![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 9 to 33 of 60. Go back in thread:
Posted by so on May 19, 2005, at 2:18:04
In reply to Re: Did a Texan do anything to you? » AuntieMel, posted by alexandra_k on May 19, 2005, at 0:20:54
> > I guess part of this question depends on how you defind "nature."
> > I believe that it *is* natural for humans to eat meat, and this is proven to me by the structure of our teeth.
>
> That looks a lot similar to this:
> I believe that is is natural for males to use physical force to control (rape) females as this is proven to me by the fact that males (tend to be) bigger than females.
>What is "natural" as offered in this context is entirely a personal construct. Scientifically, all organic processes are natural. Colloquially, however, "natural" sometimes refers to things that are not anthropocentric. A more informative -- and perhaps democratic -- construct involves appreciaton of what is culturally acceptable.
Eating meat is considered normal becuase it has been culturally accepted by a majority of the human race for tens of thousands, or rather hundreds of thousands of years, as is shown by archeological evidence and by anthropoligical study.
Rape is generally considered abhorent by most cultures, even though some individuals and some micro-cultures advocate sexual predation.
Posted by alexandra_k on May 19, 2005, at 3:26:41
In reply to The difference between eating meat and rape » alexandra_k, posted by so on May 19, 2005, at 2:18:04
> Eating meat is considered normal becuase it has been culturally accepted by a majority of the human race for tens of thousands, or rather hundreds of thousands of years, as is shown by archeological evidence and by anthropoligical study.
Just because something had been 'culturally accepted by a majority of the human race' for however long doesn't make it morally acceptable.
Racism was culturally accepted for a heck of a long time.
Sexism.
These things might be 'normal' in the statistical sense but that doesn't make them morally acceptable.> Rape is generally considered abhorent by most cultures, even though some individuals and some micro-cultures advocate sexual predation.
What seems to have changed is the definition of rape. It used to be that it was impossible to rape your wife BECAUSE SHE WAS YOUR WIFE TO DO WHATEVER THE HELL YOU WANTED TO DO WITH HER.
That change is actually a fairly recent move...
And if you are looking at actual practice of what human beings do in fact do over thousands or even tens of thousands of years you will find that it is statistically *normal* for males to use force to make females sleep with them because they can (ie they tend to be stronger).But that does not make it morally acceptable.
Posted by so on May 19, 2005, at 9:03:38
In reply to Re: The difference between eating meat and rape » so, posted by alexandra_k on May 19, 2005, at 3:26:41
>
> What seems to have changed is the definition of rape. It used to be that it was impossible to rape your wife BECAUSE SHE WAS YOUR WIFE TO DO WHATEVER THE HELL YOU WANTED TO DO WITH HER.When and in what culture are you referring to? European cultures? Are you saying collegial behavior between the sexes is purely a product of post-industrial revolution and maybe Western culture?
> That change is actually a fairly recent move...
> And if you are looking at actual practice of what human beings do in fact do over thousands or even tens of thousands of years you will find that it is statistically *normal* for males to use force to make females sleep with them because they can (ie they tend to be stronger).I would be interested to see those statistics from a peer-reviewed source.
>
> But that does not make it morally acceptable.
>It made it morally acceptable to those people in that time and place. Or are you suggesting your morals now dictate what is morally acceptable now and always for everybody?
There might be a time when pouring sulfur dioxide into the air is considered immoral, but today few so consider it. Some people today consider dancing immoral, but others don't.
Posted by alexandra_k on May 19, 2005, at 16:21:04
In reply to Re: The difference between eating meat and rape » alexandra_k, posted by so on May 19, 2005, at 9:03:38
> It made it morally acceptable to those people in that time and place.
Ah... Moral relativism...
>Or are you suggesting your morals now dictate what is morally acceptable now and always for everybody?
Not *my morals*... But I believe there are universal ethical truths that hold for all times places cultures etc...
One example might be:
Torturing a baby for fun is morally wrong.
> There might be a time when pouring sulfur dioxide into the air is considered immoral, but today few so consider it. Some people today consider dancing immoral, but others don't.Just because people may think morals are relative that doesn't mean morals are relative.
If whatever a culture says goes...
Then the holocaust is only wrong from our perspective now.
If Hitler had won the war then I guess it would still be morally acceptable.
Likewise the notion that black people aren't moral persons (they are no more than animals) and thus we don't really need to take their interests into account.
Likewise the notion that animals (aside from our particular beloved pets) don't require to have their interest in remaining alive taken seriously when it comes to the 'fun' of us killing them.
Do you really want to accept that conclusion???
My specific point about rape was just supposed to illustrate that just because people do do something or just because a culture does think that something is morally ok that doesn't make it morally ok in the greater scheme of things.
Posted by so on May 20, 2005, at 0:10:43
In reply to Re: The difference between eating meat and rape » so, posted by alexandra_k on May 19, 2005, at 16:21:04
>
> Not *my morals*... But I believe there are universal ethical truths that hold for all times places cultures etc...
>
> One example might be:
>
> Torturing a baby for fun is morally wrong.
>I think you are saying torturing babies is wrong because it's wrong, not because most people think it's wrong. It is a tempting and popular notion, but I don't find it the only way to see things.
It might be that inhumane behavior weakens a society, so immorality is a set of behaviors known by the informed to be threatening to social structures. But that wouldn't be wrong is wrong because it's wrong ... that would be wrong is wrong because it keeps people from getting what they want e.g. stable societies.
I would prefer to live among people who hold against the torture of babies for any reason, and I am willing to use violence to have my way in that particular matter. Nonetheless, I was born into a world where babies are allowed to suffer for no apparent reason, and their suffering can be described as nothing more than "natural", as described on death certificates citing "natural causes". I don't think many of us would conclude, however, that nature is immoral.
