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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 4 to 28 of 36. Go back in thread:
Posted by Declan on June 10, 2006, at 5:40:02
In reply to Re: Zarqawi killed in Iraq, posted by llrrrpp on June 9, 2006, at 17:04:45
Wasn't a Murdoch paper hey? His death will create a brief and meaningless flash of optimism. We are dealing with a climate of opinion rather than an organisation.
Posted by AuntieMel on June 10, 2006, at 13:33:45
In reply to Re: Zarqawi killed in Iraq, posted by Declan on June 10, 2006, at 5:40:02
What bothers me about this is the sheer glee people have about it.
Ok, the guy wasn't any thing I can civilly say, but still. A life is a life. I get disturbed when people are 'thrilled' someone is executed, too.
What does that say about us. That we are no better than "them?" <whoever "them" is>
Posted by AuntieMel on June 10, 2006, at 13:34:17
In reply to Zarqawi killed in Iraq, posted by Bobby on June 8, 2006, at 19:27:47
Good news about your baseball.
Posted by llrrrpp on June 10, 2006, at 13:35:12
In reply to Re: Zarqawi killed in Iraq, posted by Jost on June 9, 2006, at 23:03:45
Chicago Tribune
and
http://www.cnn.comTrigger warning- corpse picture if you click on the link
Posted by sdb on June 10, 2006, at 15:22:23
In reply to Re: Zarqawi killed in Iraq, posted by llrrrpp on June 9, 2006, at 17:04:45
and i feel sensitive for Bush and Bush supporters on the whole earth when they will see one photo more of a dead body from a human being in CNN and if they're suprised how ugly this is and i feel sensitive when they will recognize that is only one dead body more.
sdb
Posted by gardenergirl on June 10, 2006, at 15:34:21
In reply to Re: Zarqawi killed in Iraq, posted by sdb on June 10, 2006, at 15:22:23
President Bush stated that Zarqawi had "been brought to justice."
Umm, no. He was killed. My view of being brought to justice, at least here on earth, is coming before some judicial or court process to judge acts in question. I am not aware of that happening in this case.
gg
Posted by Declan on June 10, 2006, at 18:16:53
In reply to Re: Zarqawi killed in Iraq, posted by gardenergirl on June 10, 2006, at 15:34:21
I think the day before it was in the news that 16 or so Iraqi heads had been found packed into banana crates. Then before that there was an Iraqi warlord with a table of cash and 2 heads on either side of his chair to play bongos on.
Declan
Posted by Bobby on June 11, 2006, at 10:33:13
In reply to Zarqawi killed in Iraq, posted by Bobby on June 8, 2006, at 19:27:47
we could have sent him to decapitation rehab or that he had some redeeming qualities for the scores of people he killed and those he planned to kill?
Posted by Jay on June 11, 2006, at 10:46:14
In reply to Is anyone suggesting, posted by Bobby on June 11, 2006, at 10:33:13
> we could have sent him to decapitation rehab or that he had some redeeming qualities for the scores of people he killed and those he planned to kill?
>
>Do you know him personally, and can verify all of the details behind who he was, or is it Fox or CNN who gave you all the details? Have you seen the movie 'Wag the Dog'? The American government can pretty much say whatever it pleases. Do you realize killing him was in violation of the Geneva Convention, which the U.S. of A. has signed on the bottom line for?
Just wondering..
Jay
Posted by AuntieMel on June 11, 2006, at 12:08:40
In reply to Is anyone suggesting, posted by Bobby on June 11, 2006, at 10:33:13
Not a bit. I'm only suggesting that there is something wrong with looking so happy about a dead guy.
We set out rat traps and roach motels, but it doesn't mean we need to dance in the streets when we get one.
Posted by Bobby on June 11, 2006, at 12:23:28
In reply to Re: Is anyone suggesting » Bobby, posted by Jay on June 11, 2006, at 10:46:14
does that mean that you know him personally? I find it hard to believe that the whitehouse forced them to release video tapes of beheadings. I'm not gleeful that he was killed---just really relieved. My guess is that, given the chance, there is a strong possibility that he would be more than happy to kill you and I.
