![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 3 to 27 of 28. Go back in thread:
Posted by gromit on March 3, 2005, at 16:34:15
In reply to Re: U.S. Does not follow the rules of NAFTA » rayww, posted by AuntieMel on March 3, 2005, at 9:01:54
> As for the oil and gas? It sounds like a good idea to me. Anything that stimulates exploration in this country helps line my pockets. {snicker}
I was really surprised to hear you say this, even if you were only half serious.
In your opinion are there any limits as to where we should extract oil?
Although you might take a financial hit down the road, do you believe the government should exponentially increase funding for alternative ways of producing energy NOW?
Do you find government ties to Halliburton and other huge corporations disturbing?
I'm sorry if this post makes you feel accused, I have nothing but respect for you. I just believe if we were as concerned with finding clean sources of energy as we are about maintaining the status quo we might be at a point now where we wouldn't be as dependant on foreign oil.
Rick
Posted by AuntieMel on March 4, 2005, at 14:54:33
In reply to Re: U.S. Does not follow the rules of NAFTA, posted by gromit on March 3, 2005, at 16:34:15
Well, my family does make it's living from the oil biz. I'm in software, so I'm sure I could find employment somewhere else, but I love geophysica and would die a slow death in databases. I'm not too worried about my own bank account actually. I'm fifty and don't expect to work much longer.
And for less selfish reasons I'd love to see the domestic industry turn around. I keep saying it, but nobody seems to grasp that the industry has lost hundreds of thousands of jobs in this country since the early eighties. And what is left of the work force is aging. Average age is around fifty last I heard. Schools aren't putting out replacements because the students think the market is too volitile.
As to limits of where to extract, the driving force seems to be 'not where I can see it.' Offshre Cal and Fla are out because it won't look pretty.
Kind of 'we'll have our cake and Texas can eat it.'
And if you pay attention you'll see that most of the natural disasters coming from spills are frin tankers - a result of shipping it in.
But - back to limits for exploration. I'm not fond of the idea of more exploring in Alaska, though I'd need more details to be completely against it. The new technology is so amazing - you can set up the drilling rig a very long way from where you are actually exploring - there are now steerable bits. So if one place is environmentally sensitive there could be a spot a half mile away that isn't as big an issue.
So - my bank account asside - I think there are serious reasons to try to rely less on foriegn resources. So I would do:
Convert many electric plants to natural gas. It burns much cleaner than oil and is largely domestic.
Convert any remaining fuel oil systems to gas. If it takes government subsidies or tax breaks so be it. We would all breathe easier.
Meanwhile beef up the domestic exploration because - right now - it's the only game in town. Depending too much on foriegn sources increases our vulnerability.
And while we're making ourselves more self sustaining this way (taking care of the present), we should look at alternative forms of energy in order to take care of the future.
After the Arab Oil Embargo (1970s) we *were* determined to do more domestic exploration *AND* there were tax writeoffs for anyone using solar, wind, or whatever. I think the Reagan "simplification" took that away, but I'm not sure.
Fact is people in this country think they are entitled to cheap energy.
You might also look at the declining dollar for a reason the price of oil is high. Oil is priced worldwide in dollars, so a high - to us - cost is really not much change at all in other countries.
As to govt ties to Hal and others? I was very surprised when Cheney got that job there, but figured they wanted him to use his contacts in the state department to their advantage. Which is totally legal. I think everyone was surprised when he ended up on the ticket for VP.
But maybe you are talking about the contracts in Iraq that Hal got, with little or no bidding.
One thing to remember is that Hal is the parent company of Brown & Root (now combined with Kellogg to make KBR). B&R has done government work on a cost plus basis for years and years. My first memory of them was the construction work done in the early 70s in Vietnam [remember the tiger cages?] They are the only group I know of that can mobilize a large work force to go into warlike conditions. But - they've got lots of experience in this vein.
So - I wasn't at all surprised they got those contracts. On the oil side they are our competitors, but on that type contract they have little competition.
Posted by Mark H. on March 4, 2005, at 20:27:28
In reply to U.S. Does not follow the rules of NAFTA, posted by rayww on March 2, 2005, at 23:36:29
Here's what President Bush had to say about it:
"I believe that, as quickly as possible, young cows ought to be allowed to go across our border." —Ottawa, Nov. 30, 2004
Here they come now! Or not.
Appropos of nothing, here's what President Bush said recently about his plans to reform Social Security:
"Because the—all which is on the table begins to address the big cost drivers. For example, how benefits are calculated, for example, is on the table; whether or not benefits rise based upon wage increases or price increases. There's a series of parts of the formula that are being considered. And when you couple that, those different cost drivers, affecting those—changing those with personal accounts, the idea is to get what has been promised more likely to be—or closer delivered to what has been promised. Does that make any sense to you? It's kind of muddled. Look, there's a series of things that cause the—like, for example, benefits are calculated based upon the increase of wages, as opposed to the increase of prices. Some have suggested that we calculate—the benefits will rise based upon inflation, as opposed to wage increases. There is a reform that would help solve the red if that were put into effect. In other words, how fast benefits grow, how fast the promised benefits grow, if those—if that growth is affected, it will help on the red." —Tampa, Fla., Feb. 4, 2005
I think that quote pretty well speaks for itself.
Best wishes,
Mark H.
