![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 25 to 49 of 68. Go back in thread:
Posted by Declan on November 2, 2005, at 20:31:19
In reply to god bless america!!!!, posted by alexandra_k on November 2, 2005, at 19:03:41
Alex, music. Nothing in the entertainment industry comes near American music. Their films?......they need sciptwriters, the odd one's OK, but films are best left to non-English speaking filmakers IMO.
Declan
Posted by alexandra_k on November 2, 2005, at 20:35:52
In reply to Re: the Ministry of Civility » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on November 2, 2005, at 19:59:29
> Well, that's not quite correct. The military didn't do anything to help for quite some time because...
Because they weren't given orders to...
> > Now... Thats not the fault of the US military.
I know that.
> > And the welfare of the citizens needing US aid is put on the back burner...
> Again, not quite the case. The fact is that the entire thing was bungled, but not because the military was in Iraq. The stories I've heard...
You don't think the war was a factor?
A lot of military people being otherwise occupied?
And the expense involved with that...Yeah... It is hard to know about the stories. Really very hard to know. And I appreciate that there are a lot of people who think that points can be made on the basis of what happened (points about the current administration, or points about poverty, or points about racism or whatever), and I know that sometimes the truth in comprimised in order to make a point or two...
> The mortality rates were high among the elderly who didn't perhaps have the means to leave (as in the ability to drive a car long distances), or the ability to chop through to their attics or to swim to safety. Or who thought they were safe because they'd always been safe before. The evacuations had always been false alarms before.
Okay. So from the wealthier neighborhoods... It was the elderly and infirm who tended to be hit the hardest? Or those who chose not to evacuate. I'm just wondering whether in the poorer neighborhoods... It might have been more than the elderly and infirm, and less who *chose* not to evacuate seeing as they didn't really have another option...
Yeah. I heard the pilings gave out. That thats why it flooded. And that that had something to do with... spending money on the war instead of infra-structure. Budget cuts for infra-structure which impacts on most people vs war...I know the flood just flooded. It didn't choose to flood the poorer people worse or anything like that. It is just a matter of how fast aid was sent... What aid was sent... And whether that aid would have been sent faster... If the people in the dome had been on average a whole heap wealthier than they were...
> By the way, I personally know people who were in the Superdome, people who were at the Convention Center, and people who drowned. White middle to upper class people. People like me in every way. Except that they didn't evacuate.
Yeah. But on average... On average...
> People all over New Orleans and the surrounding areas are suffering.I know that Dinah. And I most certainly do not mean to undermine that. Really. It is a tragedy all round.
> And the National Guard did a d*mn bit better helping than did the civilians who were supposed to be helping.
I would hope so! They are trained to do that after all and they should have the means to get lots of supplies etc in there.
> The only difference is that people with resources can cope better *after* the disaster. They can go to hotels, they have job skills to relocate, they aren't going to stay long term in shelters because they have finances to do something else. (Although my brother stayed over a month in a shelter.) They can hire contractors even before their insurance money comes in. They probably have better insurance. But that's not the government. That's just reality.
Yeah.
Though we could of course talk about how the greatest predictor of level of education, of level of income etc is what your parents were up to... We could talk about how that is perpeptuated by an individualist world view that treats everyone as being equally placed in the world with equal opportunity and yet how the society does very little to work towards this actually being the case...
> Alexandra, I'm *here*. I've been listening to stories from people who are *here*. I'm telling you it's been h*ll for people from all economic strata.I know.
I don't mean to undermine that.
Really.
Posted by alexandra_k on November 2, 2005, at 20:37:01
In reply to Re: god bless america!!!! » alexandra_k, posted by Declan on November 2, 2005, at 20:31:19
> Alex, music. Nothing in the entertainment industry comes near American music.
Such as????
Yeah I thought of that too...
And I like rap, that is true...
But most of the other stuff...
I'm finding to be British ;-)
Posted by alexandra_k on November 2, 2005, at 20:37:30
In reply to Re: god bless america!!!! » Declan, posted by alexandra_k on November 2, 2005, at 20:37:01
oh.
blues and jazz and country?
Posted by Dinah on November 2, 2005, at 20:40:01
In reply to Re: the Ministry of Civility » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on November 2, 2005, at 20:35:52
It wasn't because of Iraq, Alexandra.
There were more than enough national guard to be sent.
It wasn't because of Iraq about the pilings either. Go to that site and look under the article about why the levees failed. You'll see what I wasn't saying
IT WASN'T IRAQ!!!!!!
But I don't suppose anything I say will convince you otherwise so I'll bow out before I have a stroke.
Posted by alexandra_k on November 2, 2005, at 20:46:47
In reply to AAARRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHH, posted by Dinah on November 2, 2005, at 20:40:01
> I'll bow out before I have a stroke.
