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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Phil on August 3, 2009, at 18:07:00
In reply to america in afghanistan, posted by manic666 on August 3, 2009, at 13:41:36
Not true bro. Give me links to support your. statements
America lost 60,000 men in WW2 to save everyones #sses over there and all over Europe.
You would all be speaking German right now.
There's no way the Brits are leading the charge there and if you knew anything about this war, you'd know there is no front line. Troops are scattered everywhere.
My mom willed my brothers and I a fraction of oil production from wells. In the 70's ans 80's she would get checks for $800 a month.
My bros and I get one check a year. How much money? Our biggest check was $45.
If North Korea invaded the UK tomorrow, we would have more troops there than you guys would and our Marines would take the front.
We're trying to crush the Taliban because they may not hit us next, it may well be you.
Lets see the final tally of ddead in Afghanistan if its ever over. Your troops dead will be miniscule to ours.
How do I know? Because it's always that way.
Mistakes happen in wars. We've killed many of our own troops.
Our country has a lot of problens but I'm an American and will not stand by and hear us trashed by facts pulled out of thin air.
Peace
There is millions of barrels in the Rocky mountains but we can't get to it.
Posted by Justherself54 on August 3, 2009, at 18:07:00
In reply to Re: america in afghanistan » manic666, posted by Phil on August 3, 2009, at 14:46:00
It's great to be patriotic. Here are some stats:
http://www.icasualties.org/oef/
Just sayin'.
Posted by seldomseen on August 3, 2009, at 18:07:00
In reply to Re: america in afghanistan, posted by Justherself54 on August 3, 2009, at 15:51:01
Yeah, I think this one graphic is very telling regarding US deaths vs coalition deaths.
http://www.icasualties.org/OEF/ByNationality.aspx
It's all so sad for me.
Posted by seldomseen on August 3, 2009, at 18:07:00
In reply to america in afghanistan, posted by manic666 on August 3, 2009, at 13:41:36
Manic,
I respect and share the loss of your countrymen and women. In my mind, the Brits are like family. We all have lost so much.However, I really don't know what to make of the statement that we started this war. In fact, this is something I've thought about before. I mean the US was attacked and close to 3000 people were killed. It's actually hard to find someone who doesn't at least know someone that was killed, either at the pentagon, the world trade centers or in the flight that flew into the ground.
On one hand, I contend that this war was brought to us, but it could have been brought to anyone. The problem with that fact is, it's hard to clearly say who brought it to us. It's not like some sovereign nation declared war and attacked. In my opinion, the lines here are very blurred and declarations are murky at best.
I wish it would come to a conclusion of some sort, not for any political reason, but I am weary of more people dying.
Again, sorry for the loss of your brothers and sisters in the UK.
Seldom
Posted by Justherself54 on August 3, 2009, at 18:07:00
In reply to Re: america in afghanistan, posted by seldomseen on August 3, 2009, at 16:11:35
Yes, it is sad. Along with the US, the UK and Canada are the hardest hit. I'm Canadian and it's hard to see our young men and women losing their lives in a situation that could drag on for years and years.
I hope this thread doesn't get ugly. Babble isn't the best place to get into really heated debates on subjects as complex as this one.
I hope cooler heads prevail.
Peace
Posted by Sigismund on August 3, 2009, at 19:38:25
In reply to Re: america in afghanistan » manic666, posted by Phil on August 3, 2009, at 18:07:00
>America lost 60,000 men in WW2 to save everyones #sses over there and all over Europe.
The soviet army ran on American trucks and American food fed the citizens of the USSR, but it was the soviets who, with 8 million military dead defeated the Germans.
It is the greatest pity that advantage was not taken, while it would have borne fruit, of the window of opportunity, open for maybe even years in Afghanistan. Now the choices are much harder.
Posted by Sigismund on August 3, 2009, at 20:25:56
In reply to Re: america in afghanistan, posted by seldomseen on August 3, 2009, at 18:07:00
I would feel less sad if there was more attention paid to Iraqi deaths, which could be shown by counting them.
I heard the other day that since the end of WWII, the US has been involved in wars more frequently than it has not, on a day by day count.
If I was an American I'd be thinking 'Why?' and wondering whether I'd vote for Ron Paul.
