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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by johnnyj on January 3, 2007, at 20:56:07
In reply to Very Good Article, posted by willyee on January 1, 2007, at 8:19:32
So exercise is not that good for depression now? It may make it worse? Great, just great.
Posted by laima on January 3, 2007, at 20:56:08
In reply to Re: Very Good Article » willyee, posted by johnnyj on January 2, 2007, at 9:19:00
There have been people claiming this for a long time- and they're only talking about EXTREME excercise. Overwhelmingly people continue to believe excercise is good for mood, and there have been scads of testimonials on babble.
> So exercise is not that good for depression now? It may make it worse? Great, just great.
Posted by Quintal on January 3, 2007, at 20:56:08
In reply to Re: Very Good Article » willyee, posted by johnnyj on January 2, 2007, at 9:19:00
I've thought this for a long time. Exercise only makes me feel worse - more depressed and exhausted than before I started and it ruins my whole day, but I have to do it anyway because I have dogs. The information on recovery times being longer in depressed individuals makes a lot of sense to me. Exercise just isn't appropriate for every person and for people who don't respond the failure is yet another thing to feel useless and guilty over.
Q
Posted by laima on January 3, 2007, at 20:56:08
In reply to Exercise and depression » johnnyj, posted by Quintal on January 2, 2007, at 15:40:48
Quintal, would it make sense for you to excercise less or at a different time in the day, or does it just not work for you? It always makes me feel so much better, and my recovery times progressively improve if I train. I'm sorry and surprised to hear how excercise affects you. I guess everyone's different.
Posted by linkadge on January 3, 2007, at 20:56:08
In reply to Re: Exercise and depression » Quintal, posted by laima on January 2, 2007, at 18:11:25
That blurb about exercise wasn't a study it was just more or less an opinion.
It does not negate the dozens of studies that show the posive effects of exercise on depression.
Exercise may not work for everbody, and that just like how any given antidepressant may not help everybody. That doesn't mean that people should just ditch this potential benifit to body and mind.Especially since depresson is often comorbid with diseases of the heart, diseases which have been proven to be reduced with regular exercise.
Most people who maintain a moderate routeen exercise program report enhanced sleep. Studies have also shown that exercise can enhance deep restoritive sleep.
Crashing from exercise is a symptom of either overexertion or undertraining. When you built up to a particuar program that one can handle you should not crash.
Studies have also shown that regular exercise acts as a *buffer* against stress. Those who exerise regularly show reduced stress hormone release in response to stressfull events.
Stress may be increased *during* exercise but it often decreases for the rest of the day. Just like how heart rate increases during exercise, but decreases overall.
An exercise plan that is appropriate should leave a person feeling depleated nor should they be crashing.
I am not saying that it will work for everbody, but if exercise is making you feel worse, you may be tackling it the wrong way.
Some people jump head into an exercise program that is too strenuous, and is bound for failure from the world go.
Just like there is a difference between healthy eating and fad dieting. Don't treat exercise like a fad diet, treat it like healthy eating.
Sorry for blithering.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on January 3, 2007, at 20:56:09
In reply to Re: Exercise and depression » Quintal, posted by laima on January 2, 2007, at 18:11:25
Exercise can simply mean taking a walk around the block. If somebody can look me in the eye and say they honestly feel better at the end of the day sitting on the couch, vs. doing *something* than I would be suprised.
Linkadge
Posted by Quintal on January 3, 2007, at 20:56:09
In reply to Re: Whoa, posted by linkadge on January 2, 2007, at 18:45:43
>That blurb about exercise wasn't a study it was just more or less an opinion.
Obviously, and a refreshing one at that for people who have found exercise consistently makes them feel worse, yet who are still encouraged (perhaps even bullied) by their doctors, friends and family into maintaining a painful level of activity on the basis of supportive studies.
>Exercise may not work for everybody, and that just like how any given antidepressant may not help everybody. That doesn't mean that people should just ditch this potential benefit to body and mind.
Where is it said that everybody should ditch exercise? I trust the basic intelligence of people posting here to keep on exercising if they find it beneficial. People who don't however, may find some comfort to know there are others with the same problem.