(((Dinah)))
Please don't have a stroke...You know... It doesn't matter to me terribly much whether the New Orleans tragedy was worse than it would have been without the Iraq war or not.
If thats what you are having trouble with I'm prepared to drop that...
But I still don't support the war.
On humanitarian grounds.
okay?
Posted by Dinah on November 2, 2005, at 21:02:25
In reply to Re: AAARRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHH, posted by alexandra_k on November 2, 2005, at 20:46:47
That's fine, Alexandra. I don't mind you opposing it all you like. I'm not sure how I feel about it personally.
I listened to "A Hundred and One Days: A Baghdad Journal" that left me more ambivilant than ever.
But I do object to it being linked to something that it really didn't affect at all. Especially since that disaster has had such a great effect on me. I heard about the deaths today. I heard about the flood walls today. I'm a bit distraught.
And to have the military presence in New Orleans accused of doing things they didn't do. Because the National Guard was one of the few things that worked in this debacle.
Posted by alexandra_k on November 2, 2005, at 21:19:24
In reply to Re: AAARRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHH » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on November 2, 2005, at 21:02:25
> That's fine, Alexandra. I don't mind you opposing it all you like.
Goodo. Thats actually our country line too... 'We refuse to send people to die for a war we do not believe in'. Not sure what the last war we believed in was...
I'm just a pacifist.
I don't think we should kill people.
> I'm not sure how I feel about it personally.
> I listened to "A Hundred and One Days: A Baghdad Journal" that left me more ambivilant than ever.> But I do object to it being linked to something that it really didn't affect at all.
Yeah. Though indirect effects can be hard to measure... But yeah, I take your point.
> Especially since that disaster has had such a great effect on me. I heard about the deaths today. I heard about the flood walls today. I'm a bit distraught.
(((Dinah)))
> And to have the military presence in New Orleans accused of doing things they didn't do. Because the National Guard was one of the few things that worked in this debacle.
Yup. It is a little like police too. Just takes one corrupt cop to bring the whole profession into disrepute. And guilt by association is hard. And unfair. Unfair to all those who aren't corrupt.
I don't mean to run down people who join up because they want to positively benefit the country.
That is a noble aim.
I don't mean to run down the military who want to positively benefit the country.
That is a noble aim.
I am just a little dubious on how the person calling the shots (who isn't in the military themselves sometimes), well, I'm a little dubious that they know best what is likely to positively benefit the country.
And I'm more than a little dubious when that involves killing people.
But yeah, I do think I hear what you are saying.
I didn't mean to be hard on you and 10.
I think you are both teriffic people.
And Auntiemel of course.But the system...
Considered abstractly...
Scaires the sh*t out of me.
Posted by Declan on November 3, 2005, at 5:56:32
In reply to Re: god bless america!!!! » Declan, posted by alexandra_k on November 2, 2005, at 20:37:01
Fair go Alex, not rap, no no no. Good American popular music.
I've spent 40+ years listening to good American popular music, even before Roy Orbison.
US films are an insult with a couple of exceptions. Every year when they are all gathered together for the Academy Awards I find myself thinking......
Declan
Posted by AuntieMel on November 3, 2005, at 9:25:16
In reply to Re: ?? » AuntieMel, posted by alexandra_k on November 2, 2005, at 16:18:06
>> "Because schools have been inundated with American creationist literature being sent to them."
> "Oh no, I just meant that the literature is coming from America. "And the point? Lots of things come from America. Some good, some bad. But calling something "American" seems to me to imply that it either has the support of the majority of the people, or it has been done by the government.
-------------------------------------
"Ah. So when Americans die then that is because other people *intend* innocent people die.""I think we are more inclined to be charitable to our own"
"The noble and honourable intentions of the US, for example. "
"I don't believe... We get anything like an objective (or an appropriately inter-subjective) take on things."
Do you think it's hard to discern the intentions of someone who flies a plane into a building? Or bombs a school bus or a restaraunt? Or a subway system? Do you think it's possible that the target was something *other* than civilians and their deaths were collateral?
------------------------------------------------
"Because... The cycle has to stop somewhere. "
But we also know that appeasement doesn't work. And if you would like some verification of that I'll give you the email addresses of some of my friends in Poland.
I agree that war is a tragic waste. And I personally never believed the hype of WMD. *AND* I've never been a supporter of Bush.
But for this particular conflict? I've had mixed feelings since the beginning. Not because I was worried about WMD, but because I am horrified by a leader who will use chemical gas on his own people, and by many other things that this particular leader did. The rape, the murder, the torture....
Yes, sometimes war can be noble. Is this one? I don't know yet.
-----------------------------------------------
"I don't believe... We get anything like an objective (or an appropriately inter-subjective) take on things."