Posted by manic666 on August 4, 2009, at 6:26:58
In reply to Re: america in afghanistan, posted by Sigismund on August 3, 2009, at 20:25:56
mmmmmmmmm good im in on this one sorry phil second world war an
america came in after hanging its *rs* ,for years , pearl harbour made your mind up,sig russia defeated the germans because they were left to die in stalingrad by hitler in mid winter , if he had atack in the summer like his cenerals wanted he would have wiped them out,all the german armor froze as did most of the men.remind me again of a war you have started an won .phil peal harbour if you carriers hadnt been out at sea when the attack took place you would be speaking japanies. the planes on the carriers distroyed the j*p fleet a lucky ascape,now as for your involvment ,,,,,,,we had already won the battle in the air an desert,all but wiped out the luthwaffer, i have the attual footage of you bomers helping us do bomding raids on germany when the germans had no airfoce left.i have atcual footage of formation american bommers flying at 2 levels , droping there bomb load on there own planes in the lower formation,if you want to see all this get /the world at war dvds/ uncut.i felt for your sailors in the wake of the camakazi wrong spelling. i have footage os 1 zero j*p plane sinking a carrier,the carrier decks were made of wood with slits for air, a major flaw as aviation fuel fell through the deck to the inside of the ship,the brit carriers had metal deck, s , round 1 to us brits next question please
Posted by seldomseen on August 4, 2009, at 7:14:37
In reply to Re: america in afghanistan, posted by manic666 on August 4, 2009, at 6:26:58
Alright, I'm going to weigh in on this (very very carefully). It is my opinion, and just my opinion, that Britain would have never fallen to the Hitler Germany. I've read extensively on this subject and with Churchill at the healm and the manner in which Germany was launching the assault, I think the UK would have remained sovereign. I don't know if there would have been much of a country left. But the Brits would have rebuilt, just as they did after the bombings. Of course, given time, the Germans under Hitler likely would have changed their assault tactic, or succeeded in land invasion, but that is just speculation.
However, without the influx of allied troops from the US, I think the entire face of Europe likely would have been changed forever. Clearly Hitler's germany would have been repelled from Russia (who suffered *profound* civilan and military losses in this war), but most of Europe had fallen.
I think it is important for us all to consider the magnitude of these military and civilian deaths in the wake of WW2. Countries around the world lost millions of their finest young men. It was a horrible horrible time in the history of the world on so many levels - the horror of which I find difficult to gauge.
As the last of the surviving veterans on all fronts of the war are now leaving us, the living history of what they went through demands respect I think. I think we should continue to learn from it and not use it as fodder for argument. We ended up all in it together.
Just my thoughts.
Seldom.
Posted by Kath on August 4, 2009, at 11:10:32
In reply to Re: america in afghanistan, posted by Justherself54 on August 3, 2009, at 18:07:00
To this:
> Yes, it is sad. Along with the US, the UK and Canada are the hardest hit. I'm Canadian and it's hard to see our young men and women losing their lives in a situation that could drag on for years and years.
>
> I hope this thread doesn't get ugly. Babble isn't the best place to get into really heated debates on subjects as complex as this one.
>
> I hope cooler heads prevail.
>
> Peace
Posted by manic666 on August 4, 2009, at 13:59:19
In reply to Re: america in afghanistan, posted by manic666 on August 4, 2009, at 6:26:58
just because we are mentally ill dont mean we carnt debate, the only time i get answered is when i piss you off,i dont give a flying f*ck about triggers , i have lived this sh*t all my life an i say what i like , nothing more hurts me , phil an me we had a heated scrap but i love an admire him .he knows it wernt personal.im just stateing my opinion, i write nomal threads like i asked for advice on a herb thread witch may have benifited s few people but was egnored or took the piss out of.you have opinions i have mine .just to set this to bed if your not up for it america has 48,250 TROOPS , AND IN 8 YEARS HAVE AWARDED /6 / MEDALS OF HONOR,BRITIAN HAS 9,000 TROOPS AN HAVE /28/ MILLATORY GROSS,S.AN THE SECOND WORLD WAR IF GERMANY HAD DECLARED WAR ON JAPAN AMERICA WOULD HAVE JIONED FORCES WITH GERMANY , that is well documented , your balls up in iraq has now doubled the taliban with iraqy freedom fighters. take the numbers of american troops an the number of british troops, now im not good at maths but i think in percentige we have lost more men,an yes phil my man there is a front line its just america,s never been on it.you can only create front lines when you move forward.
Posted by Sigismund on August 4, 2009, at 15:39:46
In reply to Re: america in afghanistan » manic666, posted by seldomseen on August 4, 2009, at 7:14:37
>It is my opinion, and just my opinion, that Britain would have never fallen to the Hitler Germany.
Germany was not equipped for an invasion of the UK because Hitler had never intended it.
The more likely prospect is the Munich angle. What if, somehow or other, Hitler had been able to come to some kind of agreement with the western powers to give him a free hand in the east?