>Most people who maintain a moderate routine exercise program report enhanced sleep. Studies have also shown that exercise can enhance deep restorative sleep.
There are a substantial number of people who find themselves in the minority - i.e. that exercise disturbs their sleep. I am one of them and I'm grateful to the author of that article for offering a supportive explanation of why that may happen.
>Studies have also shown that regular exercise acts as a *buffer* against stress. Those who exercise regularly show reduced stress hormone release in response to stressful events
Studies, studies, studies. Well personal experience is more persuasive as we all know from our trials with medication. Studies showing 70% response rate to Prozac are of no comfort to the 30% of non-responders. Likewise with exercise.
>Stress may be increased *during* exercise but it often decreases for the rest of the day. Just like how heart rate increases during exercise, but decreases overall.
Yes, or course, in theory all of this is true and I'm sure there are many studies supporting it. Again some of us find the opposite is true for us as individuals when putting these recommendations into practise.
>An exercise plan that is appropriate should leave a person feeling depleted nor should they be crashing.
Ideally yes.
>I am not saying that it will work for everybody, but if exercise is making you feel worse, you may be tackling it the wrong way.
When I'm feeling well I find my level of physical activity increases naturally without any conscious effort on my part. When I'm feeling well moderate exercise can *then* help keep my mood bright but it has never been useful to me as a weapon to fight depression. I'm wary of exercise being over prescribed to depressed people as a self-help method as it can turn into another source of guilt and frustration. When I'm depressed I find the exertion of simply climbing the stairs leaves me feeling dizzy and exhausted.
My GP is currently experimenting in withholding antidepressants and prescribing exercise at the local gym as a trendy and progressive treatment protocol. Sounds great in theory to all the keep-fit fanatics but I think it could well be a disaster for depressed people who are already self-conscious about their appearance. The last place many of those people want to be is in a gym and I worry about the effect having gone to their doctor only to be denied medication they want and instead being told they must attend a fitness centre will have on them. My GP like most others just doesn't have the sensitivity to foresee problems like this and those studies encourage people like her - that is my main objection to the popular fad of promoting exercise for every physical and mental ill.
Obviously exercise is very effective for some people, for other it forms the backbone of their treatment protocol but it must be used wisely and sensitively otherwise it can in some circumstances cause greater harm. It was refreshing and gratifying to read of somebody offering an explanation of why exercise can make depressed people feel worse.
Q
Posted by Quintal on January 3, 2007, at 20:56:09
In reply to Re: Exercise and depression, posted by linkadge on January 2, 2007, at 18:47:46
>Exercise can simply mean taking a walk around the block. If somebody can look me in the eye and say they honestly feel better at the end of the day sitting on the couch, vs. doing *something* than I would be surprised.
Exercise for me is walking my dogs on the fell or in the forest and yes, I'm looking you in the virtual eye and saying that short exercise makes me feel worse when I'm depressed. Simply getting up out of bed to visit the bathroom make me feel worse if I'm very depressed.
Q
Posted by laima on January 3, 2007, at 20:56:09
In reply to Re: Exercise and depression » linkadge, posted by Quintal on January 2, 2007, at 19:48:20
Quintal, I'm amazed. I was never "athletic"- far from it- yet to skip excercise feels as uncomfortable to me as skipping food, sleep, or toothbrushing. I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but have you ruled out any physical problem, like a heart thing or whatnot? And I saw that the university near my house is testing people's "lactic acid"- something about abnormal lactic acid levels cause a body to fatigue too easily. (Don't know anything about it.) I agree about walking outside, especially in nature- it's the best.
Posted by Quintal on January 3, 2007, at 20:56:09
In reply to Re: Exercise and depression » Quintal, posted by laima on January 2, 2007, at 21:23:16
>Quintal, I'm amazed. I was never "athletic"- far from it- yet to skip exercise feels as uncomfortable to me as skipping food, sleep, or toothbrushing.
Probably because it's become a habit to you - part of your routine? Maybe it's also psychologically comforting to you? I often skip food, sleep and toothbrushing when I'm hypomanic or depressed.
>I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but have you ruled out any physical problem, like a heart thing or whatnot?