"LOL! You don't know what sites I have been looking at. We get a variety of news sources in NZ. British, American, Australian, increasingly New Zealand sources too... I think... Us New Zealanders are considered 'neutral' rather than 'friendly' towards the US for a reason..."
I don't look at my country through rose-colored glasses, believe me. I purposely read web sites that are *not* friendly to us, AlJazeera, Pravda, one in Pakistan, and so on. I try to (not always successfully) find the truth, which is usually somewhere in between the positive and the negative.
--------------------------------------------------
> Not the way we spend money? About NASA:
> "i think its all pretty interesting
> but... i'm sure people won't have too much of a hard time thinking of better uses for the $$$"Yup. Do you disagree?
Well, yes I do disagree. If not for NASA then I would probably not have gone into the sciences. I wouldn't have known to follow dreams. And before you say 'that was then' my youngest went to Space Camp twice - and she became fired up about sciences herself.
-------------------------------------------------
I think the one thing you don't understand about us is that we are not the government, we are the people. All individuals. Sure, it's good to have some safety net, but most here rely on each other more than the govt. in times of trouble. At least in my neck of the woods.
It's the PEOPLE that make me love this country.
People like my eldest who worked every day at the Astrodome, from the day before it was opened as a Katrina center until the day it closed.
Like my youngest who worked there when she was in town.
Like the complete strangers who went to the dome to adopt families and take them home with them.
Like the hundreds and thousands who donated their time to help.
Like, when the roads were deadlocked before Rita, the hundreds who drove to them and passed out food and water and ice and gasoline to the stranded.
Like the nurse my daughter talked to who risked her life at a New Orleans nursing home trying to save the elderly from drowning.
This is just MY personal experience of *only* the last couple of months. It's not extraordinary - these things happen on different scales all the time.
And they are happening in Iraq. Not by the government, but by soldiers and citizens. I've read dozens of stories of people being brought over here for medical treatment that wasn't available to them before.
But - that's not newsworthy, is it?
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 3, 2005, at 9:30:28
In reply to Re: ?? » AuntieMel, posted by alexandra_k on November 2, 2005, at 16:18:06
> the war is not in anyone's interest (Halliburton et al excepted)
>
> Declan> By 'you people' I didn't mean *all* americans. I meant the ones who think there is something particularly noble about risking their lives, the lives of their family and friends
>
> Because war is a tragic waste.
> To make it in to something 'heroic'
> Is to do a disservice to those who lost their lives
>
> alexandra_kPlease respect the views of others and be sensitive to their feelings.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by AuntieMel on November 3, 2005, at 9:56:08
In reply to Re: the Ministry of Civility, posted by alexandra_k on November 2, 2005, at 13:47:01
"I only get what I can see on the news...
And some stuff I've read off the internet...But my understanding was that the poorest areas were the hardest hit
And the slowest to get aidWas that wrong? "
---------------------
Many who see the film clips assume that "black" equals "poor" and assume because the shots show more stranded black people than white people then it must be racist and classist.
But - New Orleans is majority (67%) black. It only makes sense that the people in the film clips were also mostly black.
And Dinah is right about neighborhoods. The ones I see on TV that were most devistated were either neighborhoods of newer larger homes or areas of older 'gentrified' homes.
You can't always believe what you see on TV. In fact, you *usually* can't believe what you see on TV.
Posted by Dinah on November 3, 2005, at 14:47:02
In reply to Re: the Ministry of Propaganda » alexandra_k, posted by AuntieMel on November 3, 2005, at 9:56:08
I'm going to have to look for a map of New Orleans neighborhoods and give a description of how badly each was hit, and how each area got flooded.
More than anyone wants to know about Katrina. :)
But this is what has me upset
http://www.wwltv.com/topstories/stories/wwl110205levee.1fb472b0.html
That's where I was saying that the 17th Street Canal had flooding on the Orleans parish side where the pilings were 18 feet deep, but not on the Jefferson parish side, where pilings were 30 feet deep. Same corps of engineers, I can't imagine the design was different for two sides of a not very wide canal. Different contractors, different officials in charge of each side. The London Avenue canal also was a victim of failure either to poor design or poor construction.
I hope they do a thorough investigation and whoever was to blame for 18 instead of thirty feet walls is held accountable for the deaths that resulted.
There's a fair amount of outrage around here, and I'm sure a great deal more public attention will be paid to flood wall protection. Also there are calls for a regional rather than per parish levee board system, which should probably help a lot.
I don't know who's responsible, but it just doesn't make any sense. If you've seen pictures of the seventeenth street canal, you know how narrow it is. To have two different governmental bodies, two different contractors, and if it is possible, two different corps of engineers specs is beyond believable. To have one side twelve feet more shallow than the other side, ending slightly above a known peaty level is beyond beyond believable.