All we can say conclusively is that probably a majority of people throughout history have considered it wrong to severely torture a baby for fun, or to let babies suffer needlessly when it can be avoided. Even the legal standard of moral competency -- "able to appreciate the difference between right and wrong" -- relies on society's notion of right and wrong. A person is not found competent to face prosecution because they felt guilty and knew they were wrong, but rather, because they knew society disagreed with their behavior. That is why evidence of concealment of a crime shamelessly committed in secrecy is evidence of comptency to face trial.
To understand the difficulty of saying anything is anything, we first have to understand that our very language is a construct -- something we made up. We can say an object has a certain portion of carbon because we have described carbon, and declared quantities by which it is a consistently measurable concept. But right and wrong, no matter how definative we might hope those ideas to be, are just that -- constructs describing the right or wrong way toward a certain goal. And that goal is something we choose to construct, unless beliefs about a supernatural entity having goals for our lives are in fact truths.
Moral absolutism seeks to prove that right and wrong are as consistent human concepts, if not more so, than are descriptions of the atomic nature of elements. However, there is far less concensus around any morally absolute standards than there is around basic science.
All we can say for sure is that you and I prefer people not to torture babies for fun, and I bet if I see it happening, no matter what differences we hold on other matters, I might be able to recruit you and others to risk mortal peril to assure that we get what we want in that regard.
then back to your meat eating quandry, which I did not appreciate being compared to rape, a stronger stance for person's who have compassion for animals and who care to protect animals would be to cite benefits of not eating meat, which can include the benefits of compassion to all living things. It's not that lack of compassion is bad, but rather, that if we want certian things such as peace among people, we do best to expand our capacity for compassion. But that's only if we want peace. It doesn't make peace right. It's just something we might want. Declaring it right might win a few converts, but it might also alienate warriors, hunters and carnivores. Espousing the benifits of peace might more likely persuade swing voters.
Posted by alexandra_k on May 20, 2005, at 5:53:50
In reply to Re: The difference between eating meat and rape, posted by so on May 20, 2005, at 0:10:43
> I think you are saying torturing babies is wrong because it's wrong, not because most people think it's wrong.
Thats the idea, yes.
If most people thought it was morally acceptable - then most people would be wrong ;-)>It is a tempting and popular notion, but I don't find it the only way to see things.
Actually, it is an unpopular notion at present. People don't like moral realism (there are universal, objective moral truths) because they think it leads to cultural insensitivity.
> It might be that inhumane behavior weakens a society, so immorality is a set of behaviors known by the informed to be threatening to social structures. But that wouldn't be wrong is wrong because it's wrong ... that would be wrong is wrong because it keeps people from getting what they want e.g. stable societies.Ok. So on this view you might say that the 'good' is stable society. Anything that promotes stable society is morally acceptable and anything that works to the detriment of stable society is morally wrong. This could be your candidate of a universal moral law. It is a little like utilitarianism where morality is about 'the greatest good for the greatest number of people'. They then need to say more about the greatest good and more about how we are supposed to work the stats (figure out the greatest number). You would need to say more about what a stable society is. If you can think of an example of 'inhumane behaviour' that didn't negatively impact on societies stability then your theory might run into problems...
> I would prefer to live among people who hold against the torture of babies for any reason,Lets say you are held at gunpoint...
'Torture this baby - or we will torture fifty babies'.
What should you do?
If you torture the one baby then you have done something morally wrong (if it is a universal law that torturing bables is wrong)...
But if you do not torture the one baby then you will have allowed 49 babies to be tortured when you could have prevented it...
The point is: is it always wrong to torture a baby or can we think an exception. In this case it seems that the morally right desision would be to torture the one to save the 49.Thats why there is the 'for fun' clause.
To rule out the above objection...>and I am willing to use violence to have my way in that particular matter.
Hmm.
Heard of the saying 'violence breeds violence'???>Nonetheless, I was born into a world where babies are allowed to suffer for no apparent reason, and their suffering can be described as nothing more than "natural", as described on death certificates citing "natural causes". I don't think many of us would conclude, however, that nature is immoral.
Of course not. Nature isn't a moral agent. It can't be a moral agent because it isn't even an agent in the first place. Only moral agents are held morally accountable for their actions.
> All we can say conclusively is that probably a majority of people throughout history have considered it wrong to severely torture a baby for fun, or to let babies suffer needlessly when it can be avoided.Sure. But you can't derive an ought from an is. It doesn't follow from any completed description of the way the world is - what people should and shouldn't do. Sometimes people do do wrong. That seems to be a fact.
> To understand the difficulty of saying anything is anything, we first have to understand that our very language is a construct -- something we made up. We can say an object has a certain portion of carbon because we have described carbon, and declared quantities by which it is a consistently measurable concept. But right and wrong, no matter how definative we might hope those ideas to be, are just that -- constructs describing the right or wrong way toward a certain goal. And that goal is something we choose to construct, unless beliefs about a supernatural entity having goals for our lives are in fact truths.
Yes. We do need to choose our goal.
It is arguable whether ethics requires a goal or not. Utilitarianism considers that there is the goal or the desire to 'achieve the greatest good for the greatest number'. Kant didn't like this line. He thought desire / goals had no place in ethics. He thought that ethics was about REASON. He thought that immoral actions were inconsistent in that the moral agent does something that they could not will to be a universal moral law (they could not will that everyone do to them what they just did..). He thought ethics was solely a rational affair.With respect to words...
It is true that we arbitrarily attach words as 'name tags' to things. Some of our words don't seem to refer to anything in the real world, however. Some of our words... like god etc... it can be hard to tell.I think that right and wrong
Good and bad are relative to goals.
