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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by MKB on December 10, 2004, at 21:20:59
In reply to Re: To everyone who lives in the USA, posted by lynch03 on December 10, 2004, at 19:03:25
I think in this particular election the issue of gay marriage was a much bigger factor than abortion.
Posted by lynch03 on December 10, 2004, at 21:30:24
In reply to Re: To everyone who lives in the USA » lynch03, posted by MKB on December 10, 2004, at 21:20:59
> I think in this particular election the issue of gay marriage was a much bigger factor than abortion.
But all the right wing religious sects were all persuading people to vote "pro life" and if they didn't it would be a sin........
I agree though they were both very pivotal issues..in fact CLinton told kerry to take a stance AGAINST gay marriage before the election.. who knows what effect it would've had if he listend.
Posted by MKB on December 10, 2004, at 21:46:40
In reply to Re: To everyone who lives in the USA, posted by lynch03 on December 10, 2004, at 21:30:24
I think "sects" is an unfortunate choice of words. "Sects" are not likely to have much of an impact on an election.
Most conservative Christian denominations are against gay marriage and abortion, but I don't believe church members blindly obey their church leaders. I think the main factor is that people were mobilized to act on their beliefs. Christians finally realized that their votes could make a difference and that past apathy has been a factor in a perceived decline in moral values in the United States. Conservative Christians have as much right to make their voice heard as anyone else, and they chose the correct forum...the voting booth.
Uh, oh, here it comes. I better take cover.
Posted by lynch03 on December 10, 2004, at 23:02:45
In reply to Re: To everyone who lives in the USA » lynch03, posted by MKB on December 10, 2004, at 21:46:40
> I think "sects" is an unfortunate choice of words. "Sects" are not likely to have much of an impact on an election.
>
> Most conservative Christian denominations are against gay marriage and abortion, but I don't believe church members blindly obey their church leaders. I think the main factor is that people were mobilized to act on their beliefs. Christians finally realized that their votes could make a difference and that past apathy has been a factor in a perceived decline in moral values in the United States. Conservative Christians have as much right to make their voice heard as anyone else, and they chose the correct forum...the voting booth.
>
> Uh, oh, here it comes. I better take cover.
Whatever you want to call them. The right wing christians as a whole have been coarsed by there religion to vote a certain way. Some church's have been advancing the idea that voting for kerry would be a sin based on one issue.
They vote because there church tells them to..if that wasn't a factor they wouldn't ordinarily care.. it's not about formulating there own opinions it's about being consistent with there faith, and apparently the evangelicals have taken marriage and abortion as there top priorities.. But it is just so hypocritical to vote for bush based on morality issues like HUMAN LIFE and if they were not blindly following there church and were not completely ignorant of politics they might see that.. and im not even going to get into the reasoning now..
Posted by King Vultan on December 10, 2004, at 23:31:43
In reply to To everyone who lives in the USA, posted by ed_uk on December 10, 2004, at 11:38:37
The country is extremely polarized right now--basically, the conservatives love Bush, the liberals loathe him, and the moderates, if there are any great quantity left, are somewhere in between. Overall, though, I would say that President Bush is not extremely popular. Going into Iraq was not nearly as politically popular as the 1991 Gulf War and has flat out antagonized a fairly large number of Americans.
Todd
Posted by Bling Bling on December 11, 2004, at 4:58:28
In reply to To everyone who lives in the USA, posted by ed_uk on December 10, 2004, at 11:38:37
60,608,582 voted for him out of a population of 293,027,571. That's roughly 20%.
Posted by ed_uk on December 11, 2004, at 17:52:13
In reply to Re: To everyone who lives in the USA, posted by Bling Bling on December 11, 2004, at 4:58:28
People in England are generally very cynical about politics. On TV, we see American people cheering Bush. It's funny how there is a different culture here, it's rare for people to cheer the prime minister!
Ed.
Posted by Mr Sandman on December 11, 2004, at 18:20:39
In reply to Re: Politics UK vs USA, posted by ed_uk on December 11, 2004, at 17:52:13
THe President of the USA is both head of government (with executive powers roughly equivalent to your PM) AND head of state (a symbolic, ceremonial role roughly equivalent to that of your queen.)
