by asking what meetings the loonies would avoid. Usually they'll say "oh, Saturday afternoon at the VFW is a bunch of uptights", which is a pretty good indication you won't be overwhelmed with gourd-talk and whatever else people find to waste time with.Medusa,
I like your approach to finding an acceptable meeting. I'll remember it. Would you mind explaining a little more about how the good groups of Debtors Anonymous work to someone who has no 12 step experience? For example, what are "the tools"? Time debting? How can they take pressure off? Any information you, or anyone else, can give me would be very much appreciated.Jane
Posted by Phil on November 28, 2002, at 19:24:57
In reply to Debtors anonymous questions » Medusa, posted by jane d on November 28, 2002, at 10:03:50
Posted by Ms. Jones on December 9, 2002, at 8:08:28
In reply to Re: Step right up-12 step groups home pages, posted by Phil on November 28, 2002, at 19:24:57
Hi, I'm new to this message board but I had to laugh when I was reading the messages because I'm in the exact opposite situation. I'm in a 12 Step Recovery program but I think a little therapy is in order but I don't want to go. I have never felt a connection to a therapist before and I don't remember if I ever got anything out of it. So many people I know DO go and it helps them so much. I have things, though, that at this time my 12 Step group is not responsible for helping me with. It has nothing to do with my recovery, in other words. I have applied the principles of my group to this particular problem I'm having and it's just not cutting it. I'm all for therapy but I can't bring myself to get started, and I don't know whom to get started with. But as for the 12 Step group I'm involved with, it has saved my life. I don't know where I would be without it. But had someone told me I needed it, I wouldn't have listened. I don't think that's how things work with mental health (an opinion). Something has to be objectionable to ME before I will address it but at the same time, I have to remain open-minded, which I am not where going into therapy is concerned and I don't know why exactly.
This is the end of the thread.
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