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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by laima on March 4, 2007, at 10:47:06
In reply to Is Chronic Fatigue Syndrome real?, posted by Squiggles on March 4, 2007, at 10:15:01
I've wondered about this, too. It seems that in the past, it wasn't accepted by the medical community at all, but now it seems that they are getting to accepting it, if not fully accepting it. A virus may be involved...stress may be a factor to trigger the condition. Basically sounds as if a number of factors join together to induce the condition- not confirmed though. I don't know much at all about it, but it does sound that they are coming up with some physical, actual ideas about it (ie-not an imaginary condition). Actually, it sounds that no one quite understands it- a lot of mystery, debate, and unanswered questions.
> Is CFS what is referred to as "the Yuppie Flu"
> and does it affect your brain? Is it related
> to hypothyroidism or some endocrinological
> irregularity?
>
> Squiggles
Posted by Phillipa on March 4, 2007, at 10:47:06
In reply to Re: Is Chronic Fatigue Syndrome real? » Squiggles, posted by laima on March 4, 2007, at 10:29:13
I know it's associated with lymes disease and Spriggy got it from Epstein Var virus. Oh it's real. Love Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on March 4, 2007, at 11:02:02
In reply to Is Chronic Fatigue Syndrome real?, posted by Squiggles on March 4, 2007, at 10:15:01
Let's try and keep this thread going. Love Phillipa as it's important.
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 4, 2007, at 11:07:21
In reply to Is Chronic Fatigue Syndrome real?, posted by Squiggles on March 4, 2007, at 10:15:01
> Is CFS what is referred to as "the Yuppie Flu"
> and does it affect your brain? Is it related
> to hypothyroidism or some endocrinological
> irregularity?
>
> SquigglesEndocrine/immune. Yes, brain is seriously affected. Please don't use the dismissive term "Yuppie Flu".
http://molecular.biosciences.wsu.edu/Faculty/pall/pall_cfs.htm
Posted by Squiggles on March 4, 2007, at 11:10:29
In reply to Re: Is Chronic Fatigue Syndrome real?, posted by Phillipa on March 4, 2007, at 11:02:02
> Let's try and keep this thread going. Love Phillipa as it's important.
Well, i just found on this link on Dr. Bob's
Mental Health links -- should have looked before;
the net is full of controvery it seems:Squiggles
Posted by Phillipa on March 4, 2007, at 11:18:15
In reply to Re: Is Chronic Fatigue Syndrome real? » Squiggles, posted by Larry Hoover on March 4, 2007, at 11:07:21
Lar so how and what do you look for yourself after excercise as a 7 mile ride on your bike? Love Phillipa
Posted by Declan on March 4, 2007, at 12:15:28
In reply to Re: Is Chronic Fatigue Syndrome real?, posted by Squiggles on March 4, 2007, at 11:10:29
Where does chronic fatigue end and depression begin?
Is chronic fatigue depression without the mood component?
Some people's description of their depression sounds like chronic fatigue to me.
It's quite real, just like depression is, and would likely feel moreso if there was an antifatigue drug right there for the purpose.
Obviously not amphetamine though.
Posted by Squiggles on March 4, 2007, at 13:12:33
In reply to Re: Is Chronic Fatigue Syndrome real?, posted by Declan on March 4, 2007, at 12:15:28
To me it sounds like chronic unhappiness.
What used to be called 'neurasthenia'.Squiggles
Posted by notfred on March 4, 2007, at 13:57:36
In reply to Is Chronic Fatigue Syndrome real?, posted by Squiggles on March 4, 2007, at 10:15:01
> Is CFS what is referred to as "the Yuppie Flu"
I do not think "the Yuppie Flu" is a fair or nice way to refer to CFS. There are people here with CFS
so I think their feelings should be considered.You can question the existance of something without
resorting to dismissive terms.
Posted by notfred on March 4, 2007, at 14:01:23
In reply to Re: Is Chronic Fatigue Syndrome real?, posted by Squiggles on March 4, 2007, at 13:12:33
a patient must satisfy two criteria:
1. Have severe chronic fatigue of six months or longer duration with other known medical conditions excluded by clinical diagnosis; and
2. Concurrently have four or more of the following symptoms: substantial impairment in short-term memory or concentration; sore throat; tender lymph nodes; muscle pain; multi-joint pain without swelling or redness; headaches of a new type, pattern or severity; unrefreshing sleep; and post-exertional malaise lasting more than 24 hours.
Posted by Declan on March 4, 2007, at 14:09:42
In reply to Re: Is Chronic Fatigue Syndrome real?, posted by notfred on March 4, 2007, at 14:01:23
I think neurasthenia is a really cool diagnosis.
The problem with modern diagnoses is just one of lack of style.
Involutional melancholia has a nice ring to it too.