A lot of folks here revere the presidency as a symbol of national unity, even when they despise the occupant of the office. Many of us are especially reluctant to criticize our President in time of war, as he is Constitutionally the Commander-in-Chief Of our armed forces.
That's a textbook answer. On top of that, Mr. Bush's chief political adviser Karl Rove
has stated that what we Yanks want most is "the appearance of strength" in a President--which has led Mr.Bush to adopt a posture of stubbornness bordering on infallibility.
As for the cheering multitudes, Virtually all of Mr. Bush's appearances are before ticketed partians, government employees, or members of the military--seldom if ever does our great democratic leader appear before the general public.I hope this helps.
> People in England are generally very cynical about politics. On TV, we see American people cheering Bush. It's funny how there is a different culture here, it's rare for people to cheer the prime minister!
>
> Ed.
Posted by AuntieMel on December 11, 2004, at 19:39:30
In reply to Re: Politics UK vs USA, posted by ed_uk on December 11, 2004, at 17:52:13
That's largely because the pres is elected directly, not his "government" (party.) - the cheering, I mean.
Campaign stops screen the crowd they let in so the photos and videos only show happy, cheering people. Both parties do that.
How popular? Enough to get more than half the folks that bothered to vote on his side.
Disclosure - I didn't vote for him....
Posted by Jai Narayan on December 11, 2004, at 20:40:36
In reply to Re: Politics UK vs USA » ed_uk, posted by AuntieMel on December 11, 2004, at 19:39:30
okay I think we would be really surprised by how legal the election really was.
we need help in this country....
HELP!
democracy has lost.
we are spiralling into.....
I have always wondered how Germany was for the Jews before all the.....
came.....
I guess it's our turn now.
Jai
Posted by MKB on December 11, 2004, at 21:00:33
In reply to Re: Politics UK vs USA, posted by Jai Narayan on December 11, 2004, at 20:40:36
I am going to make some statements that include generalizations based on the posts I've seen on this board. They are not directed to any particular person.
I am continually stunned by the vicious, unfounded, sensational, personal attacks on our President. They sound hysterical and mentally unbalanced to me. Maybe that's why you won't find very many conservatives even bothering to drop by here. This forum appears to me to be headed toward a Bush Bashing Party more than any kind of rational, intelligent discussion among individuals who are willing to discuss issues respectfully.
Y'all might as well hang out a sign: Conservatives Unwelcome
Unless some of you are willing to change the way you express yourself, you might as well forget seeing anything meaningful happen here.
Posted by Jilly on December 11, 2004, at 21:01:31
In reply to Re: To everyone who lives in the USA, posted by King Vultan on December 10, 2004, at 23:31:43
I just joined the site, so I was reading some of the recently old posts. Since I'm a conservative I just wanted to say that not all of us voted for Bush just because of abortion. Conservatives often get portrayed as Ignorant Bible carrying nuts. And I often feel like my opinions are ignored by the other side because they dimiss us as crazies. I may disagree with the other side, but I will always listen to them. I am as curious to see what will happen in the next four years as everyone else is. I have a question for those of you on the other side, (i'm just curious, honest!) what do you think of Hilary now adopting a more right position on some issues? The press thinks she's setting herself up to run in 4 years, do you?
Jillian
Posted by jay on December 12, 2004, at 2:07:06
In reply to To everyone who lives in the USA, posted by ed_uk on December 10, 2004, at 11:38:37
> Hi,
>
> I just wanted to ask.... How popular is president Bush in the US? .....he's very unpopular in the UK!
>
> Ed.Only 12 percent of Canadians would elect W. Bush if he where on the ticket here, according to a
Toronto Star poll. I think we have p*ssed him off too in a number of ways:1) Gay Marriage is now legal/recognized across Canada and in every Canadian province (Bush wants to make it illegal)
2) Analysists predict pot will be completely legal for personal use across Canada in the next 4-5 years. (Bush says he despises this, worth noting he was a former (and may still be) illegal substance abuser.)
3)A large number of Americans want to move to Canada just after the Bush win in the election, according to the Immigration Canada website.
4) Canada may be the most tolerant yet rational country in the world, an Amnesty International study reveals. Politically we have rejected extremists, and remained the most racially diverse country in the world. (per capita)
"Oh Canada...Our Home and Native land.." :-) (from our National Anthem)
Peace,
Jay
Posted by Bling Bling on December 12, 2004, at 3:12:31
In reply to Re: Politics UK vs USA » Jai Narayan, posted by MKB on December 11, 2004, at 21:00:33
> I am going to make some statements that include generalizations based on the posts I've seen on this board. They are not directed to any particular person.
