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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by moomin68 on June 20, 2010, at 14:58:24
I was found to have very low vitamin D levels about 6 months ago. I started taking Vitamin D3 and experienced the most profound improvement in my health in 20 years -- improved energy, sleep, mood, and I stopped getting sinus infections.
However... I started smoking again. I had quit 3 years previously using Wellbutrin. It was like flicking a light switch -- Wellbutrin just turned off the urge to smoke. I'm guessing my brain got its Dopamine kick from Wellbutrin instead of Nicotine, so it was relatively easy to quit.
I stopped the Wellbutrin 18 months ago. My urges to smoke came back but I was able to resist... until I started taking Vitamin D3. Now I crave cigarettes like crazy, all day, every day, and smoke more than I ever did.
In my case, it seems Vitamin D has somehow lowered or otherwise affected Dopamine levels. It has however left me feeling calmer and happier than I have for years.
Has anyone else experienced increased urges to smoke on Vitamin D? I have searched extensively but find nothing online, though Vitamin D deficiency and supplementation has only become the latest big deal in the last year or so, to the extent that regular Docs are starting to routinely test for deficiency -- so I'm not surprised such an effect would not yet be commonly reported.
Incidentally, I have also noticed I have the symptoms of low Dopamine, unless I take Magnesium Malate each day -- then they go away. But the Magnesium causes insomnia, no matter what time of day I take it. I seem to have a paradoxical reaction to a lot of things -- Magnesium is supposed to make people sleepy!
I don't know what to do. I don't want to stop taking Vitamin D. But I need to stop smoking. How else can I get the Dopamine my brain craves, without going back on Wellbutrin? I absolutely will not take pharmaceutical drugs, ever again -- that's another story!
Any and all experiences, thoughts, greatly appreciated.
Posted by desolationrower on June 21, 2010, at 23:10:06
In reply to Vitamin D, Smoking and Dopamine..., posted by moomin68 on June 20, 2010, at 14:58:24
well it seems the first thing to do would be try the wellbutrin again.
most of the studies i've seen just point to protective effect of d3 on dopaminergic neurones.
and making you want stuff is what DA nerves are supposed to do. it sounds like they are working better now.
-d/r
Posted by magnesium on September 8, 2010, at 1:17:35
In reply to Vitamin D, Smoking and Dopamine..., posted by moomin68 on June 20, 2010, at 14:58:24
> I was found to have very low vitamin D levels about 6 months ago. I started taking Vitamin D3 and experienced the most profound improvement in my health in 20 years -- improved energy, sleep, mood, and I stopped getting sinus infections.
>
> However... I started smoking again. I had quit 3 years previously using Wellbutrin. It was like flicking a light switch -- Wellbutrin just turned off the urge to smoke. I'm guessing my brain got its Dopamine kick from Wellbutrin instead of Nicotine, so it was relatively easy to quit.
>
> I stopped the Wellbutrin 18 months ago. My urges to smoke came back but I was able to resist... until I started taking Vitamin D3. Now I crave cigarettes like crazy, all day, every day, and smoke more than I ever did.
>
> In my case, it seems Vitamin D has somehow lowered or otherwise affected Dopamine levels. It has however left me feeling calmer and happier than I have for years.
>
> Has anyone else experienced increased urges to smoke on Vitamin D? I have searched extensively but find nothing online, though Vitamin D deficiency and supplementation has only become the latest big deal in the last year or so, to the extent that regular Docs are starting to routinely test for deficiency -- so I'm not surprised such an effect would not yet be commonly reported.
>
> Incidentally, I have also noticed I have the symptoms of low Dopamine, unless I take Magnesium Malate each day -- then they go away. But the Magnesium causes insomnia, no matter what time of day I take it. I seem to have a paradoxical reaction to a lot of things -- Magnesium is supposed to make people sleepy!
>
> I don't know what to do. I don't want to stop taking Vitamin D. But I need to stop smoking. How else can I get the Dopamine my brain craves, without going back on Wellbutrin? I absolutely will not take pharmaceutical drugs, ever again -- that's another story!
>
> Any and all experiences, thoughts, greatly appreciated.
