![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 6 to 30 of 53. Go back in thread:
Posted by Bobby on April 21, 2006, at 17:35:36
In reply to Immigration » Bobby, posted by Dinah on April 17, 2006, at 9:12:58
It's just that I was kinda hoping they would be satisfied with taking back California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas. Well, who knows----if we get enough illegals, maybe I'll finally qualify for a minority scholarship.
Posted by Racer on April 23, 2006, at 20:58:34
In reply to Re: Immigration » Dinah, posted by Bobby on April 21, 2006, at 17:35:36
I've spent a lot of time in places that historically have hired undocumented aliens -- stables. When I was a kid, the INS would sweep through fairly regularly and deport the guys working at the barn -- who would usually be back in a few weeks. As laws have changed, how it works out changed, too. Now most of them use fraudulent Social Security Numbers, which they seem to share around, as far as I can make out. One guy will use a number, then when he moves on, he'll give the card to someone else.
It's a tough question, and I am glad I don't have to answer it.
I do know that the work involved is not something it would be easy to find Americans to do. Who wants to clean a stall for $10 per hour? Especially when there are SO many of them? Who would reliably show up and clean stalls every day? And most barns actually provide housing for the guys working there, which is rarely up to the standards most Americans are looking for. (Although I have seen some mighty nice little cottages being built around here now at some new barns.) And barns are generally doing well to break even, so it's not like wages can go up very far.
So, when I look at the guys who've worked at the barns where I've been, they work hard, they are reliable (mostly), and they're necessary. And usually illegal. (Employment laws here, though, have changed: if they're not being paid entirely under the table, they have to have an SSN, so most do have one -- just, not their own...)
Maybe the answer is temporary work visas? Good maybe three years at a time?
I don't know. As I said, I'm really glad I don't have to work it out myself...
Posted by brkn_drmr on April 24, 2006, at 14:46:07
In reply to Re: Immigration » Dinah, posted by Bobby on April 21, 2006, at 17:35:36
Posted by Bobby on April 25, 2006, at 21:53:05
In reply to As someone who's worked with undocumented..., posted by Racer on April 23, 2006, at 20:58:34
I like you Racer. however, my ancestors dug ditches, picked cotton, unplugged toilets, picked vegetables and sweated in textile mills long before the upper class began to lure illegals. And they spoke english---willingly.
Posted by AuntieMel on April 28, 2006, at 10:56:26
In reply to Re: As someone who's worked with undocumented... » Racer, posted by Bobby on April 25, 2006, at 21:53:05
There is a wonderful woman who cleans my house and has for years.
When she first started she was undocumented, just trying to make a living. When the amnesty thing rolled around in '86, she applied to stay. I helped her with documentation, as did others who she took care of.
She's now legal, has learned as much english as she needs to (I speak no spanish), has bought a house and is a taxpayer. And I report her earnings and pay her social security.
She's been with us for more than 20 years and is a part of the family. I plan to put her in my will if I ever write one.
Posted by Bobby on April 28, 2006, at 15:33:53
In reply to Re: On the other hand » Bobby, posted by AuntieMel on April 28, 2006, at 10:56:26
That's a great story Auntie Mel. My wife did the same thing until she got her green card. However, we can't ignore the fact that many illegals do not pay taxes but are free to tax our social and medical services---putting many of our kids' futures in jeopardy. Do you agree?
Posted by AuntieMel on April 28, 2006, at 16:06:51
In reply to Re: On the other hand » AuntieMel, posted by Bobby on April 28, 2006, at 15:33:53
What do you mean by 'not pay taxes?' If that means no income taxes, then you are right - but anyone else working for that wage probably wouldn't pay income taxes *and* would also get the Earned Income Credit.
As for other taxes? Sales taxes? Gasoline taxes? Paid. Property taxes? Paid through rent. Social security taxes - ok, no pay but they won't get any retirement or disability from them either.
It's not a simple problem, unfortunately. As long as people can do much better here than at home they will keep risking themselves for it. Building a fence won't work, that's for dang sure. There's already tunnels you can *literally* drive a truck through.
And passing more laws? Why not just enforce the ones we have. Everyone is supposed to prove they have a right to work here (I-9 form) But *nobody* ever checks them.