>
> I am continually stunned by the vicious, unfounded, sensational, personal attacks on our President. They sound hysterical and mentally unbalanced to me. Maybe that's why you won't find very many conservatives even bothering to drop by here. This forum appears to me to be headed toward a Bush Bashing Party more than any kind of rational, intelligent discussion among individuals who are willing to discuss issues respectfully.
>
> Y'all might as well hang out a sign: Conservatives Unwelcome
>
> Unless some of you are willing to change the way you express yourself, you might as well forget seeing anything meaningful happen here.
>
>I'd like to hear what Bush voters actually voted for. A lot seem to think that the war in Iraq will somehow stop terrorist activities at home, but this clearly isn't the case. It's very sad that all the carnage in Iraq is for the benefit of buisnesses & shareholders in the US & UK.
Posted by MKB on December 12, 2004, at 9:28:09
In reply to What do conservative Americans stand for? » MKB, posted by Bling Bling on December 12, 2004, at 3:12:31
I hate to generalize, but the question seems to require it:
1. Defining marriage as a union of one man and one woman
2. Protection for unborn children
3. Strong defense, including adequate funding for our military
4. Being proactive against terrorism
5. Support for Israel's right to exist
6. Separation of "church" and state - not God and state
7. Less taxation
8. Giving individuals more control over their money
9. Passing initiatives to help small businesses succeed
10.Promoting more involvement of churches and private institutions in providing for the underprivileged and making this less a role for the federal government
11. Developing an American economy that is not dependent on foreign oilEven though Bush has pushed for No Child Left Behind, this is not a typically conservative stance, and I personally disagree with his handling of education reform.
I personally favor strong protections of the environment, though this is not typically a conservative stance.
Now, what do "liberal" Americans stand for?
Posted by KaraS on December 12, 2004, at 14:48:29
In reply to Re: To everyone who lives in the USA, posted by King Vultan on December 10, 2004, at 23:31:43
I think Bush is the most divisive President we've ever had. Though he squeeked by in the election, there are a huge number/percentage of Americans who despise him and feel that his is completely on the wrong course.
Not even all of the conservatives like Bush - although they voted for him over Kerry. I have a conservative friend who dislikes Bush because she sees him as too liberal!!! Her thinking is that conservatives are for fiscal responsibility (balanced budgets etc.) and Bush has increased the deficit astronomically without providing any means for remedying the situation. That really isn't true conservatism.
I disagree with Bush on almost every issue including the unrestrained spending.
Posted by Jai Narayan on December 12, 2004, at 21:05:37
In reply to Re: What do conservative Americans stand for? » Bling Bling, posted by MKB on December 12, 2004, at 9:28:09
My dear MKB I see you're back.
Well how is the baby?I hope all went well.
Jai
the following is what I believe in:
Ten Key Values of the Green Party
1. GRASSROOTS DEMOCRACY
Every human being deserves a say in the decisions that affect their lives and not be subject to the will of another. Therefore, we will work to increase public participation at every level of government and to ensure that our public representatives are fully accountable to the people who elect them. We will also work to create new types of political organizations which expand the process of participatory democracy by directly including citizens in the decision-making process.
2. SOCIAL JUSTICE AND EQUAL OPPORTUNITY
All persons should have the rights and opportunity to benefit equally from the resources afforded us by society and the environment. We must consciously confront in ourselves, our organizations, and society at large, barriers such as racism and class oppression, sexism and homophobia, ageism and disability, which act to deny fair treatment and equal justice under the law.
3. ECOLOGICAL WISDOM
Human societies must operate with the understanding that we are part of nature, not separate from nature. We must maintain an ecological balance and live within the ecological and resource limits of our communities and our planet. We support a sustainable society which utilizes resources in such a way that future generations will benefit and not suffer from the practices of our generation. To this end we must practice agriculture which replenishes the soil; move to an energy efficient economy; and live in ways that respect the integrity of natural systems.
