![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 9 to 33 of 68. Go back in thread:
Posted by Tomatheus on August 8, 2006, at 10:06:57
In reply to Re: cost of drugs » kylenn, posted by Tomatheus on August 5, 2006, at 23:11:17
> You've definitely demonstrated your ability to lecture others about the virtues of personal responsibility?
I meant to end that sentence with a period instead of a question mark. I'm not much of a Freudian, but perhaps it was a "Freudian slip" on my part.
Tomatheus
Posted by notfred on August 8, 2006, at 10:06:57
In reply to cost of drugs, posted by kylenn on August 4, 2006, at 21:26:37
> Family Medicine doctors get paid squat, just to let you know, and I am barely making ends meet. And I live sparsely.
You do not sound like any doc I know.
Posted by Phillipa on August 8, 2006, at 10:06:58
In reply to Oops, posted by Tomatheus on August 5, 2006, at 23:19:12
By the way Dr. Bob the moderator of Babble or the deputies do not put up with people being uncivil to others. You might want to mull this over. Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on August 8, 2006, at 10:06:58
In reply to Re Kenlenn » Tomatheus, posted by Phillipa on August 5, 2006, at 23:42:22
Above message for Kylenn only. Sorry I mispelled your name. Must be my lack of concentration . Phillipa
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on August 8, 2006, at 10:06:58
In reply to Re: cost of drugs, posted by kylenn on August 5, 2006, at 16:54:05
Hello kylenn.
I don't really know what to say about your post. I'm sorry I seem to have hit a sore spot with you. We just have differing opinions I guess. I've just been bought up on European values, particulary Scandivian values (in fact I'm moving to Finland in September) which as you may or may not be aware of, have the best welfare states in the world. As such, it is very hard for me to comprehend how it is in America. I am geniunely shocked to find out that you have to pay so much for your meds, or that your healthcare is not free, or that you have to pay $30,000 in college tuition. These things cost next to nothing here in the UK, and in other European countries also.
For instance, it is actually against the law in Finland to charge any amount of money for education, including college - yes thats right, they have no fees for university in Finland including medicine and law, and that applies to foreign students studying there too. But then, we pay alot more tax. So when I hear about college tuition in the states costing, say, $30,000/year, I find it unbelieveable!
I still do think that healthcare is a basic human right and should be free (or at least affordable) to everyone, we'll have to disagree on that one.
Following on from that, you say that therefore food, sheltar, water etc should be free because they are basic human rights too. Well they are basic human rights, at least here in the UK.
Its illegal, for instance, for a water company to cut off a persons water supply, even if they haven't paid their bills. For that matter, I pay about $10/month for water/sewage. We have systems in place here which will guarantee that your rent will be paid, if, for example, you lose your job/are ill/etc. Supermarket food is not so expensive here. It costs maybe $1 for a loaf of bread. If people have problems paying private rent, we have social housing here.
I really don't mind paying tax to support these things because I know that they are there if I ever need them. I don't think we should be so naive to suppose that we will always have a good job, we will always have a roof over our heads. Sometimes really unfortuate things can happen to us through no fault of our own.
I also think its a question of equalness, of trying to, at least, level the playing field for everyone. You give me the impression that all you need to do to succeed in life is to work hard. Okay fair enough. But that doesn't take into account intrinstic factors that are beyond our control. Say, for instance, you are not very bright, pretty low IQ actually. Thats not your fault surely? So you can work your *ss off, say cleaning streets or whatever. You could be doing the very best you can, and still earn pittance.
But its not your fault - so then, who will pay for your expensive healthcare when you get ill? You're obviously earning pittance (you don't have a national minimum wage do you? Here in the UK its set to around $9/hour), so you can't save for unforeseeable things in the future like illness, diasters, or even things like college. But yet, you're working your *ss off, you're providing a valuable service to the community in cleaning the steets. Is that fair then, that you get penalised?
Is it fair that you, kylenn, get penalised with medication costs beyond your means, because you suffer from a condition that is no fault of your own?? Things like free healthcare are about protecting the most vunerable people in society. Its not about the well-off paying taxes. Its about the much less fortunate. Leveling the playing field, so that you have access to the same basic services as the rich.