Posted by gromit on March 5, 2005, at 10:06:19
In reply to Re: U.S. Does not follow the rules of NAFTA, posted by AuntieMel on March 4, 2005, at 14:54:33
> Well, my family does make it's living from the oil biz. I'm in software, so I'm sure I could find employment somewhere else, but I love geophysica and would die a slow death in databases. I'm not too worried about my own bank account actually. I'm fifty and don't expect to work much longer.
Ahhh, death by brain numbing years spent optimizing meaningless SQL. I'm glad to hear you are comfortable and won't have to worry too much about money. Dealing with M.I. is bad enough without adding financial troubles. I'm speaking for myself since I don't know you, for all I know you are only here for the sparkling conversation ;^)
> And for less selfish reasons I'd love to see the domestic industry turn around. I keep saying it, but nobody seems to grasp that the industry has lost hundreds of thousands of jobs in this country since the early eighties. And what is left of the work force is aging. Average age is around fifty last I heard. Schools aren't putting out replacements because the students think the market is too volitile.
It's sad to see good people lose their jobs. Was this caused by cutting production or is it more automation in the process? Maybe a combination of the two? I think when it becomes more obvious that these are high paying jobs with a good future and a shortage of qualified replacements there will be more students pursuing them. Fossil fuels are a dead end though, it's just a matter of when.
> As to limits of where to extract, the driving force seems to be 'not where I can see it.' Offshre Cal and Fla are out because it won't look pretty.
Well here in CA and probably at least as much in Florida, we get a lot of revenue from tourists who come to relax and enjoy the warm weather and the beaches. I doubt they want to look out at the ocean sunset thru oil rigs, I know I don't. It's bad enough every time it rains we have to close the beaches because of raw sewage in the water.
> Kind of 'we'll have our cake and Texas can eat it.'
That's one way to look at it. Another is we give out of state companies rights to come and setup rigs offshore, there is no danger of polluting *their* coastline, they just rake in the profits.
> And if you pay attention you'll see that most of the natural disasters coming from spills are frin tankers - a result of shipping it in.
>
> But - back to limits for exploration. I'm not fond of the idea of more exploring in Alaska, though I'd need more details to be completely against it. The new technology is so amazing - you can set up the drilling rig a very long way from where you are actually exploring - there are now steerable bits. So if one place is environmentally sensitive there could be a spot a half mile away that isn't as big an issue.I know nothing about oil drilling, it sounds interesting, but we're talking about an absolutely huge area here. Half a mile may be enough when you're forced to avoid the nesting place of a pair of whatevers <Damm, I tried to come up with something funny but I got nothin>.
> So - my bank account asside - I think there are serious reasons to try to rely less on foriegn resources. So I would do:
>
> Convert many electric plants to natural gas. It burns much cleaner than oil and is largely domestic.
>
> Convert any remaining fuel oil systems to gas. If it takes government subsidies or tax breaks so be it. We would all breathe easier.
>
> Meanwhile beef up the domestic exploration because - right now - it's the only game in town. Depending too much on foriegn sources increases our vulnerability.
>
> And while we're making ourselves more self sustaining this way (taking care of the present), we should look at alternative forms of energy in order to take care of the future.It all sounds good but I don't see this administration providing funding for any of it. They don't even pretend to care about the environment anymore. Maybe in another 4 years.
> After the Arab Oil Embargo (1970s) we *were* determined to do more domestic exploration *AND* there were tax writeoffs for anyone using solar, wind, or whatever. I think the Reagan "simplification" took that away, but I'm not sure.
I remember alternating days but only from carpool ladies and watching the steam coming out of my dad's ears. You would think it would have sent us running full speed away from foreign oil. If you say Reagan basically killed it I'll take your word for it, it certainly fits the pattern. That last sentence, heh, there could be a lot of material but I won't go there. We need to start these programs again ASAP, the money spent now will payoff down the road.
> Fact is people in this country think they are entitled to cheap energy.
>
> You might also look at the declining dollar for a reason the price of oil is high. Oil is priced worldwide in dollars, so a high - to us - cost is really not much change at all in other countries.I have a really hard time believing in supply and demand when it comes to oil, as soon as the price drops production seems to follow, any shortage is artificial but that's just my impression. And the dollar is not *that* volatile to explain the prices I was paying last summer.
I think the reason people feel they are entitled is it's been that way for so long, and our economy is so dependant on cheap energy.
> As to govt ties to Hal and others? I was very surprised when Cheney got that job there, but figured they wanted him to use his contacts in the state department to their advantage. Which is totally legal. I think everyone was surprised when he ended up on the ticket for VP.IMO there is a difference between what is technically legal and what is right or wrong. When it comes to business otherwise good people seem to think anything goes, stab your friend in the back for a promotion, screw people living on fixed incomes, hey nothing personal it's just business.
> But maybe you are talking about the contracts in Iraq that Hal got, with little or no bidding.
That is what I meant but Microsoft comes to mind.
> One thing to remember is that Hal is the parent company of Brown & Root (now combined with Kellogg to make KBR). B&R has done government work on a cost plus basis for years and years. My first memory of them was the construction work done in the early 70s in Vietnam [remember the tiger cages?] They are the only group I know of that can mobilize a large work force to go into warlike conditions. But - they've got lots of experience in this vein.
I don't remember the tiger cages, but I've read a lot about that war and even retained some of it. I remember running around the house shouting "the war is over", I think my mom was surprised I even knew there was a war going on. Maybe Hal. really was the only company who could have done the job, it just all seems very suspicious. As much as I disagree with this administration I think they believe they are doing the right thing. IMO Cheney is all about the money, right or wrong doesn't even enter the equation. After the Supreme Court voted *along party lines* to impose Bush on us the little faith I had in our government is almost gone.