But that being said - If I had the goal to kill as many people as possible then we would tend to say that that is a morally reprehensible goal. So maybe goals can be morally evaluated too.. Maybe Kant was right and right and wrong is purely a rational affair...I don't know...
I'm no ethicist.
>However, there is far less concensus around any morally absolute standards than there is around basic science.Just as much.
I dare say. Just as much. Basic science is more controversial than you might think...
> All we can say for sure is that you and I prefer people not to torture babies for fun,But I want to say more than that.
I want to say people SHOULD NOT torture babies.
That torturing babies for fun is morally unacceptable.
Not just 'my preferance is that you don't and your preference is that you do and I can't tell you what to do and everyone is just entitled to their own opinion...'.
Nope.
IMO that is a little too tolerant...> then back to your meat eating quandry, which I did not appreciate being compared to rape,
I prefer the racisism analogy myself... Perhaps I should stick to that one...
>It's not that lack of compassion is bad,
??? Are you sure?
>but rather, that if we want certian things such as peace among people, we do best to expand our capacity for compassion.
>But that's only if we want peace. It doesn't make peace right.Thats a different claim from the one I was making. That claim assumes that morality is dependent on our having certain goals / desires. That wasn't what I wanted to say.
My thought was that there may be an inconsistency between:
Thinking internet hunting is wrong AND that hunting IRL is morally acceptable.
Thinking what people *do* do shows us something about what people *should* do AND considering that things people have done to be morally unacceptable (with respect to individuals and also cultures - e.g., the holocaust)
Thinking racism is unacceptable AND speciesm is acceptable (with regard to the interests of other races / species being taken as seriously as our own).>Declaring it right might win a few converts,
My aim isn't to 'declare it right'. That is too easy. I declare it right you declare it wrong and we haven't gotten anywhere. I try to argue for why it is inconsistent to go one way on one case and a different way on another... If you want to engage you need to come up with some reason why the cases are relevantly different...
>but it might also alienate warriors, hunters and carnivores. Espousing the benifits of peace might more likely persuade swing voters.
I'm not trying to win votes.
Just trying to get people to think...Maybe there is a defensible difference and I just can't see it...
Posted by alexandra_k on May 20, 2005, at 6:09:49
In reply to Re: The difference between eating meat and rape » so, posted by alexandra_k on May 20, 2005, at 5:53:50
I'm not a vegetarian anymore.
Sometimes people do do wrong :-(
I think I am being inconsistent...
But there it is.
Posted by so on May 20, 2005, at 16:06:58
In reply to Re: Just for the record..., posted by alexandra_k on May 20, 2005, at 6:09:49
> I'm not a vegetarian anymore.
>
> Sometimes people do do wrong :-(
>
> I think I am being inconsistent...
> But there it is.Not to worry. Lots of animals eat other animals.
Their courtships and loyalties don't often approach the sophistication of human sexual negotiations, but sexual predation among animals is much less common than is carnivoury. If our ancestor's behavior is a guide, sexual predation serves much less purpose than does carnivoury.
Enjoy your well-rounded dose of B-vitamins in full confidence that someday, some population of microorganism will flourish on a diet of alexandra_k.
Posted by alexandra_k on May 20, 2005, at 18:35:16
In reply to Re: Just for the record... » alexandra_k, posted by so on May 20, 2005, at 16:06:58
> Not to worry. Lots of animals eat other animals.
But they don't know any better.
Animals aren't moral agents.
We, on the other hand
With our comparatively developed brains
Should know better.It doesn't excuse the inconsistency...
Posted by so on May 20, 2005, at 21:27:03
In reply to Re: Just for the record... » so, posted by alexandra_k on May 20, 2005, at 18:35:16
> > Not to worry. Lots of animals eat other animals.
>
> But they don't know any better.
> Animals aren't moral agents.
> We, on the other hand
> With our comparatively developed brains
> Should know better.
>
> It doesn't excuse the inconsistency...
>
>
I would ask the adminstration if it is uncivil to write things that could make animals feel put down, but I'm starting to enjoy the exchange. Of course, animals can't read, but somebody might read your post to their dog or cat.How do we know they don't know any better? Other species have reasonably well developed behavioral cultures.
What I'm implying is that presumption of our own supieriority as moral agents is just that, an assumption. Our cultures of morality finds evolutionary roots in other species, which in turn seem to have codes of behavior.
Maybe if we are moral agents, though, and animals aren't, under your system of cosmology, it's okay to eat them.
Posted by alexandra_k on May 21, 2005, at 22:03:15
In reply to Re: Just for the record..., posted by so on May 20, 2005, at 21:27:03
> I would ask the adminstration if it is uncivil to write things that could make animals feel put down, but I'm starting to enjoy the exchange. Of course, animals can't read, but somebody might read your post to their dog or cat.
Thats ok. It isn't just that they can't read,
animals don't understand abstract concepts either.
> How do we know they don't know any better? Other species have reasonably well developed behavioral cultures.Sure.
You can find examples of altruistic behaviour in animals. If you look for similarities you can see lots of similarities in the behaviour of humans and animals. But there are also importaint differences too. I was thinking more along the lines of 'lets look at differences'.
> What I'm implying is that presumption of our own supieriority as moral agents is just that, an assumption. Our cultures of morality finds evolutionary roots in other species, which in turn seem to have codes of behavior.Whoa. 'Superiority' as moral agents??? I don't see it as a matter of 'superiority'. What moral agency buys you more often than not is a sense of duty and obligation. Ones actions can be evaluated positively and negatively. Because animals are unable to think about different options (they just act) they aren't able to weigh pros and cons to make moral decisions. They lack an understanding of moral concepts.