Posted by Bobby on June 11, 2006, at 12:28:21
In reply to Re: Is anyone suggesting » Bobby, posted by AuntieMel on June 11, 2006, at 12:08:40
Maybe you're on to something but I can't remember anyone getting there head cut off by a roach or a rat. perhaps people are happy because of all the lives that have been saved in the future. I realize that the violence will go on, but we have killed a very big rat.
Posted by Dinah on June 11, 2006, at 15:53:17
In reply to Is anyone suggesting, posted by Bobby on June 11, 2006, at 10:33:13
I think there is a tendency for people to view the spark of life in a human as something sacred or special, even if they aren't religious. Maybe because every baby when it's born has the potential for good things as well as bad, and it's horrific to see someone make choices to use that potential to hurt others, and it's even sad to see them hurt, however outraged we might be. That maybe the outrage doesn't stop that respect for the spark of life, or the sadness of what has happened to that limitless potential.
I'm just guessing.
Also, people may be concerned with Dr. Bob's injunction about making light of death, even the death of someone who has apparently done terrible things.
Posted by Declan on June 11, 2006, at 16:15:54
In reply to Re: Is anyone suggesting » Jay, posted by Bobby on June 11, 2006, at 12:23:28
He would have cut our throats in a flash....but that's war, collateral damage. Daniel Berg was not right wing or anything.
2 million dead in the Iran/Iraq war. What was that about, apart from revenge, opportunism, and big power politics? Just awful.
Too early in the morning for this, hey?
Declan
Posted by Jost on June 11, 2006, at 16:23:57
In reply to Re: Is anyone suggesting » Bobby, posted by Dinah on June 11, 2006, at 15:53:17
There's no joy in killing anyone, including Zarqawi. But he was as close as one can get to evil, although he doesn't seem to be alone in that, in the world today. He just seemed for a time to personify and, in that sense, to help us feel we could identify and control it. When we think about what's happening in so many places in the world, it becomes overwhelming.
Sometimes, one person can inspire and organize and personally spread a contagion for such brutality. Whether Zarqawi was such a person, I don't know. Whether, even if he was, the contagion has spread out of control, I also don't know.
The misplaced happiness about his death could have come from the wish that there was an easy answer--that this horrible mess we've created could somehow be turned into a reasonable situation, and come to some good.
There's probably a lot of underground guilt around about what we've done in Iraq. We would feel a whole lot better if we could find someone to blame and then, if they were gone, see it healed.
Jost
Posted by Bobby on June 11, 2006, at 16:26:58
In reply to Re: Is anyone suggesting » Bobby, posted by Dinah on June 11, 2006, at 15:53:17
You're always a voice of reason Dinah--thanks. I think I'll bow out of this one before it becomes ugly and Dr. Bob steps in. time to make light of something else.
Posted by sdb on June 11, 2006, at 16:56:35
In reply to Re: Is anyone suggesting, posted by Jost on June 11, 2006, at 16:23:57
Why was Zarqawi such a huge problem for some people especially of some members from a "government" between the indian and antlantic ocean, or was not Saddam Hussein a huge problem before and for who?
Is that not an issue which mainly Iraqi people have to or should have to deal with?
For me not these people hurt me. I can live with or without Zarqawi or Saddam Hussein.sdb
Posted by Dinah on June 11, 2006, at 17:16:38
In reply to Re: Is anyone suggesting, posted by sdb on June 11, 2006, at 16:56:35
?
Is something only painful if it concerns us directly?
I personally feel impotent and powerless in face of much of what happens in this world. And I suppose I don't let it prostrate me with grief on a day to day basis. But seeing the pain of others and being affected by it is a trait that isn't even limited to humans.
Posted by Declan on June 11, 2006, at 18:07:07
In reply to Re: Is anyone suggesting » Bobby, posted by Dinah on June 11, 2006, at 15:53:17
Just ignore me. My minds diseased and I know nothing. But Robert fisk has a book out on the middle east that i'd like to read. Can it be called "The Great War for Civilization"? I remember hearing Bin Laden's thing years ago where he finished off by saying something like 'By God we do not need the Holy Land (or whatever he called it) defended by Crusaders and jewish prostitutes', and I thought 'Wow!', do we understand this mindset? And who else shares it or something like it? Who understands this stuff?