I enjoy talking with you, thank's for replying and enduring my scattered writing style.
Posted by AuntieMel on March 8, 2005, at 12:44:34
In reply to Re: U.S. Does not follow the rules of NAFTA (long) » AuntieMel, posted by gromit on March 5, 2005, at 10:06:19
> Ahhh, death by brain numbing years spent optimizing meaningless SQL. I'm glad to hear you are comfortable and won't have to worry too much about money. Dealing with M.I. is bad enough without adding financial troubles. I'm speaking for myself since I don't know you, for all I know you are only here for the sparkling conversation ;^)
Don't get me wrong. I'm not exactly rolling in cash.But in 1986 hubby and I both lost jobs, within two weeks of each other. A huge percentage of the rest of the town was in the same boat. No way we could sell the house for what was even owed as around 20-30% of the neighborhood was in forclosure and houses like ours were selling for 1/3 to 1/2 of what we owed.
However, due to his money management skills, we had no other debt and a little (precious little) in the bank. Luckily he got a consultant job paying a percentage of the jobs he worked on and I was able to go back to college full time.
And after a semester of college the place that had just dumped me hired me back contract at 50% more than I was making. Great part time job for a student.
Can you imagine if this was any other industry? The howling and whining there would be? Demand for government help and protections?
But, nah, the best we got was a 6 month extension on our miserly unemployment.
And, being the proud folk that we Texans are, we didn't really expect more. We slogged on, most leaving the industry completely, but all of us making it in one way or another.
Fourteen years later we sold the house for about what we paid for it, not counting the thousands in improvements.
And nobody in the biz that lived through that time has forgotten. We're like people who grew up in the depression. Save a lot, spend what you have to.
There was a bumper sticker around here for a long time. "Please God, give us one more boom. We promise not to screw it up this time"
> It's sad to see good people lose their jobs. Was this caused by cutting production or is it more automation in the process? Maybe a combination of the two? I think when it becomes more obvious that these are high paying jobs with a good future and a shortage of qualified replacements there will be more students pursuing them. Fossil fuels are a dead end though, it's just a matter of when.
Did you get the magnitude when I said hundreds of thousands??? I heard a number around a half million US jobs - or Texas jobs, I don't remember.
Oil gets in your blood. Kids see parents enthused about the industry and want to follow the same path. That doesn't happen anymore. Parents tell the kids to do anything BUT the oil biz.
Because there is no stability in it. None. Nada. Zip. Part of my decline into MI was that between 2001 and 2003 my department had layoff after layoff. I tried highlighting them on the phone list by layoff date, but I couldn't find enough colors. 40% of the people I worked with are no longer here. Good people, too, not slackards. The UK office had the same thing. My best friend was 'made redundant.'
The business is cyclical and people understand that. But the wild swings affect what's left of us us a whole lot more than they do you.
No parent wants to see his kids go through a frightening time like that, or even be tied to a region. And for sure no parent wants to support the kids when they are out of work.
The universities can't put them out easily anymore. Not enough students sign up for so many years = no professors left.
>
> Well here in CA and probably at least as much in Florida, we get a lot of revenue from tourists who come to relax and enjoy the warm weather and the beaches. I doubt they want to look out at the ocean sunset thru oil rigs, I know I don't. It's bad enough every time it rains we have to close the beaches because of raw sewage in the water.
>I don't remember us ever having to close a beach.
> > Kind of 'we'll have our cake and Texas can eat it.'
>
> That's one way to look at it. Another is we give out of state companies rights to come and setup rigs offshore, there is no danger of polluting *their* coastline, they just rake in the profits.
>You are assuming that the rigs would polute the shoreline. I haven't heard of any of that here.
And for out of state companies - what about Unocal and Chevron? Well, at least before Chevron was swallowed up by Exxon.
I can guaran-dang-tee you that if things were opened up on other coasts they wouldn't quit looking here.
And I can also tell you that one of the reasons we have very low taxes because the state gets royalties off every barrel pumped. You haven't heard of a tax revolt here yet, right? I haven't heard that this state wants to privatize their retirements (ala social security) because the market went bad and they're underfunded.
> It all sounds good but I don't see this administration providing funding for any of it. They don't even pretend to care about the environment anymore. Maybe in another 4 years.
>Nor did the last one, nor did the one before that. This country doesn't have a decent energy policy and never has.
The good (ex) governor of Texas - Ann Richards - proposed that if the country put a floor on the price of oil - say 20 to 25 USD there would be a lot more domestic exploration and we wouldn't be at the mercy of other countries.
But that was in the eighties when everyone was celebrating cheap gas and not looking to the future.
So what happened? Wells that could make a profit at 20 were cemented in, and exploration is limited to wells that can be profitable at 10 to 15.
>
> We need to start these programs again ASAP, the money spent now will payoff down the road.
>Yes we do, but it would be way down the road. If something had been done 15 years ago there would be plenty of domestic fuel and it wouldn't be such a hurry now, either.
>
> I have a really hard time believing in supply and demand when it comes to oil, as soon as the price drops production seems to follow, any shortage is artificial but that's just my impression. And the dollar is not *that* volatile to explain the prices I was paying last summer.
>Well, a lot of things explain the prices you paid last summer.