Or perhaps if Japan could have been persuaded to attack from the east in 1941? All one can anticipate out of that possibility is endless guerrilla war, and likely enough an eventual triumph of communism out of the ethical debacle of the west.Stalin's daughter does remember him saying
'Ach. With the Germans we would have been unbeatable.'Hey, this reminds me of therapy. You guys should come round here more often.
Posted by manic666 on August 5, 2009, at 6:24:47
In reply to Re: america in afghanistan, posted by Sigismund on August 4, 2009, at 15:39:46
you got to admit the german army were far superior to any other , i mean to get right to the gates of moscow an be stopped by hitler was grazy behond belief,when the german troops surouded stalingrad to starve the russians to death ,the winter came an the river tiger froze alowing food into the city . fierce hand to had fighting in staligrad an the germans trapped with no supplies or winter cloths,sealed there fate hitler refused to let them withdraw an said they must fight an die like true germans, i have footage of russians stripping the germans of cloths a hoseing water on them to freeze to death,if you ever get the chance buy the dvd set of the world at war/ second war narratored by sir lawrance olivia, bad spelling im afraid, the actual footage is amazeing an in coulor in places.when the panzers advanced on russia the russian soldgiers curled in balls a waited to be shot the germans hated there cowardis, i was only when starlin unleashes his siberian troops in winter an the germans were starvein an freezind the gained a retreat,the russians had a fuel that didnt freeze, but who can forget the summer tank battle were every russian tanks was distroyed with simplisaty
Posted by seldomseen on August 5, 2009, at 9:46:10
In reply to Re: america in afghanistan, posted by manic666 on August 4, 2009, at 13:59:19
I agree. Just because we are mentally ill doesn't mean we can't debate, as long as we are respectful to each other.
In any case, I'm sure you don't need me to tell you that we are all entitled to our opinions.
I think you and I, at least, agree on far more than we disagree.
Seldom
Posted by seldomseen on August 5, 2009, at 10:14:08
In reply to Re: america in afghanistan, posted by Sigismund on August 4, 2009, at 15:39:46
Personally, I'm fascinated by Churchill, or at least I was. I'm kind of into Freud now (who by the way sucessfully fled Hitler's army).
I think Churchill was a truly remarkable human being. I think partly because of his humor, but overall I find him and his life quite amazing.
im Platz meines Lebens vielleicht?
Freud is another issue entirely.
Posted by manic666 on August 5, 2009, at 12:36:53
In reply to Re: america in afghanistan » Sigismund, posted by seldomseen on August 5, 2009, at 10:14:08
seldomseen, did you no churchill suffer greatly with depression
Posted by manic666 on August 5, 2009, at 13:41:54
In reply to america in afghanistan, posted by manic666 on August 3, 2009, at 18:06:57
<embed src="ht<div style="text-align: center; margin-left: auto; visibility:visible; margin-right: auto; width:450px;"> <object width="435" height="270"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.profileplaylist.net/mc/mp3player_new.swf"></param> <param name="allowscriptaccess" value="never"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <param name="flashvars" value="config=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.indimusic.us%2Fext%2Fpc%2Fconfig_green.xml&mywidth=435&myheight=270&playlist_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.indimusic.us%2Floadplaylist.php%3Fplaylist%3D38841620%26t%3D1249496108&wid=os"></param> <embed style="width:435px; visibility:visible; height:270px;" allowScriptAccess="never" src="http://www.profileplaylist.net/mc/mp3player_new.swf" flashvars="config=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.indimusic.us%2Fext%2Fpc%2Fconfig_green.xml&mywidth=435&myheight=270&playlist_url=http://www.indimusic.us/loadplaylist.php?playlist=38841620&t=1249496108&wid=os" width="435" height="270" name="mp3player" wmode="transparent" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" border="0"/> </object> <br/> <a href="http://www.profileplaylist.net"><img src="http://www.profileplaylist.net/mc/images/create_green.jpg" border="0" alt="Get a playlist!"/></a> <a href="http://www.mysocialgroup.com/standalone/38841620" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.profileplaylist.net/mc/images/launch_green.jpg" border="0" alt="Standalone player"/></a> <a href="http://www.mysocialgroup.com/download/38841620"><img src="http://www.profileplaylist.net/mc/images/get_green.jpg" border="0" alt="Get Ringtones"/></a> </div>tp://www.metacafe.com/fplayer/1467935/the_world_at_war.swf" width="400" height="345" wmode="transparent" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowFullScreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" name="Metacafe_1467935"> </embed><br><font size = 1><a href="http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1467935/the_world_at_war/">The World at War</a> - <a href="http://www.metacafe.com/">More amazing videos are a click away</a></font>
Posted by manic666 on August 5, 2009, at 13:49:42
In reply to Re: america in afghanistan, posted by manic666 on August 5, 2009, at 13:41:54
the link to the war vid is right at the near the bottom world at war, do yourself,s a favour an buy the box set its riveting , an the narratting is the superb
Posted by seldomseen on August 5, 2009, at 14:46:05
In reply to seldemseen, posted by manic666 on August 5, 2009, at 12:36:53
I think depression was largely the source of his wisdom actually.