Vitamin D increases tyrosine hydroxylase, a rate limiting step in the conversion of tyrosine to DOPA, which is the precursor for dopamine. So more Vitamin D--more dopamine.This study found calcitriol (metabolite of vitamin d) to "protect against METH-induced reductions in striatal and nucleus accumbens levels of DA [dopamine] and 5-HT [serotonin]"
http://www.michaelmooney.net/VitaminDReducesMethamphetamineToxicity.htmAlso interesting is the positive relationship between latitude and parkinsons disease. Vitamin d levels could be at work here.
Posted by moomin68 on September 8, 2010, at 11:53:21
In reply to Re: Vitamin D, Smoking and Dopamine..., posted by magnesium on September 8, 2010, at 1:17:35
Very interesting information and article link, thank you. What I don't understand is -- if basically more Vitamin D means more Dopamine, why doesn't taking Vitamin D reduce my desire to smoke, instead of increasing it?
Posted by magnesium on September 8, 2010, at 20:40:36
In reply to Re: Vitamin D, Smoking and Dopamine..., posted by moomin68 on September 8, 2010, at 11:53:21
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dopamine
"Dopamine's role in experiencing pleasure has been questioned by several researchers. It has been argued that dopamine is more associated with anticipatory desire and motivation (commonly referred to as "wanting") as opposed to actual consummatory pleasure (commonly referred to as "liking")."
"Clues to dopamine's role in motivation, desire, and pleasure have come from studies performed on animals. In one such study, rats were depleted of dopamine by up to 99 percent in the nucleus accumbens and neostriatum using 6-hydroxydopamine.[23] With this large reduction in dopamine, the rats would no longer eat by their own volition. The researchers then force-fed the rats food and noted whether they had the proper facial expressions indicating whether they liked or disliked it. The researchers of this study concluded that the reduction in dopamine did not reduce the rat's consummatory pleasure, only the desire to actually eat. In another study, mutant hyperdopaminergic (increased dopamine) mice show higher "wanting" but not "liking" of sweet rewards.[25]"
Dopamine neurons can have various functions depending on their type and location. Hope that helps answer your question.
Posted by Zyprexa on March 20, 2011, at 2:08:42
In reply to Vitamin D, Smoking and Dopamine..., posted by moomin68 on June 20, 2010, at 14:58:24
You could take nicotine replacement, like nicorette. Keeps me from smoking. Also I don't belive that wellbutrin increases much dopamine.
Posted by moomin68 on March 21, 2011, at 12:50:02
In reply to Re: Vitamin D, Smoking and Dopamine..., posted by Zyprexa on March 20, 2011, at 2:08:42
Thanks for your advice. I ended up quitting smoking cold-turkey.
For myself, any NRT just continues the addiction, and the only long-term cure is not having any.
The first week is hell, but it gets easier after that. I sure sleep better without nicotine stimulating my system all day, and taking my Vitamin D3 at night helps me sleep like a champ.
Posted by desolationrower on April 4, 2011, at 3:32:51
In reply to Re: Vitamin D, Smoking and Dopamine..., posted by moomin68 on March 21, 2011, at 12:50:02
i do like bupropion, or nri for nicotine w/d, and even nicotine replacement, because addiction is a lot less bad if it doesn't give you cancer.
but not smoking is great too. and so is d3. (get enought k2)
-d/r
Posted by moomin68 on April 4, 2011, at 10:17:22
In reply to Re: Vitamin D, Smoking and Dopamine..., posted by desolationrower on April 4, 2011, at 3:32:51
> i do like bupropion, or nri for nicotine w/d, and even nicotine replacement, because addiction is a lot less bad if it doesn't give you cancer.
>
> but not smoking is great too. and so is d3. (get enought k2)
>
> -d/rI quit smoking successfully using Wellbutrin 5 years ago. Once I started coming off it though, I started to "slip". Since I took a long time to come off the Wellbutrin, it was 18 months before I was fully smoking again.
In my opinion (and I'm not a medical professional, this is just from experience only) -- the only way to truly quit nicotine addiction is cold turkey. This is the only way the brain can learn to be truly free of nicotine addiction, and the dopamine pathways can completely heal.