One of which is the 'special' formula Cal demands in the summer. It's not a matter of just turning a knob, refineries have to be reworked to make special formulas.
And Cal isn't real consistent either, which doesn't help. One time your state will demand a certain ingredient and then they'll decide that ingredient is carcinogenic and demand it taken out.
Remember that when you see 'price of oil' in the news they aren't talking about what people actually pay. The price in the news is oil *futures* much like the old pork bellies. Most oil is actually sold by long term contracts.
Natural gas is too, and if Cal hadn't insisted on buying it on the spot market they wouldn't have been vulnerable to the Enrons of the world.
Spot market looked good when the price was low. But - the business is cyclical and the price won't stay low.
But back to the price and supply/demand. If there are more people driving out there after 911 and if more of those people drive SUVs then there is a much, much larger demand for that specially formulated summer gasoline.
Just out of curiosity - are station owners in CAL required to post on the pump how much of a gallon is state/federal tax? If so, I'm curious how much it is.
Reason - I was out there visiting when Iraq invaded Kuwait. The price of gas went up about 10 cents. Front page of the LA Times had an article with a huge headline, moaning about how oil companies play on fears and jack up prices even though flow hasn't been interupted.
Last paragraph on the inside page {like anyone gets that far, right?} it said something like 'of course 5 cents if from the tax increase that just took effect.'
> IMO there is a difference between what is technically legal and what is right or wrong. When it comes to business otherwise good people seem to think anything goes, stab your friend in the back for a promotion, screw people living on fixed incomes, hey nothing personal it's just business.
And from our perspective there is a difference between laying off steel workers and laying off oilfield workers. But, hey, it's not personal.
>
> I enjoy talking with you, thank's for replying and enduring my scattered writing style.
>And thank you - if you got this far..
Posted by gromit on March 10, 2005, at 4:12:30
In reply to Re: more on the oil biz (also long) » gromit, posted by AuntieMel on March 8, 2005, at 12:44:34
Wow you have been thru a lot, I guess I didn't realize how unstable the industry is.
It's not only pollution that is a problem, the rigs themselves are an eyesore. People come here to enjoy the scenery as much as anything else. They try to disguise some of them as little islands with palm trees and stuff. Who knows if there would ever be a spill, that doesn't mean it won't happen though. We could have gobs of oil floating around with the poop I guess.
I don't know how it is in other states but it seems like every other vehicle here is an SUV, the bigger the better. We spend billions on public transportation that is underused because it is expensive and as much as people complain about traffic on the 405 they don't seem to be willing to give up their cars. Yes we have to change the gas in the summer but it seems every year there are several refineries already offline when the switch occurs. Eventually it becomes hard to believe it isn't intentional.
Stations here are required to display something about taxes but I tend to not pay any attention a lot of the time. Next time I fill up I'll check it out if I remember.
The 80's and cheap gas. IMO Politicians, especially those from *one* of the parties just don't think ahead. Apparently Star Wars weapon systems were more important than finding clean efficient sources of energy. I'm sure you could name many more bad decisions. But budgets have to be approved so you can't put the blame completely on one side.
> > IMO there is a difference between what is technically legal and what is right or wrong. When it comes to business otherwise good people seem to think anything goes, stab your friend in the back for a promotion, screw people living on fixed incomes, hey nothing personal it's just business.
>
> And from our perspective there is a difference between laying off steel workers and laying off oilfield workers. But, hey, it's not personal.This may not have come off the way I meant it, I was thinking of Cheney and Haliburton. Just because the situation is legal doesn't make it right. I hope you didn't take it the wrong way, it wasn't directed at you.
Rick
Posted by rayww on March 10, 2005, at 11:17:51
In reply to Re: more on the oil biz (not too long), posted by gromit on March 10, 2005, at 4:12:30
>> Just because the situation is legal doesn't make it right.
>
>
Rick, that is so true, and it has many applications.
The cattle/oil/soft wood lumber/war connection is one example. Canadian CFIA denies entry of American calves into Canada certain months of the year because of Anoplause and Blue tongue. This makes the Americans mad so R-Calf gets organized and fights for country of origin labelling. America goes to war and asks for Canada's support. It is denied and within a month the border closes to Canadian beef and the SARS outbreak in Toronto shuts off tourism to Canada. US tries to get Canada's support in the Missle protection program and is denied. Within two weeks the beef border opening of March 7 is indefinately postponed. Soft wood lumber is another Canada/US issue. So why won't Canada threaten to turn off the tap to oil and gas or water and power until the border is open to beef and lumber? What is driving this one? Could it have anything to do with the 9 billion surplus in Albert's tax and royalties? What are the real weapons in today's war? I think many B.C. and Albertans are ready to break away and join the Big Boys Club. Either that or change the 49th to 59th (or would it be 39th?) I could get shot for stating these opinions.
Posted by AuntieMel on March 10, 2005, at 12:05:08
In reply to Re: more on the oil biz (not too long), posted by gromit on March 10, 2005, at 4:12:30
No worries. I didn't think it was directed at me. I just can't pass up an opportunity to try to educate people that oil isn't some giant "thing" out there, that it's a lot of hard working dedicated people. And of course it takes a special breed of person that is willing to work in this type environment. Wildcatters at heart, we are.
Every year or so (it seems like more often than that, actually) the public will scream collusion and demand investigation. Congress will have one, spend slews of cash hoping (think how the folks at home would love it) to find something. They never do.