Do you kinda get what I mean? I don't want to quibble over the finer points of my post. We have totally differing perspectives. I mean, I've grown up not knowing anything different, I've always assumed healthcare and things like that to be free and to have a pretty good welfare state in place. I get the feeling that you don't think its the job of the state to support disadvantaged people, but thats how it is here in the UK/Finland (the two European countries I know they most). I'm not entirely clear on who you think will support disadvantaged people.
We'll just have to agree to disagree, no hard feeling, eh.
Kind regards
Meri
Posted by kylenn on August 8, 2006, at 10:06:58
In reply to Re: cost of drugs Kylenn » kylenn, posted by Phillipa on August 5, 2006, at 22:50:22
Thanks for the offer and I agree with you on both points.
Yes, I am bitter and yes, two depressed people would make a good team
Posted by kylenn on August 8, 2006, at 10:06:58
In reply to Re: cost of drugs » kylenn, posted by Tomatheus on August 5, 2006, at 23:11:17
Again, my point has been completely missed. Am I really speaking that far over your head?
Obviously, (and I did not leave this detail out, I just didn't repeat it over and over, hoping stating the obvious once would be enough)
there are those who CANNOT work; I am merely pointing out that there are MANY who can, but prefer to take the easy (and dishonest) way out.
I know this to be true. I don't know the actual percentages, and I am certainly not saying the problem lies only in the community of those with mental illness. Quite the opposite, most of those, in my experience, are NOT claiming a mental illness as the reason for their disability; pain is a much easier thing to embellish, and more socially acceptable.
Posted by kylenn on August 8, 2006, at 10:06:59
In reply to Re: cost of drugs, posted by notfred on August 5, 2006, at 23:37:10
Really? and just how many that you know have divulged their true net worth?
I lived a life that others would have thought luxurious until that house of cards crashed around me.
I lived beyond my means on credit, and, just guessing, but I bet I know more docs than you do.
Posted by kylenn on August 8, 2006, at 10:06:59
In reply to Re Kenlenn » Tomatheus, posted by Phillipa on August 5, 2006, at 23:42:22
Look back at the posts; who is being uncivil?
I am stating an opinion aimed at no one in particular.
The responses, as I expected, are hardly civil, and are pointed DIRECTLY at me.
I guess I touched a nerve.
I knew I would.
I want people to open their eyes.
Posted by Phillipa on August 8, 2006, at 10:07:00
In reply to Re: cost of drugs, posted by kylenn on August 6, 2006, at 10:50:06
But I believe you did insinuate the mentally ill when you spoke of the girl and her boyfriend in the ER. Looks can be deceiving. My husband says no one call see outwardly that I'm anxious and depressed I've just learned in l0 years to be a good actress. And then I crumple when out of the eyes of others. Phillipa
Posted by kylenn on August 8, 2006, at 10:07:01
In reply to Re: cost of drugs » kylenn, posted by Meri-Tuuli on August 6, 2006, at 5:20:47
Thanks, the most intelligent reply yet!!!
You make many valid points. Even playing field; I am all for that.
I think the big problem in this country may just be in the way that we are taxed; it creates a weird double standard that can't help but foster bitterness among the most highly taxed, which happens to be the upper middle class (I think)
(Admittedly, not sure, I just feel so victimized and literally everyone I talk to feels the same way if they are in a similar situation.)
Basically, I am against the income tax.
If there were a Federal Sales Tax to replace the income tax, it would truly be a level playing field.
Instead of penalizing earnings, penalize frivolous spending. Food, water, electricity, and medical care would be tax free and perhaps even universally available, but things like second homes, luxury cars (say any car over a certain price, like $25,000), yachts (who needs those?)
extravagant jewelry, Disneyworld tickets, first class air fare, cigarettes, liquor, hopefully you get my point.
And make the rules for qualifying for "free" care be less fuzzy. Normally, I am big into grayness, but not when it comes to free money. The truly needy should be taken care of by the society.
And the truly hardworking should not be unduly burdened by the cost.
Do you realize that in this country there is a HUGE black market economy? It has arisen out of a need since the income tax system is so unfair.
When the income tax was initiated, early in the 20th century, it was meant to be a temporary stop-gap measure to cover a shortage in federal funds. It was never supposed to go over 5%, and it was meant to expire after 5 years.
Well, as usual, good intentions.