Posted by notfred on March 4, 2007, at 14:18:02
In reply to Re: Is Chronic Fatigue Syndrome real?, posted by Declan on March 4, 2007, at 14:09:42
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurasthenia
The modern view holds that the main problem of neurasthenia was that it attempted to group together a wide variety of cases. In recent years, Richard M. Fogoros has posited that perhaps neurasthenia was a word that could include some psychiatric conditions, but more importantly, many physiological conditions marginally more understood by the medical community, such as fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue syndrome, and various forms of dysautonomia, among others. He emphasizes that the majority of patients who would have once been diagnosed with neurasthenia have conditions that are "real, honest-to-goodness physiologic (as opposed to psychologic) disorders... and while they can make anybody crazy, they are not caused by craziness."
Posted by Squiggles on March 4, 2007, at 14:28:00
In reply to Re: Is Chronic Fatigue Syndrome real?, posted by notfred on March 4, 2007, at 13:57:36
> > Is CFS what is referred to as "the Yuppie Flu"
>
>
> I do not think "the Yuppie Flu" is a fair or nice way to refer to CFS. There are people here with CFS
> so I think their feelings should be considered.
>
> You can question the existance of something without
> resorting to dismissive terms.
>
That's not what I called it. I called it
Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. But the press has
referred to it as "Yuppie Flu". So, don't
blame me for that euphesism - it's not mine. And
futhermore, I am not sure if that is what they meant by "yuppie flu" -- that is why I asked.Squiggles
Posted by Squiggles on March 4, 2007, at 15:32:06
In reply to Re: Is Chronic Fatigue Syndrome real?, posted by notfred on March 4, 2007, at 14:01:23
> a patient must satisfy two criteria:
>
> 1. Have severe chronic fatigue of six months or longer duration with other known medical conditions excluded by clinical diagnosis; and
>
>
>
> 2. Concurrently have four or more of the following symptoms: substantial impairment in short-term memory or concentration; sore throat; tender lymph nodes; muscle pain; multi-joint pain without swelling or redness; headaches of a new type, pattern or severity; unrefreshing sleep; and post-exertional malaise lasting more than 24 hours.
>
I know someone who has the symptoms. But if there were an attempt at diagnosis, it would take a lot of work to do the blood and neuro tests (exaggerating a bit, after seeing the Wikipedia article).Squiggles
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 4, 2007, at 17:12:23
In reply to Re: Is Chronic Fatigue Syndrome real?, posted by Squiggles on March 4, 2007, at 15:32:06
> I know someone who has the symptoms. But if there were an attempt at diagnosis, it would take a lot of work to do the blood and neuro tests (exaggerating a bit, after seeing the Wikipedia article).
>
> SquigglesAs it currently is diagnosed, all possible alternative explanations must be ruled out. Although I suppose it makes sense to test for some of these serious morbidities, there is no reason someone might not jump straight into treatment. The link I earlier provided has treatment strategies summarized on the main page. http://molecular.biosciences.wsu.edu/Faculty/pall/pall_main.htm
Lar
Posted by Declan on March 4, 2007, at 17:26:04
In reply to Re: Is Chronic Fatigue Syndrome real?, posted by notfred on March 4, 2007, at 14:18:02
If I remember correctly Vivien Eliot, wife of TS, got a diagnosis of 'moral insanity', not (as far as I am aware) from her eccentric and disruptive behaviour (later), but from the fact that she had really irregular menstrual bleeding.
She was treated with ether and opiates.
It did sound a bit odd.
Posted by Squiggles on March 4, 2007, at 18:11:57
In reply to Re: Is Chronic Fatigue Syndrome real? » notfred, posted by Declan on March 4, 2007, at 17:26:04
> If I remember correctly Vivien Eliot, wife of TS, got a diagnosis of 'moral insanity', not (as far as I am aware) from her eccentric and disruptive behaviour (later), but from the fact that she had really irregular menstrual bleeding.
>
> She was treated with ether and opiates.
>
>
> It did sound a bit odd.
Dang, I was born too late. :-)Squiggles
Posted by croy32 on March 4, 2007, at 18:12:03
In reply to Re: Is Chronic Fatigue Syndrome real?, posted by Phillipa on March 4, 2007, at 10:36:58
Hi squiggles.
I think the medical consensus now is that CFS is real. It's also called Chronic Fatigue Immune Deficiency Syndrome, or CFIDS. There are now tests (testing for antibodies, testing sedimentation rate) that as a group can point to CFIDS.
I think there probably are still people who refer to it as the Yuppie Flu. That's pretty harmful to a lot of genuinely suffering people.
Affecting the brain: "brain fog" or confusion, memory problems, inability to concentrate, etc. is a major symptom people report. When I was tested for CFS the doc said it affects the limbic system. I'm sorry I don't know exactly what that means, but it seems to have neurological implications.
I was told by my doctor that CFS, hypothyroid, and Depression are very closely linked and overlapping in women. So it does seem like there is an endocrine componenet, as you suggested. Lots of doctors think that CFS and Depression are basically the same disease with CFS being having more intense physical symptoms and Depression having more intense mood symptoms.