What other industry ever had a "windfall profits tax?" Can you imagine the outcry if they did that to the movie studios? And they make huge profits.
SUVs and big trucks are all over here, too. But that's nothing new. We've always had our trucks. But when I pull up my explorer and fill it up I don't complain 'cause it was my choice to by one. When my daughter got her car and we knew she'd be putting lots of miles on it back and forth to school we got her a matrix.
When I go there it isn't for the scenery, it's because the in-laws moved there. Frankly everytime I look at the artificially planted over irrigated place I don't find it attractive at all. To me it's all a facade - just like the movies. Without huge quantities of piped in water (there's another fight) it would be it's natural brown. Which I think is much more attractive.
Mom in law lives in an area where they are always fighting the bunnies because they eat the flowers. So the community does something to get rid of the bunnies. Then the coyotes don't have food and munch on the kitties and poodles, which gets them even more upset so they go after the coyotes. Talk about messing with nature! Ten free acres? Let's put in another golf course.
Ok, rant over. I guess I'm just a Texan at heart. But sometimes when I go there and hear "why do you want to live in Texas" I have a hard time staying civil. The pat answer is "let's see... good jobs, affordable housing, no state income tax, need more?"
Oh - one more thing. It isn't intentional at all if there is a shortage of gas there. Believe me, we'll happily sell you all you're willing to buy.
{tongue firmly in cheek}Oh - darn - one more thing. The 80s and cheap gas? I heard on CNN (not local news, mind you) that that 80s cheap gas price would be about 3.00 now if adjusted for inflation. And (mind you I'm not a Bush fan) neither party is good at planning ahead for energy.
Anything more you want to know about the biz? It's a wild ride for sure. What other job will happily give you a round trip ticket to Kazakhstan? Or any other stan for that matter?
Remind me to tell you about the trip on Kaz Air.
Posted by gromit on March 13, 2005, at 0:52:34
In reply to Re: more on the oil biz (not too long) » gromit, posted by rayww on March 10, 2005, at 11:17:51
I know little enough about our politics and nothing about Canadian politics, I'm not familiar with these issues. I agree when something doesn't seem right look at who has to gain from it. Politics like almost everything else is about the money.
Sorry, that's the best I've got right now.
Rick
Posted by gromit on March 14, 2005, at 6:44:43
In reply to Re: more on the oil biz (not too long) » gromit, posted by AuntieMel on March 10, 2005, at 12:05:08
Well poop, thought I posted a reply but I guess I screwed it up. It was some of my best material too |[
Posted by AuntieMel on March 14, 2005, at 13:46:10
In reply to Re: more on the oil biz (not too long) » AuntieMel, posted by gromit on March 14, 2005, at 6:44:43
I like reading your stuff.
Posted by TofuEmmy on March 15, 2005, at 10:12:43
In reply to Re: try again » gromit, posted by AuntieMel on March 14, 2005, at 13:46:10
Me too me too...and I'm a BIG Wallace & Gromit fan. :-)
Posted by AuntieMel on March 15, 2005, at 12:38:00
In reply to Re: try again, posted by TofuEmmy on March 15, 2005, at 10:12:43
Posted by AuntieMel on March 16, 2005, at 13:23:05
In reply to Re: more on the oil biz (not too long) » AuntieMel, posted by gromit on March 14, 2005, at 6:44:43
The prices you hear quoted on the news - remember they are futures on the merc, not actual selling prices - are for West Texas Intermediate.
This is some of the cleanest crude you'll find. Most crude has a higher sulphur content and sells for less. It does require more refining, though.
Posted by gromit on March 17, 2005, at 20:06:44
In reply to Re: more on the oil biz (not too long) » gromit, posted by AuntieMel on March 10, 2005, at 12:05:08
> Every year or so (it seems like more often than that, actually) the public will scream collusion and demand investigation. Congress will have one, spend slews of cash hoping (think how the folks at home would love it) to find something. They never do.
The CA legislature does the same thing, they never actually find anything but I've always thought they weren't really looking. Maybe there is nothing to find.
> What other industry ever had a "windfall profits tax?" Can you imagine the outcry if they did that to the movie studios? And they make huge profits.No no no, the movie industry doesn't make a profit. Just ask Stan Lee or anyone else who's signed for a percentage of the net.
> When I go there it isn't for the scenery, it's because the in-laws moved there. Frankly everytime I look at the artificially planted over irrigated place I don't find it attractive at all. To me it's all a facade - just like the movies. Without huge quantities of piped in water (there's another fight) it would be it's natural brown. Which I think is much more attractive.
Hey now, I grew up here and I can't imagine living anywhere else. The farther you get from L.A. the less artificial people and everything else is. I lived for a few years up north and they aren't happy sending us their water but I guess you knew that.
> Mom in law lives in an area where they are always fighting the bunnies because they eat the flowers. So the community does something to get rid of the bunnies. Then the coyotes don't have food and munch on the kitties and poodles, which gets them even more upset so they go after the coyotes. Talk about messing with nature! Ten free acres? Let's put in another golf course.We keep pushing farther out, everyone wants to live in the hills then they are surprised when the carnivores do what comes naturally. Ok out of the blue, I think you should be able to hunt whatever animal you want as long as you only use a knife. Go after that huge buck now, please.
> Oh - one more thing. It isn't intentional at all if there is a shortage of gas there. Believe me, we'll happily sell you all you're willing to buy.