The criminal community runs their business tax free. A drug kingpin, all the way down to his street corner pushers, make all the money they make, and it is tax free.
If we could do away with taxing the honest, hard-working people, and tax spending, especially for non-essential items, and a sin tax for booze, tobacco, gambling profits, and while we are at it, prostitution and marijuana should be legaized, regulated, and TAXED. And under a fair tax, they would be taxed more heavily since they are actually detrimental to personal health and well-being, as well as detrimental to families and society.
In my idea, the federal tax system would tax spending in levels:
essentials would be tax-free
non-essentials (anything from potted plants to make-up) would be taxed at 10%
luxuries would be taxed at a higher rate, say 20%
sins would be taxed even higher, say 30%
This would more than make up for doing away with the federal income tax, and it would be way, way more fair.
The only people that would (or should) be opposed to it are the people that would be hit hardest--the very rich and the criminal element.
The very poor should not be affected since essentials would remain tax free.
But, it is the very rich that control the congress. So, unless there is a loud and unified voice from the electorate, things will remain status quo, and unfair.
Then, the workers that currently are paid "under the table" would suddenly not be law-breakers.
And overtime would truly be rewarding financially.
And, yes, things that may be gifts of God would be more lucrative if used properly (studying and working hard).
Incidentally, people like movie stars and pro-football players who have gifts from God or from Aaron Spelling, take your pick, (and that comes from the it's not what you know, it's who you know school of thought and is not meant as a personal slight of Mr. Spelling--disclaimer placed for the benefit of those who need more of an explanation than just me being cute)
would pay more for their mink stoles and presidential suites at the Four Seasons, private jets and top shelf champagne!I know I would be less bitter about my tax dollars going towards the undeserving if I knew that I really was on a level playing field.
Just a thought.
Posted by kylenn on August 8, 2006, at 10:07:01
In reply to Re: cost of drugs » kylenn, posted by Phillipa on August 6, 2006, at 11:22:22
I do not believe that the girl in the ER or her robust and muscular boyfriend would qualify, by even the most lax rules, as 100% disabled.
She was completely relaxed and lucid, and being in a hospital, she did not need to act.And by the way,
I consider myself to be an Oscar Quality actress
Posted by Phillipa on August 8, 2006, at 10:07:02
In reply to Re: cost of drugs, posted by kylenn on August 6, 2006, at 10:52:15
I don't believe in using my credit cards. I live on my diability. Before I was ill my husband and I invested in real estate and are living off the proceeds of that. By investing I mean buying small houses in good locations and when we sold them making a profit. We lived at the beach for two years. A lot I saw was 45,000. Less than a year later someone called us and offered us $95,000. We don't live a life of luxary just necessities. Like food, shelter etc. Why did you as a doc live a life of luxary on credit. I think my youngest Daughter is still paying off her student loan she works as a legal assistant and is 32. It takes a long time to pay off even student loans. And she leaned the hard way that manicures, expensive haircuts she couldn't afford. She no longer does those things. Thankfully she is very healthy both medically and Mental health wise. Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on August 8, 2006, at 10:07:04
In reply to Re: cost of drugs, posted by kylenn on August 6, 2006, at 11:26:05
That's a scarey thought to me. I know some docs do abuse drugs and are working overtime. But to think they are that depressed that they are acting is truley scarey to me. Running a code? And with Aids and othe STD's why do you want to legalize it? I know there wouldn't be less crime as rapes are committed by men who they say are not doing it for sexual gratification but anger towards women in general. Phillipa
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on August 8, 2006, at 10:07:06
In reply to Re: cost of drugs, posted by kylenn on August 6, 2006, at 11:23:41
Hello again.
Yes I understand what you are saying. Although we have completely different tax systems. Wow, people here would long for income tax to be as low as 5%. I'm not too sure of the finer points of our tax system, but here in the UK we get our income taxed at around 25%. Yes the government takes this away before we even see our paychecks. In the Scando countries, its even higher. Sweden, I think, taxes its citizens closer to the 50% mark.
But you know, its made a society (in Finland anyway) whereby you are perfectly safe to walk the streets on your own as a 17 year old girl in a capital city at 11.30pm at night. I'm not sure I could say that of America, certainly not in a down town area or even here in the UK.