Declan
Posted by sdb on June 11, 2006, at 18:15:04
In reply to Re: Is anyone suggesting » sdb, posted by Dinah on June 11, 2006, at 17:16:38
> ?
>
> Is something only painful if it concerns us directly?
>
> I personally feel impotent and powerless in face of much of what happens in this world. And I suppose I don't let it prostrate me with grief on a day to day basis. But seeing the pain of others and being affected by it is a trait that isn't even limited to humans.answer:
and yes I agree and I can understand your feeling. In our time of television you will see sad pictures daily. In spite of that we are connected through telephone, TV, Internet, Fax and many more the human being has a big memory and this
plays a great role if individuals are connected directly nearby hand by hand. The human being has a big speak area in the brain added to the big memory and geographically there are subpopulations eg. an nation with a symbol (flag). Thus there are single connected subpopulations of some human beings in a huge population. All these subpopulations have all their own history, belief and culture. People of such a subpopulation will not react friendly if somebody who does not belong to their inner circle wants to change something without asking their opinion. Furthermore the human being is the most aggressive mammal. Thus there should be something like a rule not to try changing things of external subpopulations. But if you are concerned and you will ask them that you could offer your help and you feel compassion because of possible pain in a subpopulation (country, flag or whatever) they will accept you warmly. I think that this intention is positive.All these circumstances are observable in an aquarium or bigger in the ocean. It is similar but not equal.
If there is a subpopulation living in a jungle without any contacts to our modern civility (if there is something like that nowadays) my personal opinion
is touching absolutely nothing.sdb
Posted by sdb on June 11, 2006, at 18:47:15
In reply to Re: Is anyone suggesting » sdb, posted by Dinah on June 11, 2006, at 17:16:38
> ?
>
> Is something only painful if it concerns us directly?
>
> I personally feel impotent and powerless in face of much of what happens in this world. And I suppose I don't let it prostrate me with grief on a day to day basis. But seeing the pain of others and being affected by it is a trait that isn't even limited to humans.Dear Dinah
I dont have a connected TV anymore (I think its better without). I tend to buy or borrowing films about animals, nature scenes, interesting cultures and more and watch it later on the computer. I frequent the news sometimes in the internet where I can selectively choose the sources.
>I personally feel impotent and powerless in face >of much of what happens in this world
I feel the same as you do if I see something near my door or occasionally in the TV (pictures have big impact).
So you are not alone Dinah I feel with you together.sdb
Posted by Dinah on June 11, 2006, at 22:29:01
In reply to Re: Is anyone suggesting }} Dinah, posted by sdb on June 11, 2006, at 18:47:15
Yeah. Feeling powerless and impotent isn't really in my best interests.
I tend to find the written word even more evocative than pictures though. Even history depresses me no end, if you get past dates and names. When I think of the lot of the average serf in the Middle Ages...
Well, it's all too depressing to contemplate.
Posted by Sobriquet Style on June 12, 2006, at 5:42:09
In reply to Re: Is anyone suggesting }} Dinah » sdb, posted by Dinah on June 11, 2006, at 22:29:01
Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, said to have beheaded Nicholas Berg, although from what I know it isn't a 100% proven fact. That said, he is supposed to be responsible for thousands of civilian deaths.
Bush and Blair, said to be responsible for 42,747 cilvilian deaths at present by military intervention - and the civilian deaths are still rising year by year.
This may sound strange, but of the 42,747, is it possible that any of them were beheaded when a bomb fell on them. Just a thought.
Its hard what to know is going on and what will happen with Zarqawi's death. For instance, retaliation? Conflicting reports that an eye witness saw US troops were beating up Zarqawi after he was wounded, to reports that say US troops were trying to get him medical help..