Peace
S
Posted by Sigismund on August 5, 2009, at 15:11:14
In reply to Re: america in afghanistan » Sigismund, posted by seldomseen on August 5, 2009, at 10:14:08
>Personally, I'm fascinated by Churchill, or at least I was.
Same here
>I'm kind of into Freud now (who by the way sucessfully fled Hitler's army).
But not his sisters, it pains me to say.
>I think Churchill was a truly remarkable human being. I think partly because of his humor, but overall I find him and his life quite amazing.
Hitler misjudged him, knowing only weak oponenents before him . The best he could do was lament ...this souse (Churchill). I forget what he called Roosevelt. Probably syphyllitic.
Posted by Sigismund on August 5, 2009, at 15:30:18
In reply to sigi, posted by manic666 on August 5, 2009, at 6:24:47
Manic, people are here, for the first time in months. How pleasant it is to be able to chat.
Around the 50th anniversary of the end of WWII there were a number of programs I saw. Reading about Europe from 1900 to 1950 seemed a good way of finding out about the human project and putting myself in a position to have a good long think about it. I didn't have much trouble putting myself in the mental space of a devoted Nazi or communist. I particularly liked films from the former USSR about the German occupation....I saw one from Byelorussia, just of the fate of one village and its inhabitants, and then at the end there was a list of all the villages and towns destroyed. It's a remarkable thing that two ideologies that both sought human triumph (or whatever the f*ck it was they sought, part from destruction) should have managed to kill the better part of 50 million people. There are 2 little bits of trivia about Stalin just hanging around my consciousness...the first was that he tried to find a way of breeding humans with apes to get a reliable work force. The second was when a boatload of prisoners from Vladivostok to Magadan maybe rioted. The captain poured water below decks and they arrived as blocks of ice.
What a piece of work is man.
Posted by Sigismund on August 5, 2009, at 15:39:34
In reply to Re: seldemseen, posted by seldomseen on August 5, 2009, at 14:46:05
>I think depression was largely the source of his wisdom actually.
Quite right.
It perhaps enabled him to have imagination enough to intuitively grasp Hitler. More reasonable rational humane not-terribly-brave people naturally failed. Lukacs (John not George) is an English (I think) historian who has spent a number of books writing about Churchill and his imaginative response to Hitler. There is "The Duel" and "Five Days in London, May 1940".
Posted by manic666 on August 6, 2009, at 3:27:04
In reply to Re: seldemseen, posted by Sigismund on August 5, 2009, at 15:39:34
i think the worst on the vids is when the russians pushed the germans back , an came across the ethnic clensing left by the ss as the germans had pushed forward the ss came behind a killed every young male regardless of age an hung them out to freeze , the russian found this an spurd them on ,thats why they let them into german cities to rape an abuse . it was just revenge at its worst
Posted by seldomseen on August 6, 2009, at 9:16:54
In reply to Re: seldemseen, posted by Sigismund on August 5, 2009, at 15:39:34
I may be alone in this, but I'm not sure how much the world as we know it today actually owes to Churchill.
He did not cave, despite his war cabinet, he did not defer to Hitler, he kept himself and his country together until the reinforcements came. It must have gotten under every bit of Hitler's skin to come across such a stalwart.
He rallied his country, tolerated it being bombed but would not give up. He and his country met Hitler head on.
I've been to his house in England.
After the Freud era dies down I will read the books you suggested.
You know Churchill was half American ;) although one might say it was the Brit in him that was his better half (is there a difference really?).
S
Posted by manic666 on August 6, 2009, at 12:43:51
In reply to america in afghanistan, posted by manic666 on August 3, 2009, at 18:06:57
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008WQ9Y/km-21/ref=nosim?gclid=CJ__0OHHj5wCFZkA4wodOHcjYA the world at war is not in book form it is on dvd 11 disc,s what may interest you it cover,s the hole pacific campain an has all the uncut kamikaze no one has seen till the serise, how a lot of sailor,s jumped in the sea to there death ,distroyed by the frustration of being powerless to fight the kamikaze pilots .you see there faces as they fly by the ships.
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