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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 36 to 60 of 83. Go back in thread:
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 28, 2009, at 8:36:20
In reply to Drink the water. » Lou Pilder, posted by SLS on December 28, 2009, at 8:12:40
> > could or could not be deemed to be unfaithful to that God if they take mind-altering drugs
>
> ...or are they brain-correcting and mind-correcting drugs?
>
> That is the goal, I believe. To the extent to which there has been some success in the use of psychotropic drugs to treat mental illness and improve quality of life, I believe the goal is justified.
>
> Would one be unfaithful to God to drink the water that the works of man has been brought to our spigots?
>
Scott,
You wrote,[...would it be unfaithful to God to drink the water (from a tap)...?]
Since the discussion is about as to if taking mind-altering chemicals into one's system causes one to be unfaithful to God or not,I would need to know which God is in question as to being unfaithful or not, for drinking that water, and from which tap, as if you are or are not wanting to mean that that water has mind-altering chemicals in it, before I could answer your question. Granted, water from different taps could have chemicals in it, but are those chemicals mind-altering chemicals or not?
Lou
>
> - Scott
Posted by SLS on December 28, 2009, at 12:29:04
In reply to Lou's reply-aichtuoh » SLS, posted by Lou Pilder on December 28, 2009, at 8:36:20
> Since the discussion is about as to if taking mind-altering chemicals into one's system causes one to be unfaithful to God or not,I would need to know which God is in question as to being unfaithful or not
I speak of your god.
Would employing lithium to control one's bipolar illness be an unfaithful act toward your god? If so, would you explain why or produce writings that describe the proscriptions of this behavior?
Thanks.
- Scott
Posted by Sigismund on December 28, 2009, at 16:14:20
In reply to Lou's reply-wychgdSteveEarle? » Sigismund, posted by Lou Pilder on December 28, 2009, at 7:26:38
>In what you wrote above, as to if it is a reply to my invitation to identify which God, is there a particular God that you could identify from what you posted there?
That one in whose image we are made?
>If so, then the aspect as to if one that gives service and worship to that god could or could not be deemed to be unfaithful to that God if they take mind-altering drugs and to define what a medicine is or is not according to that God could give rise to a discussion from my view.The spirit of the regulations seems to be that intoxicants are not OK but medicines are. This does not help us much, except to imply that if a medication is unpleasant enough or has enough side effects it might be OK.
What if my depression is controlled by opium (bad intoxicant) as against Parnate (good medicine)?
(How keen am I to worship a God who would make us in his image, and is this the same thing as 'we are the greatest'?) So, OK, you need a reason to take it. Thus, if you are in (physical) pain, opium is OK but not if you are in mental pain, though before the new rules (1968 here) it might have been more acceptable.Can you make any better sense of it?
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 28, 2009, at 16:56:39
In reply to Yours. » Lou Pilder, posted by SLS on December 28, 2009, at 12:29:04
> > Since the discussion is about as to if taking mind-altering chemicals into one's system causes one to be unfaithful to God or not,I would need to know which God is in question as to being unfaithful or not
>
> I speak of your god.
>
> Would employing lithium to control one's bipolar illness be an unfaithful act toward your god? If so, would you explain why or produce writings that describe the proscriptions of this behavior?
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> - Scott
>
Scott,
You wrote,[...your god (the god that you give service an worship to)...writings...].
This discussion is about as to if taking mind-altering chemicals into your system could cause one to be unfaithful to their god and as to what is or is not a medicine.
Now the God that I give service and worship to is the God that the Jews give service and worship to. That God has given to the books that they consider to be truth that give infomation about that God and commandments to follow.
The first statement in the book called Genesis reads;
[...In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth...]
Then the book continues;
[...And God said, Let us make man in our image...]
Now with those two statements in mind, there is a God that is a person that made the heaven and the earth. Then we go on...
Lou
Posted by SLS on December 28, 2009, at 17:19:49
In reply to Lou's reply-eksnahilow » SLS, posted by Lou Pilder on December 28, 2009, at 16:56:39
Now that you have identified your god, perhaps you can answer my questions. To refresh your memory:
Would employing lithium to control one's bipolar illness be an unfaithful act toward your god? If so, would you explain why or produce writings that describe the proscriptions of this behavior?