There's plenty of room for outrage, but I think it should be directed where it's deserved.
Posted by alexandra_k on November 3, 2005, at 16:02:25
In reply to Re: ?? » alexandra_k, posted by AuntieMel on November 3, 2005, at 9:25:16
>Lots of things come from America. Some good, some bad.
Sure. Same with most places in the world.
> But calling something "American" seems to me to imply that it either has the support of the majority of the people, or it has been done by the government.
Not at all. The Kiwi is a New Zealand bird. While it may well have the support of the people and the government, it would continue to be a New Zealand bird even if we hunted it into extinction.
> Do you think it's hard to discern the intentions of someone who flies a plane into a building? Or bombs a school bus or a restaraunt? Or a subway system? Do you think it's possible that the target was something *other* than civilians and their deaths were collateral?I don't think people should do that. But then... I heard a wedding party was bombed by the US military. I don't think people should do that either.
Another issue is how much the war is effective with respect to getting people to stop doing those things. With respect to 9/11 there you are dealing with a suicide bomber, for example. Part of being a suicide bomber means he is already dead. I worry about the slippery target of 'terrorism'. I worry about how many innocent people die in the name of protecting the innocent (though how much is it about that, and how much is it about revenge?). How much is it about an attempt to save face? You can't get away with doing that to us! Somebody must pay! And the public requires a scapegoat. Fairly easy to get them to support a war. And as for film coverage... How much is made in a hollywood basement?
> "Because... The cycle has to stop somewhere. "> But we also know that appeasement doesn't work. And if you would like some verification of that I'll give you the email addresses of some of my friends in Poland.
Sorry, I'm not too sure what 'appeasement' means. Doesn't work to do what?
> I agree that war is a tragic waste.PBC
<joke>
;-)
> because I am horrified by a leader who will use chemical gas on his own people, and by many other things that this particular leader did. The rape, the murder, the torture....Yeah. And I'm sure there was a lot of information out there on this particular leader (mostly American in origin). People do worse. There are people doing worse in other parts of the world. Is the american government planning on taking them all on? Or just those whose countries have oil?
> Yes, sometimes war can be noble. Is this one? I don't know yet.I think Hitler needed to be stopped. I'm not opposed to war under all circumstances. I have more sympathy for defending ones boundaries than I do for 'pre-emptive' strike...
> I don't look at my country through rose-colored glasses, believe me.I know. You are one of the most informed people I chat to. I'm not so good on knowledge of what the media presents. In a way... I don't want to get too caught up in it. But people like you correct my facts and I do think quite a lot about the information I'm presented with...
>I purposely read web sites that are *not* friendly to us, AlJazeera, Pravda, one in Pakistan, and so on. I try to (not always successfully) find the truth, which is usually somewhere in between the positive and the negative.
I've given up hope of finding the truth. I just don't want people do be killed anymore.
>i'm sure people won't have too much of a hard time thinking of better uses for the $$$"
> Yup. Do you disagree?
> Well, yes I do disagree. If not for NASA then I would probably not have gone into the sciences. I wouldn't have known to follow dreams. And before you say 'that was then' my youngest went to Space Camp twice - and she became fired up about sciences herself.Yeah. And that is a terrific thing. I hear you. But... What I was thinking... Was that money could probably be better spent on... Oh... On equal access to healthcare for all; equal access to education; equal access to 'basic' needs like food and shelter and so on. I bet those kinds of things... Would inspire far more americans to make something of their lives...
Or building better dams in new orleans even...
> I think the one thing you don't understand about us is that we are not the government, we are the people. All individuals. Sure, it's good to have some safety net, but most here rely on each other more than the govt. in times of trouble. At least in my neck of the woods.
I DO understand that. But I think that in reading what I have to say you don't get that I DO make that distinction. When I said about how some americans are very lovely people - I meant that. Most of the Babblers I've met are American. And are lovely people.
But this is the politics board.
And on the politics board I'm not talking about individuals.
I'm talking about political systems.
I'm talking about government policies.
I'm talking about countries as abstract entities
Where their laws and policies define what the nature of that country is when we consider that country as an abstract entity.I think some people are a little uncomfortable with this...
Like how Dr Bob looks at Babble from the group level and people worry he doesn't see the individuals.
I talk about America from the country level and people worry I don't see the individuals.
But I do see the individuals. And I babble with the individuals over on psychology, or social, or admin, or writing.
But over here...
Its political
Not personal
Really.
> It's the PEOPLE that make me love this country.
>
> People like my eldest who worked every day at the Astrodome, from the day before it was opened as a Katrina center until the day it closed.
>
> Like my youngest who worked there when she was in town.
>
> Like the complete strangers who went to the dome to adopt families and take them home with them.