I had an ECG each time I went into hospital and they all came back normal. I did wonder about mitral valve prolapse as I often had chest pain and shortness of breath when exercising as a child. I still get chest pain now. I also read MVP is associated with chronic anxiety and panic as well as low exercise tolerance. There's little I can do to find out if I do have it since my GP will be unwilling to listen to anything I have to say. There's no cure in any case.
> And I saw that the university near my house is testing people's "lactic acid"- something about abnormal lactic acid levels cause a body to fatigue too easily. (Don't know anything about it.)
I'll look into it. Thank you for the info.
>I agree about walking outside, especially in nature- it's the best.
Yes, I don't think I could stand having to visit a gym every time I wanted to exercise. I'm lucky to live in the country I suppose.
Q
Posted by laima on January 3, 2007, at 20:56:09
In reply to Re: Exercise and depression » laima, posted by Quintal on January 3, 2007, at 0:02:38
I think a lot of people don't like gyms- that makes sense. Nothing beats walking or hiking in nature as far as I'm concerned. I think excercise is physiologically comforting to me- it dissapates nervous tension and agitation for me. Afterwards I feel calmer, physically tired but in a satisfying way. Mentally clearer and typically sharper.
Posted by willyee on January 3, 2007, at 20:56:09
In reply to Very Good Article, posted by willyee on January 1, 2007, at 8:19:32
All of you are right i believe.Ecersise is in no way bad for you.
HOWEVER,it does let out a rush of adrenaline,So there are A LOT of low impact ones to use.Here are some off the top of my noggin.
--- A gym with a swimming pool,nice relaxing.
--- Active activity u enjoy,i.e roller skating,bike riding,excelent.
---- Bike at the gym,usualy have a tv popped up to watch,and settings u control to pace urself.
---- Walking,especialy with someone,conversation totaly distracts the idea factor.
Some i wouldent recomend for anxiety.
--- Jogging
--- Treadmills
--- Weight lifting,or calestics.
I think this is again one u listen to ur body.If u feel worse,dont do it.For me jogging really makes me feel horrid.
Also i lift weihts,and heavy heavy too,i circle my meds around this because it ruins them.
I also take long breaks,which is not recomended by the CODE OF LIFTERS,but its what i have to do,i breathe,do something else,and will do a set when i feel at ease,opposed to when i used to time sets and pound them out,sometimes u have to give up things for others.
But i dont think the article implied sitting on ur behind would be better,this will not only make u pyhsicaly worse,but also make u feel more guilty about not looking in shape.Remember lots of articles,studies,etc,and how many times have we all been burned following them.
Best thing i think is to read things with a grain of salt,and always ALWAYS listen to ur body,it will try and tell u how it feels.
Posted by bulldog2 on January 3, 2007, at 20:56:09
In reply to Re: Very Good Article, posted by willyee on January 3, 2007, at 9:05:25
I have also found that as I feel better that I have a greater ability to exercise.Last year I made a new year's resolution to join a gym to get myself out of a depression. Well I was pumping iron and doing an hour on the treadmill and within a week I was feeling worse mentally.I stayed with it for about seven months and I never felt better after a workout. I guess i think of my depressions as my tank is almost empty and when I exercise vigourously the tank empties out. Now I do believe to try and at least get moving and do something every day when depressed that is within one's ability. I have found I feel depressed and anxious in the morning and as soon as I force myself out of bed and start doing some simple tasks that I start to feel better.So I guess we have to listen to our body's. So maybe the key is doing a level of exercise that is in line with your level of depression (actually conditioning to an extent).
Posted by linkadge on January 3, 2007, at 20:56:09
In reply to Re: Exercise and depression » linkadge, posted by Quintal on January 2, 2007, at 19:44:02
>a painful level of activity on the basis of >supportive studies
The studies I am thinking about recomend no such "painful level" of activity.
As a side question, do you have a physical ailment that makes exercise difficutlt? Such cases are totally different.
Again, I am not trying to make blanket statements, and exercise may not be for everbody. If I were a doctor, all I would ask of my patient is that they give it a fair trail. It seems that you have already done that. I don't think anyone could ask more.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on January 3, 2007, at 20:56:10
In reply to Re: Exercise and depression » linkadge, posted by Quintal on January 2, 2007, at 19:48:20
I understand that getting out and doing it may make you feel worse at the time.