- Scott
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 28, 2009, at 17:27:07
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-wychgdSteveEarle?, posted by Sigismund on December 28, 2009, at 16:14:20
> >In what you wrote above, as to if it is a reply to my invitation to identify which God, is there a particular God that you could identify from what you posted there?
>
> That one in whose image we are made?
>
>
> >If so, then the aspect as to if one that gives service and worship to that god could or could not be deemed to be unfaithful to that God if they take mind-altering drugs and to define what a medicine is or is not according to that God could give rise to a discussion from my view.
>
> The spirit of the regulations seems to be that intoxicants are not OK but medicines are. This does not help us much, except to imply that if a medication is unpleasant enough or has enough side effects it might be OK.
>
> What if my depression is controlled by opium (bad intoxicant) as against Parnate (good medicine)?
> (How keen am I to worship a God who would make us in his image, and is this the same thing as 'we are the greatest'?) So, OK, you need a reason to take it. Thus, if you are in (physical) pain, opium is OK but not if you are in mental pain, though before the new rules (1968 here) it might have been more acceptable.
>
> Can you make any better sense of it?Sigismund,
You wrote,[...the one whose image we are made...intoxicants are not OK but medicines are...opium...]
The question as to the innitiator here is would someone be unfaithful to God if they took medication. The question then is what is a medication and you are bringing that out.
The discussion is about mental health medications that are mind-altering.
Now there is an example in the scriptures concerning intoxicants that you have posted, for the scriptures that the Jews use condemn drunkeness. more...
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 28, 2009, at 17:49:47
In reply to Yours. » Lou Pilder, posted by SLS on December 28, 2009, at 17:19:49
> Now that you have identified your god, perhaps you can answer my questions. To refresh your memory:
>
> Would employing lithium to control one's bipolar illness be an unfaithful act toward your god? If so, would you explain why or produce writings that describe the proscriptions of this behavior?
>
>
> - ScottScott,
You wrote,[...would employing Li..be an unfaithful act...why?...produce writings...]
We have not established yet here as to what a medicine is or is not according to the God that I give service and worship to as to then if takingLi is being unfaithful to that God.
First, before we go into this, there is a post by Mr. Hsiung threatening me with expulsion from this community if I was to post what has been revealed to me that is connected to this discussion. You see, a commandment to me that xxxx has a part in my answer to you. Interestingly, another poster brought this out about him/her using pills as to if their God thought that yyy. You may have some remeberance to that post that I did not comment on.
But I could go on with the other aspects that involve the taking of or not taking of mind-altering drugs.
Lou
Posted by SLS on December 28, 2009, at 17:52:10
In reply to Lou's reply-mgndavd » Sigismund, posted by Lou Pilder on December 28, 2009, at 17:27:07
> The discussion is about mental health medications that are mind-altering.
How do you define mind-altering? Can you describe the features of an altered state?
What are some examples of mental health medications that are mind-altering?
- Scott
Posted by SLS on December 28, 2009, at 18:01:03
In reply to Lou's reply-chlhvnho » SLS, posted by Lou Pilder on December 28, 2009, at 17:49:47
> > Now that you have identified your god, perhaps you can answer my questions. To refresh your memory:
> >
> > Would employing lithium to control one's bipolar illness be an unfaithful act toward your god? If so, would you explain why or produce writings that describe the proscriptions of this behavior?> We have not established yet here as to what a medicine is or is not according to the God that I give service and worship to
I didn't qualify lithium as being anything but lithium. I feel that you can answer my question without further qualification. Of course, you don't have to answer any of the questions I ask. However, your failure to answer them only serves to reinforce my impression that, for me, continuing a discourse with you here is undesirable.
- Scott
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 28, 2009, at 18:08:09
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-mgndavd » Lou Pilder, posted by SLS on December 28, 2009, at 17:52:10
> > The discussion is about mental health medications that are mind-altering.
>
> How do you define mind-altering? Can you describe the features of an altered state?
>
> What are some examples of mental health medications that are mind-altering?
>
>
> - Scott
Scott,
You wrote,[...what are ..examples of..medications that are mind-altering?...]
If you look at the PDR and see that the drug could cause;
A. hallucinations
B. Suicide thoughts
C. depression
D. mania
E. delusions
F. euphoria
G. other related mind-altering states
Lou
Posted by SLS on December 28, 2009, at 19:03:46
In reply to Lou's reply-eighthrst » SLS, posted by Lou Pilder on December 28, 2009, at 18:08:09
> If you look at the PDR and see that the drug could cause;
Which drug?