We also get *all* of our goods we buy taxed at 17.5%. Actually, they tax booze and cigarettes much higher (and perhaps other things too like luxuary cars), and a few essential items such as bread and milk and childrens apparel, they don't tax at all.
So we have income tax and sales tax. But, its no so bad. To be honest, they are quite strict here on who gets disability etc.
I don't know, its difficult. On the one hand you have America with its 'live free or die' menality and not much in the way of state care, and the other extreme you have the Scando counties with their 50% income tax and whatnot. But the thing is, nothing is free, as we well know, and the Scando counties have alot more free stuff (heatlhcare, childcare, tertiary education etc) but they pay alot of tax. Things in the US ain't free but you pay next to nothing in tax (well, compared to the Scando countries at least).
Its just about how much you want the state to intervene in your life, and 'take care' of you.
I see your point and bitterness about those who aren't really ill/whatever and abuse the system. Yeah we have that too here, and the bitter people. I guess its always going to happen. Personally, I would rather see them use the system, than they become homeless, drug ridden etc. I mean, think about it, a certain amount of sercurity means that they are off the streets making them safer for us folks. Sort of.
People in finland, for example, don't mind paying their high tax, because there is a level playing field. Did you know, that they don't have private schools in Finland? They have the best educational system in the world apparently (according to the Washing Post http://blog.washingtonpost.com/finlanddiary/ ) There is no unfair start to life because your parents have money. So people don't mind.
Anyway, well, yeah. I don't know what the answer is. Set up your own political party??
Yeah and it must be rather infuritating to know that the the US government is wasting billions, if not trillions, of tax money funding the war in Iraq. Certainly we're paying billions of our UK tax money for the war in the middle east, and nobody even wants a war here! Now that is something I am bitter about, not the freeloaders of the system. I bet the war in Iraq is costing much much much more to the tax payer in America than the freeloaders are.
Kind regards
Meri
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on August 8, 2006, at 10:07:07
In reply to Re: cost of drugs » kylenn, posted by Meri-Tuuli on August 6, 2006, at 13:12:01
Hello yet again!
I really urge you to read the Washington Post's full article, here is the direct link:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/05/AR2005080502015.html
I think you'll find it interesting and illumitating!!!
Posted by kylenn on August 8, 2006, at 10:07:07
In reply to Re: cost of drugs » Meri-Tuuli, posted by Meri-Tuuli on August 6, 2006, at 13:25:57
Meri-Tuuli,
Thanks for the nice article.
Finland does sound lovely.
Little bit creeped out by "groupthink" though!
kylenn
Posted by kylenn on August 8, 2006, at 10:07:08
In reply to Re: cost of drugs » kylenn, posted by Meri-Tuuli on August 6, 2006, at 13:12:01
Meri
Hi
Yes, I, too, would end the interference in Iraq if I could. We should stay out of the middle east, I think.
I am not military minded, although I did grow up as the dependant of an Air Force career enlistee.
My first husband spent 4 years in the U.S. Army.I was very scared after 911 for several weeks.
I didn't mean to mislead you about our taxes; currently we are taxed at about 30% on our income by the federal govt.
The initial income tax was 5%. It has grown a bit since then.
I am very attuned to what I see as fairness or unfairness.
I would rather have people in govt housing than foraging on the streets. It just rubs me the wrong way when I know that there are people as capable as I am of getting up and going to work every day, but they don't.
The people who don't work and get free medical care in this country under the Medicaid system are, generally speaking, the worst kind of patient.
Although they truly pay nothing for health care, not even taxes on income or sales taxes etc,
they are almost always the most demanding, the least compliant, the least grateful, and the most likely to sue.
It is tough not to get bitter.
I wish I wasn't bitter, but I am.
Please do not think, though, that I spend every waking moment thinking about and grousing about this type of thing! I don't.
But when the thoughts get triggered by whatever, and if I have a chance to start rambling on about it, well, it is an itch I cannot resist scratching!
Posted by kylenn on August 8, 2006, at 10:07:09
In reply to ReScarey Thought, posted by Phillipa on August 6, 2006, at 11:45:58
Ok, Phillipa,
I am going to let this be my last response to you.
Obviously, you are taking everything I say the wrong way; perhaps my communication skills are not as stellar as I thought they were.
Acting happy when one is not does not make one incompetent. I am not sure why you are so confused over this.