>
> Like the hundreds and thousands who donated their time to help.
>
> Like, when the roads were deadlocked before Rita, the hundreds who drove to them and passed out food and water and ice and gasoline to the stranded.
>
> Like the nurse my daughter talked to who risked her life at a New Orleans nursing home trying to save the elderly from drowning.
>
> This is just MY personal experience of *only* the last couple of months. It's not extraordinary - these things happen on different scales all the time.
>
> And they are happening in Iraq. Not by the government, but by soldiers and citizens. I've read dozens of stories of people being brought over here for medical treatment that wasn't available to them before.
>
> But - that's not newsworthy, is it?
I know there are a lot of kind and big hearted people in the US.I just wish... That came through at the level of government a little more.
People don't need handouts if you help them be self-suficient.
People wouldn't have needed handouts if the government had done its job of looking after the citizens properly and had followed the engineers reccomendations regarding reinforcing the dam or dyke or whatever ya call it.
Now maybe this is wrong (please correct me if it is)
But I heard...
That the engineers had been saying that the walls needed reinforcing or precisely this was going to happen. I dunno what its called... But congress or whatever were going to spend this money on doing that... And then Bush declares 'state of war!' and diverts the resources to Iraq.
You need engineers in Iraq you see...
Is that right?????
Posted by alexandra_k on November 3, 2005, at 16:08:00
In reply to Re: the Ministry of Propaganda » alexandra_k, posted by AuntieMel on November 3, 2005, at 9:56:08
> Many who see the film clips assume that "black" equals "poor" and assume because the shots show more stranded black people than white people then it must be racist and classist.
> But - New Orleans is majority (67%) black. It only makes sense that the people in the film clips were also mostly black.I never mentioned skin colour.
I only mentioned economic status.> And Dinah is right about neighborhoods. The ones I see on TV that were most devistated were either neighborhoods of newer larger homes or areas of older 'gentrified' homes.
Yeah. Are we likely to have more sympathy for a flooded tenement or a flooded 'gentrified' house?
> You can't always believe what you see on TV. In fact, you *usually* can't believe what you see on TV.I know that. Haven't seen anything on TV about this actually. Read a little of the paper.
Poverty.
I would be interested to know whether aid would have been sent faster if the earning potential of the AVERAGE person in there had been higher.
I would be interested to know whether the engineers would have been sent in to prevent this if New Orleans didn't have such high rates of poverty in the place to start with.
Posted by Declan on November 3, 2005, at 16:23:20
In reply to Re: please be supportive » Declan » alexandra_k, posted by Dr. Bob on November 3, 2005, at 9:30:28
I suppose my point was that the war is not in the interests of the United States (in particular). Halliburton has done well out of it (contracts). What's the problem with that?
I think that it is too much of a challenge to have a civil politics board in today's climate. And anyway, some things just have to be fought out. Wait till there is really something (oil, climate, food) to fight about. In our lifetimes, I'm sure.
Declan
Posted by Dinah on November 3, 2005, at 16:37:17
In reply to Re: ?? » AuntieMel, posted by alexandra_k on November 3, 2005, at 16:02:25
Didn't you read the link I sent? Or heard what I said about two sides of the canal being built differently?
There's something that stinks to high heaven, but it's local not national.
On the other hand, regardless of where the money's going (because not all our money is going to Iraq, you know), I think the US is going to write off New Orleans. President Bush's administration has pretty much said they're going to rebuild to Category 3 levels only. They're also not going to spend the dollars that need to be spent to build up the marshes. Without the marshes, we're a coastal city. We can't survive as a coastal city. We're too low. So at this point, I'd say that anyone who comes back to New Orleans or who stays here does so without national help and without much care from the government. But I don't think it has anything to do with race or income. I think it just has to do with the fact that they just don't care.
Perhaps we could get some of the money we get by increasing taxes enormously on any oil or natural gas that depends on Louisiana for production. I'd hate to see us do that to the rest of the country, but if we're not important to them, we're not important and we'll have to do whatever we have to do to look after ourselves. Or else lose all our investment in our homes and businesses and just leave the city, like it looks like the feds just as soon we do. Either that or have several more Katrinas that will cost more than the flood protection.
Posted by zeugma on November 3, 2005, at 17:25:23
In reply to Re: ?? » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on November 3, 2005, at 16:37:17
> Didn't you read the link I sent? Or heard what I said about two sides of the canal being built differently?
>
> There's something that stinks to high heaven, but it's local not national.
>No. it's a national problem as you explain later.