> A. hallucinations
> B. Suicide thoughts
> C. depression
> D. mania
> E. delusions
> F. euphoria
> G. other related mind-altering statesThese are some of the possible side effects that can occur with the use of many psychiatric and non-psychiatric drugs. They are undesirable, and often indicate that the offending drug be discontinued and replaced with another treatment. What you fail to mention is that these things usually occur in a minority of people. It happens more often that a psychiatric patient glean benefit from drug treatment without the occurrence of the side effects that you have listed here. With further refinement, medical science will produce treatments with greatly reduced liability of producing undesirable psychiatric side effects.
Unfaithful? How do you know?
Is it unfaithful to your god that one take lithium?
If you could produce evidence as to the proscription by your god the use of lithium, I could then respond accordingly.
Thanks.
- Scott
Posted by Sigismund on December 28, 2009, at 19:19:52
In reply to Lou's reply-mgndavd » Sigismund, posted by Lou Pilder on December 28, 2009, at 17:27:07
>The question as to the innitiator here is would someone be unfaithful to God if they took medication.
Well, I would not see it like that, but what if the medication is an intoxicant (prohibited under the Eightfold Path in Buddhism)?
I can't for the life of me see why taking benzos for an anxiety condition is much different to taking opium for one, except from the crowd management angle.
Posted by Sigismund on December 28, 2009, at 19:23:50
In reply to Unfaithfullness and Side Effects. » Lou Pilder, posted by SLS on December 28, 2009, at 19:03:46
I can't imagine God prohibiting lithium.
Why not?
Lack of abuse potential?
So God doesn't mind us taking mind altering drugs as long as there is no abuse potential?
And if not that, what?
Posted by Sigismund on December 28, 2009, at 19:28:32
In reply to Re: Unfaithfullness and Side Effects. » SLS, posted by Sigismund on December 28, 2009, at 19:23:50
This reminds me of that wretched organic psychiatrist (whose name I forget) who said of Jesus that if modern psychiatry had got hold of him he would have gone back to carpentry.
Posted by Sigismund on December 28, 2009, at 19:33:32
In reply to Re: Unfaithfullness and Side Effects., posted by Sigismund on December 28, 2009, at 19:28:32
"...Jesus Christ might simply have returned to his carpentry following the use of modern [psychiatric] treatments." - William Sargant
(but perhaps not Sargant's).
Posted by SLS on December 29, 2009, at 7:01:11
In reply to Re: Unfaithfullness and Side Effects. » SLS, posted by Sigismund on December 28, 2009, at 19:23:50
> I can't imagine God prohibiting lithium.
>
> Why not?
>
> Lack of abuse potential?I don't know about God, but I think that because a drug has the potential of abuse is not sufficient reason to prohibit its use therapeutically. However, I think it is important to demonstrate that such a drug is efficacious in treating illness and to control its availability as is done with other prescription drugs. I guess it depends on how one uses an object that defines its appropriateness. Using a ram's horn to produce and effect is not in itself a sin. For example, one can blow through it and produce a noise that communicates meaning to others. However, one can also use it as a blunt instrument weapon to kill. I'm sure God knew this in advance of His allowing people to use it as a tool.
- Scott
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 29, 2009, at 10:02:53
In reply to Unfaithfullness and Side Effects. » Lou Pilder, posted by SLS on December 28, 2009, at 19:03:46
> > If you look at the PDR and see that the drug could cause;
>
> Which drug?
>
> > A. hallucinations
> > B. Suicide thoughts
> > C. depression
> > D. mania
> > E. delusions
> > F. euphoria
> > G. other related mind-altering states
>
> These are some of the possible side effects that can occur with the use of many psychiatric and non-psychiatric drugs. They are undesirable, and often indicate that the offending drug be discontinued and replaced with another treatment. What you fail to mention is that these things usually occur in a minority of people. It happens more often that a psychiatric patient glean benefit from drug treatment without the occurrence of the side effects that you have listed here. With further refinement, medical science will produce treatments with greatly reduced liability of producing undesirable psychiatric side effects.
>
> Unfaithful? How do you know?
>
> Is it unfaithful to your god that one take lithium?
>
> If you could produce evidence as to the proscription by your god the use of lithium, I could then respond accordingly.