Posted by Bobby on April 28, 2006, at 20:54:13
In reply to Re: No, not really » Bobby, posted by AuntieMel on April 28, 2006, at 16:06:51
I must agree with some of what you said---but when we pay $6000 in state taxes---call me selfish,but I want some of it spent on my kids. President Fox of Mexico has never tried to hide that fact that they were sending us the lowest class Mexico has to offer and that is how they will invade us---using our own system. Now for homework, check and see what it takes to get a work visa to work in Mexico. Mexicans plan to boycott America on May 1---don't buy anything, don't go to work, ect... Personally I am saving
my money to go on a spending spree on May 1.
I know plenty of good hearted, hard working Mexicans who do contribute to our society-----that's not the issue. It's the inevitable collapse of our social services, school sytems and working class Americans who DO want those jobs because of the sheer numbers of illegal aliens who are begining to sink the ship. Yes, I'm worried about my familie's future.
Posted by gardenergirl on April 28, 2006, at 21:57:12
In reply to Re: No, not really » AuntieMel, posted by Bobby on April 28, 2006, at 20:54:13
Mexico is planning to invade us?
gg
Posted by Bobby on April 28, 2006, at 22:46:57
In reply to Re: No, not really » Bobby, posted by gardenergirl on April 28, 2006, at 21:57:12
figuratively and quite literally---they already are/have. I tend to quite liberal, but when I look at the facts(Yes I read up-as I encourage all to), It is a very unsettling picture being painted in our front yard----sorta like the graffiti I see sprayed on walls and builings. SOMEBODY is going to have to pay for this finacially. It may be you and me giving up Social security--and todays children---God help them. Am I suffering from delusions?
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 1, 2006, at 21:55:50
In reply to Re: No, not really » AuntieMel, posted by Bobby on April 28, 2006, at 20:54:13
> the lowest class Mexico has to offer
I'm sorry your family isn't more secure, but please be sensitive to the feelings of those here from Mexico.
But please don't take this personally, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're a bad person.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please first see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by henrietta on May 5, 2006, at 15:32:53
In reply to Re: No, not really » AuntieMel, posted by Bobby on April 28, 2006, at 20:54:13
I'm glad you've got the money to go on a spending spree. I didn't purchase anything all week, so maybe I balanced you out, but I doubt it. Judging from the state taxes you pay, I'd say you have a lot more financial security (and mad money) than I do, so my small protest probably couldn't counter yours.
By the way, in case you're interested, I have felt extremely hurt and greatly offended by your posts on this thread.
Posted by henrietta on May 5, 2006, at 19:04:24
In reply to Re: No, not really Bobby, posted by henrietta on May 5, 2006, at 15:32:53
your research? Provide references, links, whatever? (You encouraged us to look into the subject.) I'm particularly interested in the statistics you discovered relating to the negative effect on Social Security caused by immigrants as opposed to other factors. Thanks.
Posted by henrietta on May 5, 2006, at 19:07:18
In reply to hey bobby could you share, posted by henrietta on May 5, 2006, at 19:04:24
have? Personally, I believe in ZPG. What's your view?
Posted by henrietta on May 5, 2006, at 19:09:10
In reply to Re: hey bobby how many kids do you, posted by henrietta on May 5, 2006, at 19:07:18
do you drive?
Posted by henrietta on May 5, 2006, at 19:30:57
In reply to Re: hey bobby what kind of car, posted by henrietta on May 5, 2006, at 19:09:10
In my experience most of the "illegals getting a free ride" are native peoples, Indians. Just like our North American Indians. Ancient cultures who were invaded by Europeans, their lands stolen, their cultures destroyed. And they've been persecuted, financially enslaved, kept in poverty for a couple hundred years by invaders. By people who stole their land.
As for Dinah's reservations about "material gains", I must ask what is meant by that? Is it "material" to want to teach your children to read? To feed your children? To provide a modicum of health care to your children? Do "material" matters include living in a trailor that's not so riddled with mold and mildew that your children are constantly sick? Or is materialism about being able to see a theapist 2 times a week (and willfully refusing to "improve" so you can have lifetime therapy?) and finding a private school that precisely suits the needs of your child?