> {tongue firmly in cheek}I was actually talking about local refineries but maybe they aren't locally owned. I live within 20 miles of one of the largest ports in the world. There are refineries all around it. How can our gas be that much more expensive than other areas where transport should cost a lot more?
> Remind me to tell you about the trip on Kaz Air.Eeep, I get nervous enough just going to TJ.
Rick
Posted by gromit on March 18, 2005, at 1:30:31
In reply to Re: try again, posted by TofuEmmy on March 15, 2005, at 10:12:43
Posted by AuntieMel on March 21, 2005, at 13:48:16
In reply to Re: more on the oil biz (not too long) » AuntieMel, posted by gromit on March 17, 2005, at 20:06:44
> The CA legislature does the same thing, they never actually find anything but I've always thought they weren't really looking. Maybe there is nothing to find.
>I'm quite sure if there was something to find one of the investigations would have found it.
Nothing pleases the voters more than bashing the oil biz.
> No no no, the movie industry doesn't make a profit. Just ask Stan Lee or anyone else who's signed for a percentage of the net.
>Maybe it's bad press - like the oil biz? We're always hearing of films grossing many times more than they cost to make - in the first week or two.
>
> Hey now, I grew up here and I can't imagine living anywhere else. The farther you get from L.A. the less artificial people and everything else is. I lived for a few years up north and they aren't happy sending us their water but I guess you knew that.
>Just like I can't imagine living anywhere but here, right? Only we've learned not to toot our own horn too much - last time we did we ended up with a huge influx of people from out of state here to make money, complaining about how much better life is "back home." Right. Except for the jobs and cost of living, right?
>
> We keep pushing farther out, everyone wants to live in the hills then they are surprised when the carnivores do what comes naturally. Ok out of the blue, I think you should be able to hunt whatever animal you want as long as you only use a knife. Go after that huge buck now, please.
>The inlaws are in Orange County. Not exactly newly settled.
I would add bow and arrow to your knife. And shut down those awful places that let the big game out of the cage so you can blow it away. What's the point there? I've even heard of one where you can do the shooting online by remote control. Ick.
>
> I was actually talking about local refineries but maybe they aren't locally owned. I live within 20 miles of one of the largest ports in the world. There are refineries all around it. How can our gas be that much more expensive than other areas where transport should cost a lot more?
>Don't forget the special mixture. I'd guess the refineries near you are all very old and probably not capable of making it. New ones have been near impossible to build there for at least 20 years.
And don't forget the exchange rate. Our current monetary policy is to let the dollar fall so exports will be cheaper and thus increase.
The euro on 1-1-01 could be bought for 94 cents. Today it costs $1.33. A barrel of oil at $55.00 today would be only $38.90 if the exchange rate was the same. And that doesn't add in any inflation.
> > Remind me to tell you about the trip on Kaz Air.
>
> Eeep, I get nervous enough just going to TJ.
>I'm scared of flying - but that one was beyond scared. On the other hand it was so strange I wasn't sure I wasn't dreaming. Funny story if you can handle it.
If you had babblemail turned on I'd send you a link to housing prices in my general area. But you'd need to prepare for a real culture shock. Brother in law came out when we just bought it and was shocked at how cheap it was.
Posted by AuntieMel on March 21, 2005, at 17:03:19
In reply to Re: more on the oil biz (not too long) » AuntieMel, posted by gromit on March 17, 2005, at 20:06:44
The CA legislature does the same thing, they never actually find anything but I've always thought they weren't really looking. Maybe there is nothing to find.
------------
The Texas leg is in session right now. The tidbit is that it only meets every other year for 140 days. Most things of any import require a constitutional ammendment (and a vote.)
The gov can call a special session, lasting up to 30 days. That sessions can only consider the thing(s) that the gov called the session for.
They can't do too much damage.
Posted by gromit on March 23, 2005, at 0:29:31
In reply to Re: more on the oil biz (not too long) » gromit, posted by AuntieMel on March 21, 2005, at 13:48:16
> Maybe it's bad press - like the oil biz? We're always hearing of films grossing many times more than they cost to make - in the first week or two.
You said the key word, gross, IMO these guys just know how to manipulate the financials. Spiderman had the biggest opening weekend ever, maybe that has been beaten now I don't know, but Stan Lee had to sue to get paid.
> Just like I can't imagine living anywhere but here, right? Only we've learned not to toot our own horn too much - last time we did we ended up with a huge influx of people from out of state here to make money, complaining about how much better life is "back home." Right. Except for the jobs and cost of living, right?I forget the percentage of Californians that were actually born here, it's low. I don't think most people want any more but who could afford a house here anyway. There used to be a sticker that was popular that read "Welcome to California, now go home".
> The inlaws are in Orange County. Not exactly newly settled.
Hah, what a coinkydink. I've been living in "The OC" for 20 years or so. I won't mention exactly where but there are a lot of mice around here, the damn things are everywhere. ;) No it's not newly settled but they keep pushing farther out into the hills, what else can you expect when you invade these animal's territory.
I would have run away screaming a long time ago but my wife has her whole family nearby and she's not willing to move. Ten years or so ago I had an opportunity at a company in Scott's Valley. Now that's a beautiful place, if you haven't been already the Santa Cruz / Monterey area is worth visiting. You can't judge California by LA / Orange County. I haven't been to Texas since I was a kid, all I can remember is the being inside the Astrodome. It was awesome, it was the biggest thing I'd ever seen.