The media and propaganda aside, the civilian deaths are still rising even though Zarqawi is not here anymore. So will the future bring less deaths from the war from now on? Will it not make any significance. Or will more deaths arise from this?
Bush's idea of peace in that part of the world, I believe will not happen in the time scale he thinks, if it does happen, but will take at least a generation, and possibly more time until Iraq will become a popular tourist destination and people from around the globe choose to migrate there for a better a life and job oppurtunites.
Until that happens, I wonder how many more deaths will occur from both sides, either civilian, terrorist, troop or pending politicians eg Sadam. The most being civilians.
~
Posted by 10derHeart on June 12, 2006, at 15:41:50
In reply to Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, Bush, Blair and Death, posted by Sobriquet Style on June 12, 2006, at 5:42:09
>>Conflicting reports that an eye witness saw US troops were beating up Zarqawi after he was wounded, to reports that say US troops were trying to get him medical help..<<
I just wanted to say thank you for writing this part of your post in this way. For mentioning *both* sides of a potentially explosive portion of a still-developing news story. That doesn't always happen here....the stating of both sets of possible facts in a controversy, and I think it's so important and helpful that you did.
I pray we find out the beating did not happen. My gut tells me it didn't....but that's certainly not worth much outside my own head and heart, and certainly not infallible either.
BTW, by saying that, I don't mean to have missed the bigger point of your entire post. I didn't miss it. Very thought-provoking. I like your style here...a place where posts are not so very easy to compose, at least not for me.....
Posted by zeugma on June 17, 2006, at 17:28:11
In reply to Re: Is anyone suggesting » AuntieMel, posted by Bobby on June 11, 2006, at 12:28:21
perhaps people are happy because of all the lives that have been saved in the future. I realize that the violence will go on, but we have killed a very big rat. >>
The violence in all likelihood will get worse.
The problems I have with characterizing anyone, even an enemy, as a "rat" are on many levels, perhaps interrelated.
First, it dehumanizes the enemy, which purportedly is what the enemy has done to us.
Second, it is a grave strategic error... to characterize Zarqawi as a "rat" is to engage in the same kind of propaganda (of course, you weren't propagandizing- but were you to have been doing so, say on al Jazeera, it would have constituted the same type of error) that the U.S. psy-ops crew did in describing Zarqawi as "fumbling with an AK-47" as they did both on release of some of his tapes earlier, and in describing footage recovered after his death. Characterizing an enemy as inept is just bad tactics given the string of attacks Zarqawi pulled off, deft hand with an AK-47 or no. The U.S. release of that footage while Zarqawi was still alive struck me with dismay, much as General Michael Hayden (successor to the eminent Porter Goss as head of the CIA) struck me with dismay when he characterized his typical opposite number in a major terrorist syndicate as "some idiot in a cave in Waziristan."
Presumably, the 'idiot' could have rightly replied that Gen. Hayden was lacking in foresight himself, because he was (prior to Mr. Bush's elevation of Gen. Hayden to the highest post in our intelligence organization) most widely known as the man who intercepted a phone call from a known al Qaeda operative in the U.S. (who was soon to engage in simultaneous suicide and mass homicide) stating "tomorrow is zero hour."
Unfortunately, the call was conducted in Arabic, and back then the NSA's zeal for wiretapping significantly outran its 'humintel' capacities (ie, Gen. Hayden's huge expenditures on snooping equipment meant that translators could not be afforded). As a matter of fact I had heard that one reason Gen. Hayden was better suited as head of the CIA, rather than of the NSA, was that the CIA's traditional focus on 'humintel' meant that he could not run up the budget so much on wiretapping devices and other gadgetry known only to a select few outside of AT&T operating rooms. Which is an odd commendation, but likely salved the conscience of a fiscal conservative or two. (There is erroneous thinking here too, but I won't go into it.)
Perhaps Gen. Hayden, on 9/10/01 and prior, thought English was the lingua franca of terrorists, even those whose birthplaces were Saudi Arabia and other points east.
I do not say this to criticize Gen. Hayden, who brings to the CIA a wealth of experience in wiretapping skills. I merely say that I do not overestimate those who underestimate their enemies.
-z
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