I'm sorry if I have some trouble with others' interpretations of "materialism". And with others' interpretations of "invasion".
PS Sorry, too that I got Colbert's name wrong. It's Stephen Colbert.
Posted by henrietta on May 6, 2006, at 0:53:19
In reply to history bobby, posted by henrietta on May 5, 2006, at 19:30:57
I am truly sorry I was not able to remain civil in my above posts. I regret any hurt I may have caused, and will readily accept a very long and well-deserved block.
henrietta
Posted by Estella on May 7, 2006, at 1:43:20
In reply to Apology, posted by henrietta on May 6, 2006, at 0:53:19
i feel sad when people don't think everyone has a right to life (hence society has a duty to provide enough for basic needs being met for ALL HUMAN BEINGS)
because...
of feeling insecure that ones own family won't have certain 'luxuries' ('luxuries' i mean in comparison to basic needs like some kind of shelter, food, basic healthcare and education etc etc)
i feel very sad about that indeed.
(((((((hen))))))))
Posted by Dinah on May 7, 2006, at 3:33:17
In reply to history bobby, posted by henrietta on May 5, 2006, at 19:30:57
> Or is materialism about being able to see a theapist 2 times a week and finding a private school that precisely suits the needs of your child?
Yes, if I recall my point correctly, and I'm not sure I do, it occurred to me to wonder if that was a good definition of a better life. Or a worse one, for that matter. Or if it was even culturally insensitive of me to judge any one way of life as being better than another.
As long, of course, as basic necessities are being met.
My grandpa used to pick expired products out of supermarket trash bins, because that was the only way to get "luxuries" like store bought pickles or store bought bread. There wasn't much in his fridge that didn't have a big black X on it. But he and my grandma appeared to be happy people, at peace with themselves. By material standards, perhaps not overly successful, by other measures enormously so.
Posted by zazenduck on May 7, 2006, at 12:44:15
In reply to Apology, posted by henrietta on May 6, 2006, at 0:53:19
what are you doing in a place like this?
Posted by henrietta on May 7, 2006, at 19:59:16
In reply to hen is a wise passionate chick » henrietta, posted by zazenduck on May 7, 2006, at 12:44:15
Thank you so much
Posted by henrietta on May 7, 2006, at 20:57:16
In reply to thank you star and duck, posted by henrietta on May 7, 2006, at 19:59:16
You've no idea how much that meant to me. again, thank you.
hen
Posted by Bobby on May 7, 2006, at 21:11:47
In reply to Estella and Zazenduck, posted by henrietta on May 7, 2006, at 20:57:16
I'm part native american--doesn'that give me free reign to get rid of the europeons?
Posted by Estella on May 8, 2006, at 5:48:14
In reply to Re: Estella and Zazenduck, posted by Bobby on May 7, 2006, at 21:11:47
> I'm part native american--doesn'that give me free reign to get rid of the europeons?
what do you think?
was anybody in the us before the native americans?
reperation... i think you are owed one hell of a lot in reparation.
a lot of what was done to the american indians was shameful.
giving them blankets infested with small pox and relocating them to canada... stuff like that.
a lot of things like that happened in nz too. to the maori (indigenous people of nz). don't think anybody was here before them (though that is a bit arguable).
they were invited to church at which point the doors were barred shut and the church was set on fire.
they are owed reperation imho.
years of racism thereafter...
they are owed reperation.
but then i also think... that all human beings have a right to life. my understanding was that your ancestors were pretty nice and friendly to the immigrants to america. your ancestors got f*cked over. badly. that sucks. but imho... don't perpeptuate the cycle. there are people from mexico and africa etc etc who are having a little trouble.
remember your roots...
i know people think i'm crazy...
but better to die with a clean conscience
but that being said
i understand the rage
Posted by Estella on May 8, 2006, at 10:07:26
In reply to Estella and Zazenduck, posted by henrietta on May 7, 2006, at 20:57:16
you are beautiful hen.
i'm sorry we didn't get the chance to talk more.
i have some idea how much it means...
oh yes indeed i do.
take care.
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Politics | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.