There do seem to be rudimentary forms of moral behaviour in animals. But there are also important differences. Most people grant that you have a moral obligation to keep a promise (though it is also true that in some cases one is better to break a promice in some cases because there are greater moral duties).
But animals can't even MAKE promises. So it is silly to say that they are obliged to keep promises when they can't even make them to start with.
> Maybe if we are moral agents, though, and animals aren't, under your system of cosmology, it's okay to eat them.Nope. If something is a moral agent then that means that we can evaluate their actions with respect to whether they *should* or *should not* have done that. Whether what they did was morally required, or morally unacceptable etc etc. That is the notion of moral agency.
What you seem to be thinking of now is 'who are the members of a moral community'? Where the moral community consists in the things whose interests / welfare is worthy of moral consideration. Basically, a moral agent needs to consider the interests of the moral community before deciding what they *should* do.
Moral agents are worthy of moral consideration.
Most people say animals are worthy of moral consideration.
Some people say the environment (eco-system) is worthy of moral consideration.Descartes, for example did not think that animals were part of the moral community. He didn't think that they felt pain. Sure they recoiled from it but he thought that that was because they were wired up to do that. He didn't think they felt pain. Because they didn't actually feel pain he thought it was morally acceptable to kick a dog or a cat. It wasn't harming it so there wasn't a problem.
But. If something is sentient (the subject of experience) then it is part of the moral community. Animals do have an interest in surviving and reproducing and avoiding pain etc. While they themselves aren't moral agents moral agents do have a duty to take their suffering into account when the moral agent decides what the moral agent is to do.
So.
Equal interests deserve to be taken into account equally.I would say that the animal has a greater interest in remaining alive than we have in 'having fun' (shooting them). Therefore - we shouldn't do it. When we had to eat them to stay alive it did come down to a 'them or us' situation. There both creatures have comperable interests. But now the situation is different.
People argue about whether we have a moral obligation to the environment or whether we only have a moral obligation to it in the sense that it will come back to bite our future generations on the *ss if we don't look after it. The environment isn't typically thought of as sentient, so it is unclear whether sentience is required in order for something to be worthy of moral consideration.
Some people think there is an intrinsic value in nature.
Other people think the value of nature is only because we should value our future generations, so it only has instrumental value ie value to us because we need it.
Posted by so on May 22, 2005, at 0:24:48
In reply to Re: Just for the record... » so, posted by alexandra_k on May 21, 2005, at 22:03:15
Alexandra, I think we are so far apart on appreciating the continuum of motivation that binds humans and animals, it's probably not worth me trying to explain their sentience and the slavery to desires we share with them. Sure humans are as different from other animals as we are similar. But there are as many if not more differences between a bug and a bear than there are between a human and a bear.
I hope you recognize that not all people, especially outside of Western and Christian cultures, are all that impressed with the idea that humans are moral agents. I'm not. I don't consider moral agency relevant to my behavior in the least. I don't believe in right or wrong outside a context of goals and the right or wrong way to get there. And I certainly don't believe we can *sses others by what they should or should not have done. All we have to go on is what we wanted them to do. I believe morals are cultural constructs, and I vote.I'm not alone, and I'm certainly not to be condemned along with millions of fellow animists for holding forth for the similarities we share with the rest of the animal kingdom. I don't think I have a moral obligation to the environment. I don't think we need to preserve it because it is instrumental. I just want to keep it more than I want a Rolls Royce, so that's where I try to invest my effort -- much the same way a stallion tries to maintain his harem of mares or a pack of wolves jealously defend their territory.
Fortunately for the animistic cultures of the world who would otherwise be afforded no more credibility in modern society than animials, each of the notions you represent that separate us from animals -- that they can't hold abstract thoughts, that they can't make and keep promises, that they are not sentient, that they don't have duties or obligations, that they don't have mental capacity to contemplate alternatives, that they are not members of their own ethical communities, has been challenged in scientific literature by people who methodically study animals. I'm probably not going to debate these findings here, because they are too precious to me to represent without doing the kind of research and editing that costs more than I care to invest here.
For sure, there are other ways of looking at things, and most people in industrialized societies hold fast to notions of human moral agency and humans as some pinnacle of evolution. Some of us see it differently, we have for a long time and we will continue see it that way for a long time, and we will be valuable contributors to society all the while.
Heck, I might even hook up a quadrapalegic son of an old farmer with a computer where he can hunt in a private game preserve over the Internet. He's eaten packaged meat so long, I want him to have the opportunity to appreciate the reality of his relationship with an animal, albeit as removed and artificial as is our dialogue here. I hope this isn't a forum where my choice is considered so reprehensible to people who don't share my values that I am fair game.
Posted by alexandra_k on May 22, 2005, at 3:01:23
In reply to Re: Just for the record..., posted by so on May 22, 2005, at 0:24:48
Just for the record...
I never said that animals weren't sentient.
That was Descartes.
It is a silly view.But at least Descartes was consistent...
That was my thought there. Descartes thought it was okay to kill them because they didn't have interests, and thus we didn't have to take their interests into account.Whereas...
If you say that animals are sentient
That they have goals
They have things they want to do
They have an interest in staying alive
The more you see that they have goals JUST LIKE US
The more it seems a little strange
That you can believe
That it is perfectly fine
Perfectly acceptable
To completely override their interests - their great interest in survival
In favour of the comparatively trivial interest that human beings have in having 'a little fun'.Do you understand my point?????
The notion is that we should treat people as ends in themselves. People have goals and plans and it is thought to be wrong to manipulate or make people do just what we want them to do with no consideration for them having autonomy and being allowed to persue goals that are different from ours.
People are ends in themselves (they have their own goals).