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> - ScottScott,
You wrote,[...is it unfaithful..(your God)...that one take Li?...]
This discussion involves the innitial question by another member as to if taking medicine is being {unfaithful} to God. The overiding aspect from my view is as to which God one is referring to and what is or is not a medicine. Since the original poster included that they were taking medicine for mental-health issues, the subject then became about mind-altering drugs.
The meaning of {unfaithful} from my perspective in regards to being unfaithful to the God that I give service and worship to, is about that that God is a {personal} God. In the book called Genesis the first people heard the voice of the God that created them. They had converstaion with that God. And they had a knowlege of good and evil.
Now the word faithful has meanings for this discussion as the member wanted to know if taking medicine is being faithful to God. Now the God that I give service and worship to has an agreement with the people that worship that God in the form of commandments and duty. There is also a relationship that that God wants to have with those. There is affection because that God is a person that has created man in the image of God. There is thinking and decisions to be made. There is life and death. There is a promise of life everafter and the conditions for such.
I would like to look at a verse from the scriptures that the Jews use that they consider to be from that God as truth. The verse is in the 26th chapter of the book called Isaiah, the 3erd verse that reads,
[...He will keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on Him, because he trusts in Him...]
You see, there is an agreement, a contract, a covenant that the Jews have with that God. It is about the mind. And if the mind is {stayed on Him}, one will be in perfect peace says the scripture.
Does your drug take your mind away from that God if you give service and worship to that God that I am referring to here. Is {faithfulness} in respect to this discussion now taking on more of a meaning?
Lou
Posted by SLS on December 29, 2009, at 10:38:11
In reply to Lou's reply-schlhknoh » SLS, posted by Lou Pilder on December 29, 2009, at 10:02:53
> [...He will keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on Him, because he trusts in Him...]
I see. Unfortunately, the more severe mental illnesses impair an affected individual's capacity to understand and act upon such ideations. My ability to focus my mind on matters spiritual varies with the changing severity of my depression. I propose that the successful pharmacological treatment of an individual with depression will allow him to commune more closely with God and therefore enable him to better seek peace.
Gotta go for now...
- Scott
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 29, 2009, at 16:14:59
In reply to Impaired minds and impaired spirituality. » Lou Pilder, posted by SLS on December 29, 2009, at 10:38:11
> > [...He will keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on Him, because he trusts in Him...]
>
> I see. Unfortunately, the more severe mental illnesses impair an affected individual's capacity to understand and act upon such ideations. My ability to focus my mind on matters spiritual varies with the changing severity of my depression. I propose that the successful pharmacological treatment of an individual with depression will allow him to commune more closely with God and therefore enable him to better seek peace.
>
> Gotta go for now...
>
>
> - ScottScott,
You wrote,[...the more severe mental illnesses impair an affected individual's capacity to understand and act upon such ideations...]
I am unsure as to what you are wanting to mean. If you could post answers to the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
A. What are the criteria that designates a {more severe} mental illness from just a mental illness?
B. Could you post here an example of a {more severe} mental illness?
C. Could you post here an example of a mental illness that is not in the catagory of a {more severe} mental illnes?
D. Are you stating the above statement by you as a fact or an opinion?
E. If it is being stated as a fact, could you cite here a link to an article from an accepted source that collaborates that it is a fact?
F. Are you aquainted with any scripture that the Jews use as truth to them, that substantiates what you wrote here? If so, could you post here the citation of the book and chapter and verse?
G. In,[...He will keep him in perfect peace whose mind is stayed on Him because he trusts in Him...], do you know of any scripture(s) that state reasons that cause people to not be able to keep their mind on Him?
Lou
Posted by Sigismund on December 29, 2009, at 16:32:17
In reply to Lou's reply-wksvthephlesch » SLS, posted by Lou Pilder on December 29, 2009, at 16:14:59
This is it....when is it an illness and when is it not?
(I don't think anxiety is an illness, for example....well, not the kind of anxiety I was feeling.)
Or maybe you could say that not all illnesses are best treated with medicine.>A. What are the criteria that designates a {more severe} mental illness from just a mental illness?
>B. Could you post here an example of a {more severe} mental illness?
>C. Could you post here an example of a mental illness that is not in the catagory of a {more severe} mental illnes?