Of course if you don't address the underlying addictive tendencies, you'll probably just move onto another addiction -- sugar in my case! The only cure for addiction in the long-run, is "emotional sobriety" and this doesn't happen by replacing addictions with other addictions.
In my laypersons understanding -- Wellbutrin inhibits the desire for nictotine because it affects Dopamine in the brain, in a similar way nicotine does.
Nicotine Replacement therapy is no different, because the underlying addiction is never addressed, only replaced in this case, or diverted as with Wellbutrin.
Wellbutrin is an addiction in my opinion, just like NRT. Quitting smoking is incredibly difficult, that's why so many methods of making it easier are marketed to us.
I see what you are saying -- that addiction is a lot less bad if it doesn't give you cancer. But if the addiction isn't truly healed, the chances of cancer are probably still greater.
Posted by helpmegod on June 1, 2011, at 18:53:39
In reply to Re: Vitamin D, Smoking and Dopamine..., posted by moomin68 on March 21, 2011, at 12:50:02
I have a history of major depression,OCD and anxiety for atleast 10 years and was treated with anti-depressants before and they worked to some extent.Later I quit and my disease returned within 3 months and since them I tried numeruous medications and they didnt work.Currently I am not taking any anti-depressants but I am in major depression.My psychiatrist recently ordered vitamin D test and it came out as 24 (according to him its low).I was asked to take vitamin d3 supplement of 2000 iu.I have been taking for atleast 4 days...any one know of when can I expect some improvement???I dont mind even if its 5 %...this is my last hope...some one please guide me...
Posted by moomin68 on June 1, 2011, at 19:30:45
In reply to Re: Vitamin D, Smoking and Dopamine... » moomin68, posted by helpmegod on June 1, 2011, at 18:53:39
> I have a history of major depression,OCD and anxiety for atleast 10 years and was treated with anti-depressants before and they worked to some extent.Later I quit and my disease returned within 3 months and since them I tried numeruous medications and they didnt work.Currently I am not taking any anti-depressants but I am in major depression.My psychiatrist recently ordered vitamin D test and it came out as 24 (according to him its low).I was asked to take vitamin d3 supplement of 2000 iu.I have been taking for atleast 4 days...any one know of when can I expect some improvement???I dont mind even if its 5 %...this is my last hope...some one please guide me...
I had a similar history to you, depression and anxiety for 15 years. Antidepressants did not help, and the side effects were awful.
A vitamin D test 18 months ago showed a level of 23, close to yours.
I started taking 2000iu per day. I then did a lot of research (Google the "Vitamin D Council") and discovered you can take much more than 2000 per day.
The key is to have regular blood tests done. I take 6000iu per day, and this puts my Vitamin D level within the "normal" range. Everyone is different -- for some people this would be too much -- for others, not enough
As soon as I started taking 5000iu per day 15 years of symptoms disappeared OVERNIGHT. These days I have no depression, no anxiety, I sleep great... I don't even get colds any more. Seriously, not one single cold in 18 months. I used to get 6 a year, and sinus infections too.
It has been a radical life change. If I forget the Vitamin D everything comes crashing back really quickly. I wish I'd had the test years ago, I feel like I lost years of my life... but on the positive side I have gained years.
Another thing that makes a big difference for me, is the brand I take. I don't know if I can post brands here or not. I found one particular brand and formulation to be way more effective than others. It's not the cheapest, but it works wonders for me. If you want to email me at doctorbob[at]other-ideas[dot]com I will give you more info. Hope I didn't do something wrong putting my email address in here. Just trying to help.
Hope some of this info helps. When I try to tell people about how radically Vitamin D has changed my life, they always look skeptical, so I kinda keep quiet about it these days!
Posted by moomin68 on June 1, 2011, at 19:38:12
In reply to Re: Vitamin D, Smoking and Dopamine..., posted by moomin68 on June 1, 2011, at 19:30:45
I also forgot to mention in my last post -- I no longer take any antidepressants. I took 12 months to wean myself off them, and any other meds that I was using to treat the side effects.