But I'm not the best person to tell you about this! Here's the info at the Center for Disease Control:
Posted by Squiggles on March 4, 2007, at 18:30:45
In reply to Re: Is Chronic Fatigue Syndrome real?, posted by croy32 on March 4, 2007, at 18:12:03
Wow! That there are tests for it, is
impressive. Thanks. I'll study it.Squiggles
Posted by Declan on March 5, 2007, at 1:23:19
In reply to Re: Is Chronic Fatigue Syndrome real?, posted by Squiggles on March 4, 2007, at 18:11:57
I know exactly how you feel. Advances of medical science indeed. Talk about the whig view of history.
But ether? Maybe it's OK? They used to have ether parties, maybe just my sort of party with everyone out cold, or just about.
Posted by Squiggles on March 5, 2007, at 7:23:31
In reply to Re: Is Chronic Fatigue Syndrome real?, posted by croy32 on March 4, 2007, at 18:12:03
I was reading that the diagnosis for
CFS is "exclusive" (and there are many
tests of exclusion). IMHO, they should
have stuck to the nomenclature: Myelitic
encephalopathy (somehting like that, ME);
The name "chronic fatigue syndrome" makes
it sound like you're just tired all the time.Squiggles
Posted by Squiggles on March 5, 2007, at 10:21:36
In reply to Re: Is Chronic Fatigue Syndrome real?, posted by Squiggles on March 5, 2007, at 7:23:31
http://www.mja.com.au/public/guides/cfs/cfs2.html
(CLINICAL PRACTICAL GUIDELINES) - how to diagnose CFS:
exerpt:
2.1: What can a person with "fatigue" or "tiredness" be describing?
In most instances the symptoms of chronic fatigue syndrome can be distinguished from the closely related phenomena of somnolence, muscle weakness, neuromuscular fatigability, depressed mood or anhedonia.
Person describes:
Interpretation
*
Reduced muscle power at rest
*Difficulty walking or lifting weights
→ Muscle weakness (eg, myopathy; polymyositis)
*
Loss of muscle power over time with activity
→ Neuromuscular fatigability (eg, myasthenia gravis)
*
Physical and mental fatigue at rest
→ Central fatigue (eg, multiple sclerosis)
*
Lack of motivation to commence tasks
*Lack of pleasure from tasks undertaken
→ Anhedonia (eg, major depression)
*
Daytime sleepiness
*Short sleep latency
→ Somnolence (eg, sleep apnoea, narcolepsy)
*
Breathlessness at rest or on exercise
→ Dyspnoea → Weakness (eg, airflow limitation; cardiac failure; anaemia)
*
Muscle pain, joint pain
*Fever, malaise
→ Inflammation (eg, systemic lupus erythematosus) → Infection (eg, influenza)
How should fatigue be evaluated?CFS is distinguished from similar fatigue-related illnesses not only by carefully characterising the fatigue itself, but also by evaluating associated symptoms and signs. People with CFS also report:
*
unrefreshing sleep;
*myalgia:
*arthralgia;
*loss of concentration;
*memory impairment;
*irritable mood, and
*postexertional malaise (may be delayed).
--------------------------------------------------
CATATONIA (with no reference to Dr. Torrey's cats :-))Has anyone looked at this old motor retardation/depression state?
Sometimes old medical observations may deceive us. Once the
word has disappeared, the idea has disappeared.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catatonia
Squiggles
Posted by Declan on March 5, 2007, at 14:04:58
In reply to Catatonia, posted by Squiggles on March 5, 2007, at 10:21:36
In the early 70s catatonia was something that had happened very recently.
Posted by Squiggles on March 5, 2007, at 14:15:49
In reply to Waxy flexibility, posted by Declan on March 5, 2007, at 14:04:58
> In the early 70s catatonia was something that had happened very recently.
What do you mean by "recently"? I bet medications are a big cause recently, in comparison to organic brain diseases, and emotional shock that they saw before (just as examples).
Take a look at this site. The condition has more
causes that CFS; infact there is some debate (Max Fink) that it may be a sub-type of Catatonia.http://www.emedicine.com/neuro/topic708.htm
Squiggles
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 5, 2007, at 15:04:36
In reply to Re: Waxy flexibility, posted by Squiggles on March 5, 2007, at 14:15:49
> Take a look at this site. The condition has more
> causes that CFS; infact there is some debate (Max Fink) that it may be a sub-type of Catatonia.
>
> http://www.emedicine.com/neuro/topic708.htm
>
> SquigglesThe paper barely mentions Fink. Does he argue somewhere that CFS?? is a subtype of catatonia? (Your semantics are unclear.) Not in this paper, he doesn't. Nor can I imagine anyone making a cogent argument for such a comparison.
Max Fink never met a patient he wouldn't administer ECT upon. He ECTs Parkinson's and Alzheimer's patients, and autistic children.
And what on Earth has any of this to do with CFS/ME?
Lar
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