> On the other hand, regardless of where the money's going (because not all our money is going to Iraq, you know), I think the US is going to write off New Orleans. President Bush's administration has pretty much said they're going to rebuild to Category 3 levels only. They're also not going to spend the dollars that need to be spent to build up the marshes. Without the marshes, we're a coastal city. We can't survive as a coastal city. We're too low. So at this point, I'd say that anyone who comes back to New Orleans or who stays here does so without national help and without much care from the government. But I don't think it has anything to do with race or income. I think it just has to do with the fact that they just don't care.>>
Someone mentioned that they read al Jazeera or something for 'balance.'
But our current leaders indict themselves quite well. Not rebuild deltas? Let the environment go to hell? I live in New York, and we are far from immune to hurricanes and next year it might be Hurricane Gamma that takes us out. But there won't be charges of racism etc. leveled at President Bush. New York is not mostly black. It's mostly Democrat.
>
> Perhaps we could get some of the money we get by increasing taxes enormously on any oil or natural gas that depends on Louisiana for production. I'd hate to see us do that to the rest of the country, but if we're not important to them, we're not important and we'll have to do whatever we have to do to look after ourselves. Or else lose all our investment in our homes and businesses and just leave the city, like it looks like the feds just as soon we do. Either that or have several more Katrinas that will cost more than the flood protection.>>You indict the current administration far better than I could in a torrent of words. It is an error to suppose that New Orleans is the only city that could have been vulnerable; last time I looked at a relief map of Florida I didnt see Alpine heights.
I have no doubt that the national Guard performed heroically. But it is a fact that most of the Louisana National Guard was in Iraq when the hurricane hit.
It is also a fact that Michael brown, FEMA director at the time of the hurricane, had beetr things to do than listen to the pleas of the official he sent to N.O. to investigate what was happening. Hate to use the cliche, but 'fiddling while Rome burned.'
I must say one thing in favor of President Bush, however.
Most public officials pretend sadness over departing subordinates who have lost favor with the public and so have to go. Better off whithout the fool who made me look bad, they think. But I believe Bush was quite sincere in his estimation of brown's competence and compassion.
Competence and compassion. I can add foresightedness to that list.
-z
-z
Posted by alexandra_k on November 3, 2005, at 17:48:01
In reply to Re: ?? » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on November 3, 2005, at 16:37:17
> Didn't you read the link I sent?
Yes, I read it. And that is one story and I have also heard many others... That is one source, Dinah. Local news is one tiny little set of American news which is still one little set when compared with international news sources.
>Or heard what I said about two sides of the canal being built differently?
Yeah. Sounds like they got to building it properly and then got to not building it properly. Or vice versa...
> There's something that stinks to high heaven, but it's local not national.I heard that engineers predicted that this was going to happen if money wasn't spent on upgrading pronto. That that was presented to congress? And it was going to happen, congress (or whoever) were in fairly much unanomous support of it. But in a state of national emergency (war basically) the president is allowed to over-ride congress. And that by declaring war on Iraq... He was allowed to over-ride congress and that that is why teh engineers were in Iraq instead of being in New Orleans designing improvements to teh dam. Because good engineers are a scarce resource, Dinah. And they were in Iraq and not in New Orleans.
(excuse my ignorance congress might be the wrong term)
Is this false?
I'm wary of potential scapegoating...
Blaming New Orleans for the tragedy is one way for the government to say they are justified in leaving them to deal with the situation with less government support. Blame someone on the local level and try and use that to absolve the government from responsibility to its citizens...
> On the other hand, regardless of where the money's going (because not all our money is going to Iraq, you know),I do know. But I also know the money that went to Iraq... Well... That would probably keep NZ going for the next 10 years or so...
Just imagine the fancy canal you guys could have built with that money. Imagine the social services that could be put in place. Imagine the new homes and schools and community centres and churches that money could have built for New Orleans. All that stuff wouldn't have brought back the dead. Wouldn't have erased teh traumatic memories. But it would have helped. It would have helped immenseley.
> I think the US is going to write off New Orleans. President Bush's administration has pretty much said they're going to rebuild to Category 3 levels only. They're also not going to spend the dollars that need to be spent to build up the marshes. Without the marshes, we're a coastal city. We can't survive as a coastal city. We're too low. So at this point, I'd say that anyone who comes back to New Orleans or who stays here does so without national help and without much care from the government.
I think that sounds terrible :-(
I think... The role of government is to serve the people. I think they should think very carefully about whether it is a better service to the people to have them rebuild vs relocate. I think that decision should be made democratically. Do you think that sounds right, or do you not think that is part of the role of government?
> But I don't think it has anything to do with race or income. I think it just has to do with the fact that they just don't care.