And, sweetie, if you want your docs to NOT be acting, I surely do not know what to tell you.
Presenting yourself as a caring professional is something that is drilled into us in the long years of med school and residency.
We have to learn, no matter what our mental/emotional state is, that we can not reveal that to patients, especially those that do not know us and are acutely ill.
Patients generally do not want to know that their doctor is angry at women in general because he just found out his wife is cheating on him. A good doc will manage to veil his feelings while dealing with his female patients.
A mother with her newborn does not want to know how sad the nurse that is caring for her is because she just had her third miscarriage.
A person just diagnosed with cancer does not want to know how tired doc is after 36 hours straight in the hospital.
Hon, I can't think of many jobs in life that don't require some amount of "acting".Not only that, but one of the things I have learned in therapy is that sometimes ACTING happy can actually foster true happiness. Hard to believe, but it is true.
I am sometimes honest with my patients about my feelings, but only, and I mean ONLY when I think self-disclosure may help the patient, and guess what, this usually happens when I am dealing with a desperately depressed patient, usually a female.
They have been "acting" for their family, for their job, for their spouse for so long, and just scratching the surface of the facade is all it takes to reveal their utter sadness and hopelessness. I am in a position to help, and at times, when they seem so alone in their misery, I reach out and let them know, they are not alone. I have been where they are now,and I can help them find their way out. I know the way; I am there for them. They can continue the act that they need to do to keep things running at the house or on the job. They can turn into a puddle with me.
I have a valuable role in my community.
I care VERY much about my patients, yes, even the ones that I have decided just might not be for real or might be taking advantage of the system in some way. I am, by nature, a very caring and concerned person. I feel deeply the hurt that others feel. I can not keep myself emotionally aloof from the desperately ill and sad patients and their families that I care for. I have been this way since I was 4 years old.If I have to "act" calm in the midst of chaos, no matter how nervous I am at my core, this is my job. By acting calm, calmness ensues, thinking clears, decisions get made.
Coding is one of the scariest things a health professional can do. The situation is, by nature, chaotic and scary. I have heard many a colleague say that the day codes don't make their heart beat a little faster is the day they need to quit.
I have been able over the course of my career to hone my acting skills to the point where, when I enter the room to begin a patient encounter, no matter how I felt in the hall, I immediately and without conscious effort go into the role of the "doctor" and whatever that patient needs from me at that moment, he will get, no matter what is in my heart. I am not in that room to indulge my own feelings and emotions, opinions or biases. I am in that room to be the one person that that patient can count on, confide in and trust. I will listen to him/her and I will do everything I can to make his or her life just a little easier.
And it does not matter how hard my life is and how I wish my life was easier. My job is to do what I can for that patient, and if that means putting on a brave face when I am scared, a serious face when I feel silly, a delighted face when I feel disappointed or a gentle face when I feel angry, that is what I will do.
If I do not need to "put on a face" for the patient, then I won't! Those encounters are, admittedly, the easiest! But, I know my job.
And I am good at it. Really good.
I consider myself an Oscar quality actress.
Posted by Phillipa on August 8, 2006, at 10:07:09
In reply to welfare state, posted by kylenn on August 6, 2006, at 19:52:14
I tend to agree with that. Of course there are exceptions. I don't like to generalize. Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on August 8, 2006, at 10:07:09
In reply to Reality check, posted by kylenn on August 6, 2006, at 20:18:39
No reason to reply. You're so right I'm not stupid or dumb. I just recognize when I might not pick up on a mistake a doc made in writing orders for a patient. As RN's carry Malpractice insurance also because the Hospital may not defend them. And RN's know meds better than docs sometimes it's our job. I can't count how many times docs are called back on the phone cause their order is not or may not be correct. We are responsible for knowing what doses are recommended. And I wish docs would learn to write so they don't have to be called and awakened in the middle of the night. But safety first. And I was Nationally Certified in Psych Nursing which I lost when I became ill so ill that my pdoc said no you may not work. And this breaks my heart as I love nursing and helping others. And sometimes a patient does want to hear about that nurses miscarriage. Sometimes it helps to know the person truly understands as she has just gone through the same thing. And Nurses where I have worked have done all the med teaching to the patients and on Psych did all the patient Groups. I know a Resident who posts on this board that said he couldn't do his job without Nurses. And we have about 8 patients each. And when one dies we put on a happy face because our other patients must be cared for. Everything gets stuffed inside. No crying allowed. And this leads to the same burn out that many docs have. And in turn leads to Depression or other illnesses. So forgive me for not working if I know and only I can positively know that I am incapable of working at this time. Hopefully I will be able to return to work. If not I'll end up volunteering. I'm just sorry that I'm not one of the people who meds work for. I'm still trying and won't give up. I'm 60 years old now. I don't have that much time. So I am doing everything in my power to become well again. A lot of my neighbors in their 50's are already retired. I have no idea your age and it doesn't matter. What matters to me is that there are too many errors made in Hospitals, Doc's offices, Pharmacies. Needless mistakes. One of the reasons Malpractice is so high. Maybe one day the system will not work their Interns so hard. At least RN's must have 8 hours before they can work after sometimes doing double shifts which are l6 hours long. And Doc's do have on call Doc's they share it. That's long enough. Phillipa
Posted by Jost on August 8, 2006, at 10:07:10
In reply to Re: welfare state » kylenn, posted by Phillipa on August 6, 2006, at 20:44:18
Phillipa, thanks for taking time to talk more about your life. Your posts are so short and pithy usually, and I've often wondered were you are in life.