> I would add bow and arrow to your knife. And shut down those awful places that let the big game out of the cage so you can blow it away. What's the point there? I've even heard of one where you can do the shooting online by remote control. Ick.Arghhh, hadn't heard about the remote control thing. Forgive my ignorance, do people even eat these animals or just put their heads on a wall? I'm resisting a strong urge to go any farther on this issue because I won't be able to remain civil. I do eat meat but I wonder what percentage of people would go veg if they had to do the killing themselves.
Here's something off topic but funny. I was reading a fish magazine years ago and some guy had written in about his sick fish. He described the symptoms and wanted to know how to treat the fish but wondered if it did die was it ok to eat. Yuk.
> Don't forget the special mixture. I'd guess the refineries near you are all very old and probably not capable of making it. New ones have been near impossible to build there for at least 20 years.
I don't what their capabilities are, they were here when I got here so they are at least 20 years old. Let me make sure I understand what you're saying. We have refineries right here but can't actually burn the fuel they produce so we import it from somewhere else? It doesn't make any sense, our government in action, too much comedy. We should have to pay to see their act, oh wait, we do.
> And don't forget the exchange rate. Our current monetary policy is to let the dollar fall so exports will be cheaper and thus increase.
I didn't think it was intentional. I thought it was happening because the rest of the world can see what 51% of us apparently can't. It sounds right, big business makes a ton on exports and passes the increased cost of imports on to us. Maybe in another 4 years people will be tired of getting trickled on but I'm not holding my breath.
> I'm scared of flying - but that one was beyond scared. On the other hand it was so strange I wasn't sure I wasn't dreaming. Funny story if you can handle it.
Sure, strange is good, I'm only afraid of people. I love flying, especially the takeoff in a jet. Have you flown out of John Wayne though? That was the one time I got scared in a plane, apparently noise laws require them to kill the engines for a few seconds on takeoff. The first time my heart just stopped, I'm looking around and people are reading their magazines and I'm thinking what the heck is wrong with them, don't they know they're about to die?
> If you had babblemail turned on I'd send you a link to housing prices in my general area. But you'd need to prepare for a real culture shock. Brother in law came out when we just bought it and was shocked at how cheap it was.
Well the wife isn't going anywhere, I'll check how to turn it on anyway though. I'm guessing the average price is less than the around half a mil it is here.
Rick
Posted by AuntieMel on March 23, 2005, at 9:05:06
In reply to Re: more on the oil biz (not too long), posted by gromit on March 23, 2005, at 0:29:31
"I forget the percentage of Californians that were actually born here, it's low."
Same here. I'm third generation, a true oddity.
"Now that's a beautiful place, if you haven't been already the Santa Cruz / Monterey area is worth visiting. You can't judge California by LA / Orange County."
I have, and I have a niece in the area. If I were to move it would be a bit crowded for me. Cambria is nice (been to Wee Robbies?) and I get to the San Francisco area any chance I can. You are right about different. They are two different states in my mind.
"all I can remember is the being inside the Astrodome. It was awesome, it was the biggest thing I'd ever seen."
You should see the new stadium if you like big. It's built right next to the dome and makes the dome look really small. I hate it.
"Forgive my ignorance, do people even eat these animals or just put their heads on a wall? I'm resisting a strong urge to go any farther on this issue because I won't be able to remain civil. I do eat meat but I wonder what percentage of people would go veg if they had to do the killing themselves."
I think they just put the heads on the wall. Probably have them shipped ready for hanging. Gag.
My son wanted to go hunting really bad when he was young. Finally hubby and my brother took him out rabbit hunting. Two drunks in a pickup that night - but mom's place is so far out in the country they couldn't hurt anyone.
I told him he could go - but *only* if he cleaned them when he got back so they could be put in the freezer - and that he had to eat them. Bro told him to watch out for the intestines - about 2 seconds too late.
He never asked to go hunting again.
"We have refineries right here but can't actually burn the fuel they produce so we import it from somewhere else? "
I don't know that for sure. It was a guess based on the age. It would be interesting to find out though. Have they ever made the beaches close like the sewage does?
"I didn't think it was intentional. I thought it was happening because the rest of the world can see what 51% of us apparently can't."
I don't know if any action has been taken to *make* the dollar fall, but I've heard from reliable media sources that it is an unvoiced - to the public - policy to let it fall.
"Have you flown out of John Wayne though?"
Many, many times. It's way closer to the inlaws than lax is. You have to love the noise abatements stuff. Risk the flying public so the plates don't rattle in Newport Beach.
Wait til/if they add the new airport at El Toro. Last I heard they wanted to put the runways so the planes aim at the hills. The pilots don't like the idea.
Kaz air. Next post.
Posted by AuntieMel on March 23, 2005, at 11:03:18
In reply to Re: more on the oil biz (not too long), posted by gromit on March 23, 2005, at 0:29:31
Kaz air:
The trip was a twoish week long stint in Atyrau, on the north bank of the Caspian. To get there, you had to take an 8 hour flight from Frankfurt to Almaty (the capital) and then catch a local flight halfway back. The trip going wasn't too bad, because I lucked into hopping a ride on an oil company charter.
The trip back was another story. Here I was in a place that turned out to be my least favorite place - one guy that went there had also been to Nigeria and said he would go back to Nigeria, but not Atyrau - so I would do nearly anything, including Kaz air, to get home.
Fuel shortages were common and foreign carriers had first dibs, so my flight was about six hours (and a day) late. But it was finally time to go.