They are not merely means to our ends (to be manipulated for our own goals).But if animals are sentient...
If animals have their own goals...Then how is it that we can override their interest in survival to treat them as a mere means to our goal of having a little fun?
I do not understand.
Posted by gromit on May 23, 2005, at 4:09:44
In reply to Re: Just for the record..., posted by so on May 22, 2005, at 0:24:48
Even in my med induced stupor I just can't let this one go, even if it wasn't addressed to me.
> Alexandra, I think we are so far apart on appreciating the continuum of motivation that binds humans and animals, it's probably not worth me trying to explain their sentience and the slavery to desires we share with them. Sure humans are as different from other animals as we are similar. But there are as many if not more differences between a bug and a bear than there are between a human and a bear.
First off, I find this incredibly condecending. It's not worth your time explaining, ie, you won't ever agree with me, you must be too dumb to understand.
> I hope you recognize that not all people, especially outside of Western and Christian cultures, are all that impressed with the idea that humans are moral agents. I'm not. I don't consider moral agency relevant to my behavior in the least. I don't believe in right or wrong outside a context of goals and the right or wrong way to get there. And I certainly don't believe we can *sses others by what they should or should not have done. All we have to go on is what we wanted them to do. I believe morals are cultural constructs, and I vote.So how else would you judge them then? To a nazi Hitler was a great leader with vision and the cajones to make things happen. Feel free to invoke Godwin's Law.
> I'm not alone, and I'm certainly not to be condemned along with millions of fellow animists for holding forth for the similarities we share with the rest of the animal kingdom. I don't think I have a moral obligation to the environment. I don't think we need to preserve it because it is instrumental. I just want to keep it more than I want a Rolls Royce, so that's where I try to invest my effort -- much the same way a stallion tries to maintain his harem of mares or a pack of wolves jealously defend their territory.I have a child, I believe it is absolutely my moral responsibily to do what I can to make this a livable planet for him and his kids. I also see animals as co-citizens but with no real control over what happens to them, don't we have some responsibility to them?
> Fortunately for the animistic cultures of the world who would otherwise be afforded no more credibility in modern society than animials, each of the notions you represent that separate us from animals -- that they can't hold abstract thoughts, that they can't make and keep promises, that they are not sentient, that they don't have duties or obligations, that they don't have mental capacity to contemplate alternatives, that they are not members of their own ethical communities, has been challenged in scientific literature by people who methodically study animals. I'm probably not going to debate these findings here, because they are too precious to me to represent without doing the kind of research and editing that costs more than I care to invest here.
I had a dog that was smarter than at least 10% of the people I encounter on the freeway every day. I again find your tone condescending.
> Heck, I might even hook up a quadrapalegic son of an old farmer with a computer where he can hunt in a private game preserve over the Internet. He's eaten packaged meat so long, I want him to have the opportunity to appreciate the reality of his relationship with an animal, albeit as removed and artificial as is our dialogue here. I hope this isn't a forum where my choice is considered so reprehensible to people who don't share my values that I am fair game.
This is a public forum, whatever you say here is fair game.
I'll take it further, I don't think consider moral agency relevant to my behaviour in the least after all. Why not a website where we can remotely poke the quadrapalegic with hot sharp objects? Or maybe an auction where the highest bidder gets to eat him? Hell maybe he'd like to remotely hunt you, he's ok with it so where is the problem? (I hope you have a long and happy life)
Some things are just wrong.
I'm too left brained to understand philisophy, contemplating the meaning of triangles and such. If you choose to respond please use small words.
Rick
Posted by AuntieMel on May 23, 2005, at 14:29:20
In reply to Re: Did a Texan do anything to you?, posted by so on May 18, 2005, at 16:31:03
And I don't claim him:
"President Bush was born on July 6, 1946, in New Haven, Connecticut"
Posted by so on May 23, 2005, at 17:04:37
In reply to Re: He's not a texan, posted by AuntieMel on May 23, 2005, at 14:29:20
> And I don't claim him:
>
> "President Bush was born on July 6, 1946, in New Haven, Connecticut"Would you then suggest naturalized citizens are not Americans?
Texans elected him governor. That's about as much endorsement of residency as a person can get. In the United States, residency and national citizenship are the sole factors that determine who is a qualified participant in official processes of state jurisdictions.
Posted by so on May 23, 2005, at 17:06:18
In reply to Re: Just for the record..., posted by gromit on May 23, 2005, at 4:09:44
gromit wrote:
>
> ... you must be too dumb to understand.
>
Posted by gromit on May 23, 2005, at 21:28:07
In reply to I heard that... » gromit, posted by so on May 23, 2005, at 17:06:18
Posted by Camille Dumont on May 25, 2005, at 0:45:34
In reply to Internet Hunting, posted by alexandra_k on May 15, 2005, at 17:31:15
Personally I am against hunting as a "sport" or "hobby" but not because of philosophical (thou shall not kill type of stuff) reasons but basic animal welfare. If the methods eventually change, my optinion on hunt might as well.
I do understand and accept that for some organisms to live, some must die. Its part of how nature works. And yes we are predators and yes we have the digestive systems of omnivores suggesting that we need some animal protein.
However, I also think that given the technology that we posess, hunting is needlessly cruel in its current form. I can understand that some people might get a trill out of tracking and capturing an animal and then eating it. Its all fine and dandy and they should be free to do so as long as they are not destroying an ecosystem in the process. Sustainability should be paramount.
However, what I will NEVER agree with is the method to kill the animal. Lets face it, most hunters cannot land a shot in the head most of the time. This means that the animal is not killed instantly and feels pain until the hunter can catch up to it and put it to death.