It sounds like you were a great nurse. The kind of nursing in hospitals makes so much difference, since hospital phyisicians get more detached and often less knowledgeable about each patient in this new era. I hope you'll get back to a place where you can practice nursing again.
Maybe emsam will be part of the answer. When do you start?
Jost
Posted by Phillipa on August 8, 2006, at 10:07:10
In reply to Re: welfare state » Phillipa, posted by Jost on August 7, 2006, at 11:21:22
Hi Jost. Certain subjects I get passionate about. And sometimes I'll join a thread to learn hence the short notes. Right now I'm in the process of changing from valium to klonopin as a lot think it's a better benzo, and weaning down on luvox which is taking longer than I'd hoped due to dizzyness. And I just stopped the lamictal. So as soon as I get my anxiety, fear of going out alone , and fear of being home alone, I'll concentrate more on the EMSAM how much, etc. Love Phillipa
Posted by Estella on August 8, 2006, at 10:07:11
In reply to Re: cost of drugs, posted by kylenn on August 5, 2006, at 16:54:05
> And so, if something is a "basic human right" because it is necessary for survival, then I certainly feel that food, water, shelter and clothing would come BEFORE health care. Sanitation would come before health care as well. These items are MUCH MUCH more important for survival on a DAY to DAY basis (and it would follow, therefore, that they would qualify over and above health care as "basic human rights") It should, therefore, by the same reasoning, all be paid for by the government (out of taxes, which the people pay to the government).
> So, we should all just turn over our whole paychecks to the government so that they could take care of the costs of things that are necessary for survival, these "basic human rights".
Ah, but you see that doesn't follow. When 10% of the country have over half the wealth in the country... When you look at the money spent on war and military research... When you consider that the amount of money people spend on bottled water (when non-bottled water is safe to drink) could provide drinkable water for third world countries...
The last bit doesn't follow.
I think that it is a human right to have your basic needs met. And rights... Entail duties, yes.
But I've been told I'm an idealist.
Comes of being on welfare most of my life you see.
If welfare hadn't supported my mother and me...
If welfare hadn't supported me living in a girls home...
If welfare hadn't brought me food...
If welfare hadn't brought me clothing...
If welfare hadn't brought me school books...
If welfare hadn't paid for the bus...Where would I be now?
I'm studying towards a grad degree.
But I have a lot of sympathy for those who don't do anything because... They don't think they can do anything meaningful. IMO they need more help (in the form of psychological / social work intervention) - not judgement.
I sympathise with long hours and numerous patients etc.
But I'm sorry I can't bring myself to judge these people harshly...
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 8, 2006, at 10:18:08
In reply to Re: cost of drugs » kylenn, posted by Tomatheus on August 5, 2006, at 23:11:17
> in today's world, the HARDER you work, the MORE you support the lazy.
>
> kylenn> in all likelihood, you'll never see any of the harm that will probably result from your "lecture," much less do anything to help those who might be harmed.
>
> TomatheusPlease post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
But please don't take this personally, either, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're bad people.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please first see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
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