I don't drink or smoke. I take no meds. I eat a very good diet, lots of fruits and veggies, no packaged foods. I exercise every day -- even if it's just a walk. I avoid stress and monitor my sleep habits.
In short, I personally think it might be hard to tell whether Vitamin D supplements work for you, if you are doing or taking other substances. That's just my un-medical opinion, based on my own experience. I was not able to get well until I removed all the addictive substances from my life (including RX additions, which I think antidepressants are).
Posted by helpmegod on June 1, 2011, at 19:40:07
In reply to Re: Vitamin D, Smoking and Dopamine..., posted by moomin68 on June 1, 2011, at 19:38:12
Is there a number where I can call you...I am desperate...
Posted by helpmegod on June 1, 2011, at 19:52:54
In reply to Re: Vitamin D, Smoking and Dopamine..., posted by moomin68 on June 1, 2011, at 19:38:12
Thank you very much for the info and encouragement...you mentioned to send you an email ...should I send it to moomin68???
Posted by desolationrower on June 5, 2011, at 16:49:23
In reply to Re: Vitamin D, Smoking and Dopamine..., posted by helpmegod on June 1, 2011, at 19:52:54
I take the liquid drops of D3, in olive oil. Very cheap.
If you live in the northern hemisphere, this is the half of the year when you can get large doses of vitD just by going outside
i think k2 is a good idea if you take large amounts of d3
-d/r
Posted by brionk on August 3, 2011, at 13:48:14
In reply to Vitamin D, Smoking and Dopamine..., posted by moomin68 on June 20, 2010, at 14:58:24
You seem to be saying that your smoking is inevitable because you haven't found the right "aid" to make quitting easier. Smoking is a powerful addiction that takes on a life of its own once you start (or re-start, as in your case). How do you know that your struggle with quitting is any more difficult than other smokers? The quickest, and ultimately "easiest" way to quit is cold turkey. Severe withdrawal diminishes rather rapidly, day by day, and in a matter of weeks, or a month or two it's relatively easy to manage. Not quitting, procrastinating, rationalizing, looking for a magic bullet just take you farther down the path to a likely miserable and premature death from lung cancer. It really is that simple, I believe.
Posted by moomin68 on August 3, 2011, at 13:58:36
In reply to Re: Vitamin D, Smoking and Dopamine..., posted by brionk on August 3, 2011, at 13:48:14
In response to your comment (quoted below at the end of my post...)
It's interesting, I posted that over a year ago in June 2010. I have since quit smoking successfully, cold turkey. And you are absolutely right in everything you say. I was procrastinating, rationalizing and looking for a magic bullet.
I used to wait for that magic moment when the heavens would open, a bright light would shine on me and a voice say... "it's your day to quit today!!!"
Yeah, didn't happen. In the end, when I realized the games I was playing with myself... I just quit. And it was BY FAR the hardest thing I've EVER done. I disagree about the withdrawal, yes the physical part is gone in a week -- but the emotional dependence goes on for months. It's a journey.
I now don't smoke, don't drink, don't take any meds, eat great, and exercise every day. I feel amazing. All I take is Vitamin D, and Astaxanthin every day. The combination I think helps me a lot.
Sometimes I get bored. Then I realize that I have lived the life of an emotionally stunted addict since I was about 14 years old, and it's not that I'm "bored" I'm just not yet familiar with something as simple, and hard for many... as choosing to love myself.
I am currently saying the same things you just wrote to me, to a friend who wants to quit smoking. And she's giving me all the same story. You are right. Cold turkey is the ONLY way. And getting real with oneself about the games and BS we play.
> You seem to be saying that your smoking is inevitable because you haven't found the right "aid" to make quitting easier. Smoking is a powerful addiction that takes on a life of its own once you start (or re-start, as in your case). How do you know that your struggle with quitting is any more difficult than other smokers? The quickest, and ultimately "easiest" way to quit is cold turkey. Severe withdrawal diminishes rather rapidly, day by day, and in a matter of weeks, or a month or two it's relatively easy to manage. Not quitting, procrastinating, rationalizing, looking for a magic bullet just take you farther down the path to a likely miserable and premature death from lung cancer. It really is that simple, I believe.
This is the end of the thread.
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