If hunters in south america can hunt using curare, why can we not hunt using tranq guns? Something that puts the animal to sleep so it only feels the sting of a needle instead of a piece of super hot metal ripping through their flesh, bones and organs. There are, I am quite sure, sedating agents that can put the animal to sleep quickly so it can then humanely put to death and which are not dangerous to humans if they eat the carcass afterwards ... it works in South America with very primitive compounds ... so why not here?
Due to a weird medical error, I have had to endure having my flesh cut open and sewed shut without any anasthetic. Now this was a tiny scalpel ... not metal sharpnels propelled at high speed. And it still hurt like heck ... it only lasted a minute and it felt like hours. I would never wish that upon any living being that has the capacity to feel pain.
We have the technology, so why do we have to hunt using standard guns. If you want to hunt an animal and then eat its meat and use its body to make something, given environmental considrations, if you're not endangering the specie, go ahead ... but think of the welfare of the animal that gets killed.
I find it rather hypocritical when people would never dream of using a gun when it comes to euthanizing their dog or cat and yet do that exact thing to wild animals. They are just as capable of feeling pain. If your pet cat or dog deserves a painless death via a sedative, why not the bear or deer that gives up its life so that you may eat and entertain yourself?
If you had to choose the method of your death which one would you choose : a shot that puts you to sleep or a random gunshot somewhere in the chest and then, a few minutes later, a shot in the head?
I have pet rats and I often end up having to put them to sleep when they cannot wait for the vet to open when its them and I would never even begin to entertain the thought of using a method which I would not deem acceptable for a human being.
Think of what you would want, then have the decency of giving that same humane end to those creatures that you kill.
Posted by broken on May 25, 2005, at 12:26:10
In reply to Re: The difference between eating meat and rape » so, posted by alexandra_k on May 20, 2005, at 5:53:50
Wow...
I dont know really how to respond to his conversation, except to say, in my opinion, it certainly goes far and beyond the civillity guidelines.
I am a hunter.. So was my father, and his, and I am sure that it continues to go back through every generation. It's definitely going forward, as I take my son with me to hunt.
I enjoy it. I hunt deer, I hunt rabbit, occassionally dove. I am not trying to defend myself, because it is not necessary. It is legal, and in my opinion it is a good thing for reasons I wont bother explaining. I will offer this, not a single kill that I have made, EVER, has been tossed aside. All of the kills have been placed on my dinner table, and will continue to be.This quote from Alex is one that I question..
> I guess part of this question depends on how you defind "nature."
> I believe that it *is* natural for humans to eat meat, and this is proven to me by the structure of our teeth.That looks a lot similar to this:
I believe that is is natural for males to use physical force to control (rape) females as this is proven to me by the fact that males (tend to be) bigger than females.So.. and forgive me if I am misunderstanding, but there is a comparison between hunting and rape?
I think the discussion was a valid and interesting one starting out. I am against the "internet hunting" thing myself. To me, there are too many variables involved that could cause problems. But I think it degenerated after that.
I respect the views that people have either pro or against hunting. I respect the different views on the morallity of the subject. I have mine, and I dont try to force them on others, and expect the same in return. Who defines what is morally acceptable, or unacceptable, is a debate for another board.
One final word.. I am born and raised in the southern part of the United States, our geographic location is one of the defining parts of our "morals". Those morals do not find rape acceptable.
Posted by so on May 25, 2005, at 12:28:57
In reply to Re: Internet Hunting ... I just have to jump in, posted by Camille Dumont on May 25, 2005, at 0:45:34
> Think of what you would want, then have the decency of giving that same humane end to those creatures that you kill.
I want to die with my boots on. I don't know of any animals -- other than humans --- that want to wear my shoes.
The rules on this board just confound me. A person is chastend by admin for calling it monsterous to recruit suicide bombers but people can go on at length about my alleged lack of decency for the manner in which I euthenize my pet and gather my food.
When, I wonder, did hunting become indecent? In 1800? Mabye 1776? How about 1500? Perhaps in the "year of our lord" aka "O" or maybe 33 a.d.?
Oddly, firearms became more efficient more recently -- with the invention of smokeless powder, cartridged projectiles and rifled barrel that let hunters deliver more punch more accurately.
Though many people classify their hunting activities as sport, others don't. Some adamently classify it as food gathering, especially in international treaties (regarding hunting of whales and seals by natives), and in other protected hunting practices by aboriginal nations. Is hunting food a privilage reserved as humane only for certain races?
For sake a clarity, head shots are rare and are not the recommended target -- for large game, vital organ shots are the standard. With small game, shotguns land scattershot anywhere in the body. With fish, they as often suffocate for lack of waterflow through the gills. And death for a fish at the hands of an angler is no different than the death they suffer flopping in the hold of a commercial fishing vessel. Unless you refuse to eat fish sticks, you paid someone to kill a fish like that when you buy a fresh salmon steak at the store.
Death by puncture wound to the head in the killing stall of a slaughter house isn't much different, albeit a bit quicker. But then, once wounded, would you rather die sooner or later? How about Terry Schiavo -- people said she should be kept alive no matter how badly injured was her brain. So letting a wounded animial have a few more hours to run in the woods, fueled by adrenaline and endorphines, well that's just more chance to live.
And yes, I've euthanized a pet by gunshot. My very humane neighbors asked that I do so. The death that pet suffered was far more humane than the deaths that neighbor caused or witnessed in the employ of the United States military. His stories made abu graib sound like a frat party by comparison.
How was that pet's death, in a natural setting, flopping for a few seconds after a gunshot to the head after being petted by her favorite human, any less humane than a painful prick to the paw while being held down by strangers on a cold steel table, after a few minutes or hours in a cage in a room full of other frightened animals?