Posted by SLS on December 29, 2009, at 17:11:29
In reply to Lou's reply-wksvthephlesch » SLS, posted by Lou Pilder on December 29, 2009, at 16:14:59
> > Unfortunately, the more severe mental illnesses impair...
> A. What are the criteria that designates a {more severe} mental illness from just a mental illness?
Revision:
Unfortunately, the more severe presentations of mental illness impair...
>B. Could you post here an example of a {more severe} mental illness?
Cyclothymia -> Bipolar Disorder
- Scott
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 29, 2009, at 20:18:22
In reply to A Necessary Revision?, posted by SLS on December 29, 2009, at 17:11:29
> > > Unfortunately, the more severe mental illnesses impair...
>
> > A. What are the criteria that designates a {more severe} mental illness from just a mental illness?
>
> Revision:
>
> Unfortunately, the more severe presentations of mental illness impair...
>
> >B. Could you post here an example of a {more severe} mental illness?
>
> Cyclothymia -> Bipolar Disorder
>
>
> - Scott
>
> Scott,
You wrote,[...Bipolar Disorder..]
Here is a link that gives famous people that had or has Bipolar Disorder. Let's see what we know about them in relation to some of your statements here...
Loi
http://www.mental-health-today.com/bp/famous_people.htm
Posted by SLS on December 29, 2009, at 21:19:55
In reply to Lou's reply-phaieghmuss » SLS, posted by Lou Pilder on December 29, 2009, at 20:18:22
> > > > Unfortunately, the more severe mental illnesses impair...
> >
> > > A. What are the criteria that designates a {more severe} mental illness from just a mental illness?
> >
> > Revision:
> >
> > Unfortunately, the more severe presentations of mental illness impair...
> >
> > >B. Could you post here an example of a {more severe} mental illness?
> >
> > Cyclothymia -> Bipolar Disorder
> >
> >
> > - Scott
> >
> > Scott,
> You wrote,[...Bipolar Disorder..]
> Here is a link that gives famous people that had or has Bipolar Disorder. Let's see what we know about them in relation to some of your statements here...
> Loi
> http://www.mental-health-today.com/bp/famous_people.htm
I look forward to reading your thesis and a synopsis of why this list becomes relevant to the question posed in the first post along this thread. It might be interesting for you to consider in your reply whether or not all cases of mental illness manifest equally in degree and disability.
- Scott
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 30, 2009, at 10:41:49
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-wksvthephlesch, posted by Sigismund on December 29, 2009, at 16:32:17
> This is it....when is it an illness and when is it not?
> (I don't think anxiety is an illness, for example....well, not the kind of anxiety I was feeling.)
> Or maybe you could say that not all illnesses are best treated with medicine.
>
> >A. What are the criteria that designates a {more severe} mental illness from just a mental illness?
> >B. Could you post here an example of a {more severe} mental illness?
> >C. Could you post here an example of a mental illness that is not in the catagory of a {more severe} mental illnes?Sigusmund,
You wrote,[...not all illnesses are best treated with medicine...]
I am unsure as to what you are wanting to mean. If you could post answers to the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
A. What are the criteria that you use to determine if something is an illness or not an illness?
B. What are the criteria that you use to determine if something is or is not a medicine?
C. What are then the illnesses that you think are best treated with what you define as a medicine? Which then are not best treated with what you define as a medicine?
Lou
Posted by Sigismund on December 30, 2009, at 18:06:52
In reply to Lou's reply-wadizamead? » Sigismund, posted by Lou Pilder on December 30, 2009, at 10:41:49
Lou, I don't know about criteria but I shall try to say something sensible.
Since we can accept that the best treatment for some conditions is benign neglect or some non-medicinal treatment, there is no need for me to say what an illness is. Let's take fear. The solution for fear is mastery if possible. If the fear is so disabling that mastery is impossible, then medication is indicated. Since our desires are endless, it is of no significance that we do not feel the way we wish to feel.
B is the easiest. Medicines come from plants (among other things) which are part of creation. So do some drugs. So we refine the plants and then ban them. This borders on sacrilege.
That' all that I can sensibly say at this moment. I saw "Avatar" last night. It brought to mind the genocides of North and South America and Australia. Then I read in today's paper about a book called "You Need More Money - Discovering God's Amazing Financial Plan for Your Life", by Brian Houston, which might be good for a dip into our culture.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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