You don't think that the fact that they don't care might have something to do with income? I'm serious here. I don't particularly want to get on the race bandwagon... But it is true that more black people are poor than white people. Auntiemel said something like 60% of New Orleans population is Black. Were around 40% of people in the dome white - or much less than that? Was the average income of those people very much lower than the average income of the population as a whole? I have to say... I think that is why they don't care. Because the wealthy are probably better off out. They will be okay (traumatised clearly - but okay). But what about the poor? What are they going to do? Continue to live in New Orleans with lack of public services? I'm sure the other states are welcoming them with arms open wide (joke).
I dunno Dinah...
There was a comment... Something about america being stronger after this... I have heard comments... About how very much that sounded like the country is better off after some elimination of the 'unsuccessful' went on...
> if we're not important to them, we're not important and we'll have to do whatever we have to do to look after ourselves.Yeah. And personally - I don't think that is fair. Thats what frightens me about american individualism. That attitude. I don't think that is acceptable. Its when people are confronted with that attitude that they feel all the more justified in turning to crime or whatever in order to make a living to make ends meet in the face of an uncaring nation (when considered at the policy level)
> Or else lose all our investment in our homes and businesses and just leave the city, like it looks like the feds just as soon we do.
Yeah. It is okay if you can afford to cut your lossed I suppose. For those who were struggling to make it just out of poverty... They are back into poverty.
And for those who were in poverty to start with... What are they going to do?
:-(
Posted by alexandra_k on November 3, 2005, at 18:17:09
In reply to Re: please be supportive » Declan » alexandra_k, posted by Dr. Bob on November 3, 2005, at 9:30:28
I'll admit it didn't occur to me that people on the boards may have served or lost the lives of people they cared about to start with...
But when I did realise...
I should have been a lot more sentitive.
Sorry.
Posted by Dinah on November 3, 2005, at 18:43:30
In reply to Re: ?? » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on November 3, 2005, at 17:48:01
Alexandra, it's true that they warned that certain hurricanes would do this. But that wasn't this hurricane, not for the majority of the city. This hurricane was within the force levels the walls were designed to hold. At the very least for the 17th Street Canal and the London Avenue canals that have most raised my ire. The Industrial Canal and MR GO are different.
And yes, this is just one news source (though all the local news is about the same), but with all due politeness, I've got to say that I trust the local news to know what's going on in the local area more than I trust the international news who probably don't know the difference between Gentilly and Bywater. And the locals are far far more familiar with the background of the agencies involved than any national, never mind international, news source can be. Why, I saw a picture of the "devastation" showed on the national news that was actually a camp built in the middle of the Bonnet Carre Spillway that is *supposed* to be surrounded by water.
And as far as National Guard numbers, since there were enough when they were sent, I assume there were enough the days earlier when they *should* have been sent. They didn't bring them back from Iraq in that time frame.
And yes, Auntie Mel is correct that New Orleans proper is largely black. But the greater metropolitan area is not. And the greater metropolitan area needs the flood protection, not New Orleans. The entire area is all being thrown to the wolves, not just New Orleans proper.
And as a New Orleanian, as much as I'd like to blame the feds for everything, I just can't. Local officials have earned their reputations honestly, so to speak. Not all of the current ones, certainly. But enough of the ones over the years to have contributed mightily to this problem.
I just don't know how much the rest of the country understands the unique challenges of New Orleans. And I don't really feel up to explaining them. Not under the circumstances of this board, anyway. If anyone's genuinely interested in what's really going on, babblemail me and I'll tell you. But not this way. Not under these circumstances.
I'm not even going to check this board for replies.
I'm bowing out with whatever tattered grace I have left.
Posted by Dinah on November 3, 2005, at 18:58:57
In reply to Re: ?? » Dinah, posted by zeugma on November 3, 2005, at 17:25:23
I think I partly answered you in my post to Alexandra.
But if you want to say that the President's priorities are not for preserving the environment, not even if preserving the environment is actually cheaper than the consequences of not preserving the environment, I'll agree completely. And if you were to say that policies that would prefer to make huge payoffs in the face of a disaster rather than huge, but less huge, outlays to prevent a disaster, then I'd have to agree completely.
And anything most anyone could say about Brown wouldn't surprise or offend me in the least. That email about dinner in Baton Rouge really astonished me. Not much could surprise me after that.
I think there is some difference between most other areas and New Orleans, though. I *think* we're the only major metropolitan area under sea level. I think you'd have to go to the Netherlands for comparisons.
What I don't agree about is that events would have been one whit different had troops not been sent to Iraq. Or that this is the result of racism or classism. I'm relatively certain any city would get the same treatment.
Sigh. I must be out of my mind to even consider staying here, no matter how much my son likes his school.
Posted by alexandra_k on November 3, 2005, at 19:23:12
In reply to Re: ??, posted by Dinah on November 3, 2005, at 18:43:30
> Alexandra, it's true that they warned that certain hurricanes would do this. But that wasn't this hurricane, not for the majority of the city. This hurricane was within the force levels the walls were designed to hold. At the very least for the 17th Street Canal and the London Avenue canals that have most raised my ire. The Industrial Canal and MR GO are different.