I could go further to explore the ethics of one person or group imposing their values on another, but in the context of this thread, I am more interested in the manner in which values are described, and how that does or does not fulfil the requirements of this site that people not insult others who might not agree with them.
Posted by so on May 25, 2005, at 12:45:34
In reply to Re: The difference between eating meat and rape, posted by broken on May 25, 2005, at 12:26:10
> Wow...
> I dont know really how to respond to his conversation, except to say, in my opinion, it certainly goes far and beyond the civillity guidelines.
hmm .. interesting observation. Tell me more about your opinion if you would like.
> I respect the views that people have either pro or against hunting. I respect the different views on the morallity of the subject. I have mine, and I dont try to force them on others, and expect the same in return.
Yeh, me to. I might even advance the other side of this debate if I noticed it were being presented here as a farce instead of as an interesting human perspective.
> One final word.. I am born and raised in the southern part of the United States, our geographic location is one of the defining parts of our "morals". Those morals do not find rape acceptable.Broken --- I remember the night they drove old Dixie down. What happened between Atlanta and the Gulf coast was not acceptable by many peoples' standards, and might have wounded your family and mine for decades to follow.
>Who defines what is morally acceptable, or unacceptable, is a debate for another board.
I would be inclined to say in as much as those morals become the basis for law, they fit the definition of this board. I would refer back to your certainty about the proximity of the manner of discussion in relation to the guidelines as a more potentially productive subject about which to investigate inconsistency.
> I think the discussion was a valid and interesting one starting out.
I noticed it turning --- uh, north --- even at the outset, with the statement "what a farce". Perhaps I am still a bit sensitive for my earlier adminonishment at this board for disclosing what I perceive as farsical human activities.
>
> So.. and forgive me if I am misunderstanding, but there is a comparison between hunting and rape?
>The explanation offered in this thread for why the comparison is okay under the present rules was that the actual activities or motives weren't compared, but instead the structure of the logic. Apparently one needs more logical discernment than I have developed to appreciate fine nuance in what is tolerable at this site.
Posted by broken on May 25, 2005, at 15:17:32
In reply to Re: The difference between eating meat and rape » so, posted by alexandra_k on May 19, 2005, at 3:26:41
> > It made it morally acceptable to those people in that time and place.
>
> Ah... Moral relativism...
>
> >Or are you suggesting your morals now dictate what is morally acceptable now and always for everybody?
>
> Not *my morals*... But I believe there are universal ethical truths that hold for all times places cultures etc...
>
> One example might be:
>
> Torturing a baby for fun is morally wrong.
>
> > There might be a time when pouring sulfur dioxide into the air is considered immoral, but today few so consider it. Some people today consider dancing immoral, but others don't.
>
> Just because people may think morals are relative that doesn't mean morals are relative.And just because people believe that there is some universal ethical truths that hold for all times places cultures etc. Doesn't make it so either.
Ofcourse you are entitled to those beliefs, as I am entitled to mine. But your beliefs do not equal fact. They are what they are... Your beliefs. Mine are different, but they aren't fact either.
>
> If whatever a culture says goes...
>
> Then the holocaust is only wrong from our perspective now.
>
> If Hitler had won the war then I guess it would still be morally acceptable.
>
> Likewise the notion that black people aren't moral persons (they are no more than animals) and thus we don't really need to take their interests into account.
>
> Likewise the notion that animals (aside from our particular beloved pets) don't require to have their interest in remaining alive taken seriously when it comes to the 'fun' of us killing them.
>
> Do you really want to accept that conclusion???The only conclusion that I want to accept is that I am as entitled to my beliefs as you are. I believe that these comparisons are extreme to the nth degree. I believe that anyone that hunts would feel put down on accused by your comparisons. I believe the guidelines to civillity on this website have been put in place to keep such things from happening, and are being ignored throughout this entire thread.
But those are only my beliefs, and that doesn't make them fact.
> My specific point about rape was just supposed to illustrate that just because people do do something or just because a culture does think that something is morally ok that doesn't make it morally ok in the greater scheme of things.
>
>That might have been your intention, but again, as someone that hunts legally, abides by the laws of my nation, which (right or wrong) loosely define morals in place here, it appeared you were comparing hunting to rape.
Chris
Posted by Camille Dumont on May 26, 2005, at 0:12:01
In reply to Re: Internet Hunting ... I just have to jump in, posted by so on May 25, 2005, at 12:28:57
> > Think of what you would want, then have the decency of giving that same humane end to those creatures that you kill.
>
> I want to die with my boots on. I don't know of any animals -- other than humans --- that want to wear my shoes.
>
> The rules on this board just confound me. A person is chastend by admin for calling it monsterous to recruit suicide bombers but people can go on at length about my alleged lack of decency for the manner in which I euthenize my pet and gather my food.
>Hello? Where in my post did I make assuptions on your dealing with your pets. I don't even know if you have any pets. I was speaking my point of view on the issue of huting in general ... if you feel attacked, there is little I can do. I posted my opinion but you control your reaction to it.
> When, I wonder, did hunting become indecent? In 1800? Mabye 1776? How about 1500? Perhaps in the "year of our lord" aka "O" or maybe 33 a.d.?
>
Why inflict pain when we can achieve the same end without it? That is basically what I'm asking.> Oddly, firearms became more efficient more recently -- with the invention of smokeless powder, cartridged projectiles and rifled barrel that let hunters deliver more punch more accurately.
>
> Though many people classify their hunting activities as sport, others don't. Some adamently classify it as food gathering, especially in international treaties (regarding hunting of whales and seals by natives), and in other protected hunting practices by aboriginal nations. Is hunting food a privilage reserved as humane only for certain races?