But the question I am asking is whether you would feel better about yourself at the end of the day if you made absolutely zero attempt at any physical activity?
(as a side note, if taking a 5 minaute walk around the block gives you insomnia, then there may be something else seriosly wrong)
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on January 3, 2007, at 20:56:10
In reply to Re: Exercise and depression » laima, posted by Quintal on January 3, 2007, at 0:02:38
>I often skip food, sleep and toothbrushing when >I'm hypomanic or depressed.
Starting brushing and flossing again after a long period of abstainance can be painful, but that does mean it still isn't going to help.
Linkadge
Posted by Quintal on January 3, 2007, at 20:56:10
In reply to Re: Exercise and depression, posted by linkadge on January 3, 2007, at 13:53:20
>As a side question, do you have a physical ailment that makes exercise difficutlt? Such cases are totally different.
Not that I know of, nothing that has been diagnosed in any case.
>But the question I am asking is whether you would feel better about yourself at the end of the day if you made absolutely zero attempt at any physical activity?
Yes, if I set goals for myself I do usually feel better emotionally by the end of the day if I've completed them. The problem is that it takes me all day and usually well into the night to calm down again. If I miss sleep there's a risk I will become manic again. A vicious circle.
>(as a side note, if taking a 5 minute walk around the block gives you insomnia, then there may be something else seriously wrong)
Probably but there's little chance of it being diagnosed unless I actually collapse and have to be taken to hospital. Even then the odds are dismal.
>Starting brushing and flossing again after a long period of abstinence can be painful, but that does mean it still isn't going to help.
It seems being hypersensitive has something to do with all these problems. I use an electronic toothbrush but I find the sensation overwhelming at times along with the chemical taste of toothpaste. I often forget meal times and tooth brushing when I'm manic and don't have the energy to get out of bed when I'm depressed but I've never gone longer than a day without cleaning my teeth.
Q
Posted by naughtypuppy on January 3, 2007, at 20:56:10
In reply to Re: Exercise and depression, posted by linkadge on January 3, 2007, at 13:53:20
The only evidence that I can give is my own experience. While going out for a brisk walk in a quite atmosphere makes me feel better, strenous exersise like shoveling a foot of snow causes my irratibily, ruminations to go through the roof. Adrenaline related, I don't know but it's possible.
Posted by laima on January 3, 2007, at 20:56:10
In reply to Re: Very Good Article, posted by willyee on January 3, 2007, at 9:05:25
I gotta say, a long, hard bike ride outside on a trail clears my head like nothing else though! I have a friend who swears by running for the same purpose.> Some i wouldent recomend for anxiety.
>
> --- Jogging
>
> --- Treadmills
>
> --- Weight lifting,or calestics.
Posted by Phillipa on January 3, 2007, at 20:56:10
In reply to Re: Exercise and depression » Quintal, posted by linkadge on January 3, 2007, at 13:48:56
Link I agree as when I was younger I jogged five miles every day taught Aerobic Dance the same day, trained my instuctors and didn't take any meds. I got my energy from excercise and it totally eliminated anxiety and depression for me. Now that I'm older I have just have to ride at least 7.5miles up and down hills daily on my bike. At the end I feel much better. Feel like I've accomplished something and find people to stop and chat with. And I even ride in the rain if it's not too cold. Some days it's l4 miles. It always helps to relax me. Love Phillipa
Posted by MM on May 7, 2007, at 2:37:43
In reply to Re: Exercise and depression » linkadge, posted by Phillipa on January 3, 2007, at 16:57:07
I often get the same bad reactions to exercise. Walking at a slow-medium pace sometimes seems to help my body (and sometimes not) but it often makes my mood/anxiety worse. I used to be very fit, athletic...I think it has something to do with adrenal/cortisol crisis (I've read that article before, it probably mentions this) but my GP isn't going to take it seriously. I find vitamin C in high doses can be helpful. Yoga can be okay too. But listen to your body, for sure. I really just wanted to say "me too!"
This is the end of the thread.
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