Okay. But I still want to say... I heard that the engineers told congress (or whoever) that a fairly standard hurricane in New Orleans would have fairly much the effects that it had UNLESS they did something about that pronto and that congress was going to do something about that pronto but then a state of war was declaired and thus nothing was done.
Is that false?
> And yes, this is just one news source (though all the local news is about the same), but with all due politeness, I've got to say that I trust the local news to know what's going on in the local area more than I trust the international news who probably don't know the difference between Gentilly and Bywater.
Sure. I understand that. News sources are selective in what they present. There is the simple fact that they have to be because there is just too much going on for them to present everything. I'm sure you have much more of an idea of the local situation and I'm sure that the local news is also going to present a fairer representation.
> And the locals are far far more familiar with the background of the agencies involved than any national, never mind international, news source can be. Why, I saw a picture of the "devastation" showed on the national news that was actually a camp built in the middle of the Bonnet Carre Spillway that is *supposed* to be surrounded by water.
Yeah. Not quite 'made in a hollywood basement' but close...
> And as far as National Guard numbers, since there were enough when they were sent, I assume there were enough the days earlier when they *should* have been sent. They didn't bring them back from Iraq in that time frame.Though I suppose we could haggle over whether there were 'enough' in the sense of IF there were more THEN how much faster would appropriate aid have been dispensed?
> And yes, Auntie Mel is correct that New Orleans proper is largely black. But the greater metropolitan area is not. And the greater metropolitan area needs the flood protection, not New Orleans. The entire area is all being thrown to the wolves, not just New Orleans proper.
Okay.
> And as a New Orleanian, as much as I'd like to blame the feds for everything, I just can't.I'm not saying to 'blame them for everything'. I'm just saying that I think they should be doing more than they are. The government should be about helping and protecting its citizens. I'm not sure they are doing everything they should be doing there. And yet... Your tax money funds them.
> Local officials have earned their reputations honestly, so to speak. Not all of the current ones, certainly. But enough of the ones over the years to have contributed mightily to this problem.
Sure.
> I just don't know how much the rest of the country understands the unique challenges of New Orleans. And I don't really feel up to explaining them. Not under the circumstances of this board, anyway. If anyone's genuinely interested in what's really going on, babblemail me and I'll tell you. But not this way. Not under these circumstances.
> I'm not even going to check this board for replies.??
> I'm bowing out with whatever tattered grace I have left.
??
I'd be interested...
But I don't really want to get into a babblemail discussion over it.
(I've gotten a warning thus far and I probably should be kept in check ;-)
It is interesting to me to hear other peoples pov.
Posted by zeugma on November 3, 2005, at 19:34:46
In reply to Re: ?? » zeugma, posted by Dinah on November 3, 2005, at 18:58:57
Dinah, you may be 'thin skinned' as you described yourself once, but you are a truly strong individual. I know how New York was traumatized by 9/11, but your entire city was flooded.
From everything I have read the local authorities did not distinguish themselves, unlike the NYPD and New York Port Authority, many of whom willingly died to save others.
I can't evaluate Governor Blanco or the mayor ( I forget his name), unlike the prominent members of the Federal Government their every word is not analyzed in depth here. I did read about police officers committing suicide, and officers now being persecuted for desertion. It's easier to understand the suicide than desertion.
I relied on local news sources (New York Times) for my information on the events as they were happening. Whether the Guard was present or not it was not deployed properly. And I posted a while ago about two leutenants who went out of their way to save lives with their helicopters because they saw none of our vaunted military doing anything to help. In return one was given command of a kennel for dogs of Army officers made homeless by the flooding. They were both reprimanded for ignoring what the military thought were proper priorities. Now I know that if I had been dangling from a beam on top of the World Trade center, and a military helicopter making some kind of routine flight (it is astonishing how the military responded to the disaster! astonishing!) plucked me to safety, i would be grateful. I wouldn't care if the pilot didn't get the Medal of Honor. Serving in a dog kennel is noble service compared to other activities the military is currently engaged in IMO.
No good deed goes unpunished around here, it seems.
But I hear even Trent Lott is distancing himself from the President. I suppose when it's your own house that is blown down it doesn't sit so well, no matter how many houses you'd let smoke elsewhere.
I think with hurricane Katrina, we officially became a Third World country.
-z
Posted by zeugma on November 3, 2005, at 20:02:51
In reply to Re: the Ministry of Civility, posted by alexandra_k on November 2, 2005, at 13:47:01
Why were the mortality rates so high in the better off neighborhoods? Why couldn't those people get out?>>
They didn't have cars.
-z
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