4. NON-VIOLENCE
It is essential that we develop effective alternatives to society’s current patterns of violence. We will work to demilitarize, and eliminate weapons of mass destruction, without being naive about the intentions of other governments. We recognize the need for self-defense and the defense of others who are in helpless situations. We promote non-violent methods to oppose practices and policies with which we disagree, and will guide our actions toward lasting personal, community and global peace.
5. DECENTRALIZATION
Centralization of wealth and power contributes to social and economic injustice, environmental destruction, and militarization. Therefore, we support a restructuring of social, political and economic institutions away from a system which is controlled by and mostly benefits the powerful few, to a democratic, less bureaucratic system. Decision-making should, as much as possible, remain at the individual and local level, while assuring that civil rights are protected for all citizens.
6. COMMUNITY-BASED ECONOMICS AND ECONOMIC JUSTICE
We recognize it is essential to create a vibrant and sustainable economic system, one that can create jobs and provide a decent standard of living for all people while maintaining a healthy ecological balance. A successful economic system will offer meaningful work with dignity, while paying a “living wage” which reflects the real value of a person’s work.
Local communities must look to economic development that assures protection of the environment and workers’ rights; broad citizen participation in planning; and enhancement of our “quality of life.” We support independently owned and operated companies which are socially responsible, as well as co-operatives and public enterprises that distribute resources and control to more people through democratic participation.
7. FEMINISM AND GENDER EQUITY
We have inherited a social system based on male domination of politics and economics. We call for the replacement of the cultural ethics of domination and control with more cooperative ways of interacting that respect differences of opinion and gender. Human values such as equity between the sexes, interpersonal responsibility, and honesty must be developed with moral conscience. We should remember that the process that determines our decisions and actions is just as important as achieving the outcome we want.
8. RESPECT FOR DIVERSITY
We believe it is important to value cultural, ethnic, racial, sexual, religious and spiritual diversity, and to promote the development of respectful relationships across these lines.
We believe that the many diverse elements of society should be reflected in our organizations and decision-making bodies, and we support the leadership of people who have been traditionally closed out of leadership roles. We acknowledge and encourage respect for other life forms than our own and the preservation of biodiversity.
9. PERSONAL AND GLOBAL RESPONSIBILITY
We encourage individuals to act to improve their personal well-being and, at the same time, to enhance ecological balance and social harmony. We seek to join with people and organizations around the world to foster peace, economic justice, and the health of the planet.
10. FUTURE FOCUS AND SUSTAINABILITY
Our actions and policies should be motivated by long-term goals. We seek to protect valuable natural resources, safely disposing of or “unmaking” all waste we create, while developing a sustainable economics that does not depend on continual expansion for survival. We must counterbalance the drive for short-term profits by assuring that economic development, new technologies, and fiscal policies are responsible to future generations who will inherit the results of our actions.
Posted by MKB on December 12, 2004, at 21:45:57
In reply to Re: What do conservative Americans stand for?, posted by Jai Narayan on December 12, 2004, at 21:05:37
Thanks for posting that, as it was very informative. Is there a stance on abortion?
The baby is beautiful and all went well. Thanks for asking.
Posted by Bling Bling on December 12, 2004, at 22:24:49
In reply to Re: What do conservative Americans stand for? » Bling Bling, posted by MKB on December 12, 2004, at 9:28:09
> 1. Defining marriage as a union of one man and one woman
I don't care either way about gay marriage, why should it be anyone's business.
> 2. Protection for unborn children
Far too many human beings are already here, why force more, especially since they are unwanted.
> 3. Strong defense, including adequate funding for our military
I'd agree with this. But lets not start wars & lets not leave the country except for defending an ally.
> 4. Being proactive against terrorism
This would be good, but the military should have nothing to do with this as they do more harm than good.
> 5. Support for Israel's right to exist
How is this our business?
> 6. Separation of "church" and state - not God and state
Both should be seperated from the state.
> 7. Less taxation
Agree.
> 8. Giving individuals more control over their money
Agree.
> 9. Passing initiatives to help small businesses succeed
Agree.
> 10.Promoting more involvement of churches and private institutions in providing for the underprivileged and making this less a role for the federal government.
State should provide for the underpriviliged.
> 11. Developing an American economy that is not dependent on foreign oil
Agree.
>
> Even though Bush has pushed for No Child Left Behind, this is not a typically conservative stance, and I personally disagree with his handling of education reform.
>Agree.