>
I'm not against hunting in general if something is made of the animal that is killed. Killing for the sake of killing a living being is just pointless. I'm against the infliction of needless pain.Actually I am Aboriginal ... and it bother me that people go on and on about the "traditional" hunting. Its an abused notion. Want to hunt the "traditional" way? Ok, take a spear of knife and go find yourself a moose or whatever. My money is on the moose.
Personally, I feel no need or desire to "go back to the way things were". Why would I want to? Go back to not having heat, electricity, dying because of a simple infection and so on ... no thank you.
> For sake a clarity, head shots are rare and are not the recommended target -- for large game, vital organ shots are the standard. With small game, shotguns land scattershot anywhere in the body. With fish, they as often suffocate for lack of waterflow through the gills. And death for a fish at the hands of an angler is no different than the death they suffer flopping in the hold of a commercial fishing vessel. Unless you refuse to eat fish sticks, you paid someone to kill a fish like that when you buy a fresh salmon steak at the store.
Just because huting is "not worse" than commercial fishing is not a justification ... its a lame excuse. Mediocrity makes for a poor benchmark.
>
> Death by puncture wound to the head in the killing stall of a slaughter house isn't much different, albeit a bit quicker.Again, slaughterhouse practices and the meat industry in general do not employ methods that I find good or commendable.
>But then, once wounded, would you rather die sooner or later?
I would rather not feel the wound at all. That is what I would want.
>How about Terry Schiavo -- people said she should be kept alive no matter how badly injured was her brain. So letting a wounded animial have a few more hours to run in the woods, fueled by adrenaline and endorphines, well that's just more chance to live.
>
In my opinion, Terry Schiavo was not given a decent death. Granted her brain was dead so she didn't feel a thing ... but it was still hypocritical. They wanted her to die yet did not act accordingly ... they used a detour. A shot of morphine would have been sufficient. She would have left in minutes. If the goal is death (as it was with Terry or an animal that you hunt) just don't make the being who is to die suffer if you can avoid it. Her death was made a spectacle of ... which I found very sad.> And yes, I've euthanized a pet by gunshot. My very humane neighbors asked that I do so. The death that pet suffered was far more humane than the deaths that neighbor caused or witnessed in the employ of the United States military. His stories made abu graib sound like a frat party by comparison.
Humans can be cruel I'm not denying that. Over the centuries we have manage to come up with very sick and twisted ways to destroy each other.
If the gunshot is in the head and is a clean shot then death is instantaneous and this is humane. To me a humane death is a death by whatever form in which the victim does not feel pain (a head shot would accomplish that) or a very minimal amount of pain (like a sub-cu shot) and which leads to a quick death and can be carried out with a very high degree of reliability. In my opinion, its in the departments of speed and reliability that gunshot in the context of hunting fall short of the mark.
>
> How was that pet's death, in a natural setting, flopping for a few seconds after a gunshot to the head after being petted by her favorite human, any less humane than a painful prick to the paw while being held down by strangers on a cold steel table, after a few minutes or hours in a cage in a room full of other frightened animals?Again, a gunshot to the head can be humane. What I meant to say (again, my post was a general one and not directed at you per say) that for a great majority of pet owners, they take their pets to be pts at the vet so that it can die quickly and without suffering yet those same people are ready to run after a wild animal and wound it and potentially make it suffer for quite a long period. As if the suffering of a pet is more important that that of a wild animal.
As a matter of fact I find it even more ironic that we let terminally ill patients linger for months enduring horrible pain when they have no hope of recovery and do not want to keep on living. Our pets get a painless euthanasia but our relatives can't. How messed up is that? To me every human being (not under delusions or whatever) should be free to choose when and how they die and even benefit from medical assitance to do so painlessly
>
> I could go further to explore the ethics of one person or group imposing their values on another, but in the context of this thread, I am more interested in the manner in which values are described, and how that does or does not fulfil the requirements of this site that people not insult others who might not agree with them.
>
Posted by so on May 26, 2005, at 1:42:24
In reply to Re: Internet Hunting ... I just have to jump in, posted by Camille Dumont on May 26, 2005, at 0:12:01
> I posted my opinion but you control your reaction to it.
I read the plain language of your post. I am a reasonably experienced and articulate reader. Beyond responding to what was written, I have had no "reaction".
> Hello? Where in my post did I make assuptions on your dealing with your pets.
> > > "Think of what ***you*** would want, then ***have the decency*** of giving that same humane end to those creatures that you kill."
Can you understand how a person would read that to mean if they do not euthenize their pet in some manner in which they would want to die, they are lacking in decency? If it doesn't mean that, can you explain why are you equating that with having decency?
> Again, slaughterhouse practices and the meat industry in general do not employ methods that I find good or commendable.Hmmm. I don't understand that am allowed to say here what I find good or commendable for other people to do.
> Her death was made a spectacle of ... which I found very sad.I don't understand that I am allowed to say who might make a spectacle of anything. A news produceer might feel it their duty to provide the public information about controversial issues, and families might feel it their obligation to teneciously represent thier perception of a family members interests in court and in public venues.
> Over the centuries we have manage to come up with very sick and twisted ways to destroy each other.hmmm. I don't understand that I am allowed to say what is sick and twisted for other people to do. My lack of understanding of my permission to say such things is informed by the thread below this, where were asked not to call people monterous for recruiting suicide bombers.
>
> ... for a great majority of pet owners, they take their pets to be pts at the vet so that it can die quickly and without suffering yet those same people are ready to run after a wild animal and wound it and potentially make it suffer for quite a long period.I have not seen evidence that the great majority of pet owners in the united states or anywhere else A. take their pets to the vet to die or B. also run after animals wounded during a hunt.
> How messed up is that?I do not understand that I am allowed to say here how messed up I think other people's choices might be.
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Politics | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.