I sat in the airport waiting room until I was given a chunk of cardboard my translator said was a boarding pass, and then followed the herds through "security" (ha!) and onto the plane, and old Russian Tupelov. Now, I'm a smoker and seriously addicted to nicotine, but as soon as I got up the stairs and to the door of the plane and caught a whiff of the jet fuel my first wish was: whatever you do, please do not turn off the no smoking sign. Luckily they didn't.
The stewardess herded us in, getting us to file into the seats, first come first sit, all crammed into the front with the back half of the plane empty. Lucky again! I got a window, and a seat belt that worked.
We took off, so far so good. Then they started serving the 'meal.' The stewardess came down the aisle and passed out bowls, and then came out with a huge pot of soup and started ladling it into the bowls. That's about when I pretended to be asleep. After the soup they handed out baggies with a sandwich and a couple of cookies - obviously just made in someones kitchen.
Flying along, I started looking around the plane. One, and only one, thing on the plane was in English. Way up towards the ceiling, above the emergency exit, was a round hatch that said, get this, "escape rope."
Hey, at least *I* knew how to get out. The rest were doomed.
So, flying a little longer, I noticed the plane was sort of swaying a bit from side to side. Not too bad, but noticible. Wonderful! Now they've got a kid flying the plane! Sure hope this one doesn't have epilepsy.
No joke.
By then I figured I wasn't going to make it home. But, at least this way was better than the slow radioactive poisoning I might have faced, had I stayed.
Coming into the airport, land in sight, I started to get hope again. But then came the descent.
Have you ever been on a jet that comes in for landing nose down? Me either. But the stewardess didn't look too worried and by then I wasn't capable of fear, so what the hey?
The flight ended with a chuckle of a sort. I looked to the back of the plane and every seat that was unoccupied had collapsed forward.
Like my boss had told me - they don't find oil in nice places. When I first went to Poland (wonderful place, go if you get a chance) I thought Americans don't know how good they have it. When I went to Kazahkstan I thought Poles don't know how good they've got it. I'll never complain about an American public toilet again.
Posted by Mark H. on March 24, 2005, at 10:43:49
In reply to Re: kaz air » gromit, posted by AuntieMel on March 23, 2005, at 11:03:18
I heard this morning about the big refinery explosion in Texas. My condolences to anyone affected.
Mark H.
Posted by gromit on March 24, 2005, at 22:31:16
In reply to Re: kaz air » gromit, posted by AuntieMel on March 23, 2005, at 11:03:18
Posted by gromit on March 25, 2005, at 0:57:16
In reply to Re: more not on the oil biz » gromit, posted by AuntieMel on March 23, 2005, at 9:05:06
> I have, and I have a niece in the area. If I were to move it would be a bit crowded for me. Cambria is nice (been to Wee Robbies?) and I get to the San Francisco area any chance I can. You are right about different. They are two different states in my mind.
I haven't been up that way in quite a while but crowded? There still has to be areas in the hills that aren't but they're probably expensive. No I haven't been to Robbies, at least I don't remember if I have. When I was living up there I was kind of out of it.
Yeah it is like a different state, a lot of people up there don't like us much although I don't think the feeling is mutual. The one exception is the SF Giants who are hated of course.
> You should see the new stadium if you like big. It's built right next to the dome and makes the dome look really small. I hate it.
No I don't like big or domes, it just made an impression.
> I don't know that for sure. It was a guess based on the age. It would be interesting to find out though. Have they ever made the beaches close like the sewage does?Ha, no like you said the only spills I've ever heard about came from ships.
> Wait til/if they add the new airport at El Toro. Last I heard they wanted to put the runways so the planes aim at the hills. The pilots don't like the idea.I don't think there will ever be an airport there, the people in Newport aren't the only ones with juice. I'm sad that it closed, I used to eat lunch by the end of the runway so I could watch the planes.
I was sorry to read about the explosion also.
Rick
Posted by AuntieMel on March 25, 2005, at 10:30:12
In reply to Re: Sad Day for the Oil Biz » AuntieMel, posted by Mark H. on March 24, 2005, at 10:43:49
Accidents like that do happen in refineries, but it is still hard.
I didn't know anyone in it, but for a while I wondered. Before I got my current job (the exploration side) I worked in petrochem doing bits of plant design. Usually people from the design stage help with the shutdowns.
To the uninitiated, hearing a plant is in shutdown sounds pretty benign. Shutdown and restart are actually the most dangerous times. They shut the plant down for maintenence, and also do any design change work they need to do, and then bring it back up. If *anything* wasn't done correctly the startup can go bad. And worse, instead of the usual few people in the control room there are possibly hundreds around that were involved in the maintenence.
It was the only thing on the news here wednesday afternoon and yesterday.
I don't live anywhere close to the area with the plants, but we saw it blow by blow on tv. It was amazing how many ambulances and choppers were ferrying the wounded. They would land, let off a patient and go right back.
Safety is so highly stressed in these areas that the accident rate is low. When one does happen, though, it is a sight to behold. Each plant has it's own fire department and EMTs, plus all the plants in the area are in a cooperative where they send there people in to help. Everyone (and I mean everyone) is drilled over and over on what to do in case of emergency. A group of us visited one once and got a full safety briefing - and escorts to watch out for us. No one has to think as what to do is second nature.
I think the reality of it hits, and the safety warnings are taken seriously, when they take your footprints.
Sorry for the ramble. I'm still digesting.
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