> I personally favor strong protections of the environment, though this is not typically a conservative stance.
>Agree.
Posted by MKB on December 12, 2004, at 23:14:48
In reply to Re: What do conservative Americans stand for? » MKB, posted by Bling Bling on December 12, 2004, at 22:24:49
You said, regarding gay marriage, why should it be anyone's business? Others have explained the conservative response to this much better than I can.
Regarding the definition of marriage as between one man and one woman, these are the four main points, according to Glenn T. Stanton of Citizen Link at family.org:
1. Same-sex families always deny children either their mother or father.
2. Same-sex family is a vast, untested social experiment with children.
3. Where does it stop? How do we say "no" to group marriage?
4. Schools will be forced to teach that the homosexual family is normal. Churches will be legally pressured to perform same-sex ceremonies.Additional links for understanding the conservative viewpoint on marriage as between one man and one woman:
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/002/938xpsxy.asp?pg=1
http://www.family.org/cforum/extras/a0032427.cfm
Posted by Bling Bling on December 12, 2004, at 23:56:49
In reply to Re: What do conservative Americans stand for? » Bling Bling, posted by MKB on December 12, 2004, at 23:14:48
> 1. Same-sex families always deny children either their mother or father.
Same-sex families usually involve adopted kids. Having two dads or 2 mums that love you has to be a heck of alot better than nothing at all.
> 2. Same-sex family is a vast, untested social experiment with children.
Same-sex family is better than a single parent family.
> 3. Where does it stop? How do we say "no" to group marriage?
Yep, I'm for monogamy.
> 4. Schools will be forced to teach that the homosexual family is normal. Churches will be legally pressured to perform same-sex ceremonies.
Why would Schools be forced to do that?
What makes you think that a gay couple would want to get married in a church? I didn't get married in a church.
>
> Additional links for understanding the conservative viewpoint on marriage as between one man and one woman:
> http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/002/938xpsxy.asp?pg=1
> http://www.family.org/cforum/extras/a0032427.cfm
>Both of these links are somewhat homophobic don't you think?
Posted by MKB on December 13, 2004, at 0:40:16
In reply to Re: What do conservative Americans stand for? » MKB, posted by Bling Bling on December 12, 2004, at 23:56:49
No, I don't think they are homophobic. I think they are realistic in examining the slippery slope of redefining marriage. The issue here is the definition of marriage.
Posted by Bling Bling on December 13, 2004, at 1:36:52
In reply to Re: What do conservative Americans stand for? » Bling Bling, posted by MKB on December 13, 2004, at 0:40:16
> No, I don't think they are homophobic. I think they are realistic in examining the slippery slope of redefining marriage. The issue here is the definition of marriage.
>
>What is the actual issue that you have with gay marriage? How will it affect you?
What you are essentially saying is that you think what gays do it wrong.
I think that Rove fella is an absolute genius for harnessing the votes of people who are homophobic to get Bush over the line, but the issue of gay marriage is pretty much a storm in a tea cup.
Posted by MKB on December 13, 2004, at 2:28:30
In reply to Re: What do conservative Americans stand for? » MKB, posted by Bling Bling on December 13, 2004, at 1:36:52
<Sigh> The answer is in the links I gave you.
It involves not so much what someone DOES, but what marriage IS. What if folks demand their "civil rights" to marry in groups, to marry their dog, to marry their mother, to marry a child, etc? Slippery slope, it is. I can guarantee you that polygamy is next.
You sound angry. I'm sorry about that. We need to think rationally, not emotionally.
Posted by Bling Bling on December 13, 2004, at 2:52:56
In reply to Re: What do conservative Americans stand for? » Bling Bling, posted by MKB on December 13, 2004, at 2:28:30
> <Sigh> The answer is in the links I gave you.
>
> It involves not so much what someone DOES, but what marriage IS. What if folks demand their "civil rights" to marry in groups, to marry their dog, to marry their mother, to marry a child, etc? Slippery slope, it is. I can guarantee you that polygamy is next.
>
> You sound angry. I'm sorry about that. We need to think rationally, not emotionally.
>
><groan> I am not angry. It's just that you sound like you are trying to group homosexuals in with pedophiles & other people that practice despicable things. Where is the rationality in that?
Hopefully homosexuals will out-number homophobics one day soon.
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