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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Cass on February 19, 2009, at 14:10:20
I believe in God, but I've never had much faith. What is your faith based on? Is it based on experience, where you have had conscious contact with God and God has helped. Or is it based on religious texts? Is it based on what others have told you, or did you somehow develop faith outside of religion?
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 22, 2009, at 10:37:02
In reply to What is your faith in god based on?, posted by Cass on February 19, 2009, at 14:10:20
> I believe in God, but I've never had much faith. What is your faith based on? Is it based on experience, where you have had conscious contact with God and God has helped. Or is it based on religious texts? Is it based on what others have told you, or did you somehow develop faith outside of religion?
>
Cass,
You wrote,[...I believe in God...].
I am unsure as to what you are wanting to mean by that. If you could identify the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
A. In,[..I {believe}...], could you identify the factors that in your thinking constitutes belief?
B. In,[...I believe in {God}...], could you identify which God you are referring to?
Lou
Posted by Cass on February 22, 2009, at 17:59:38
In reply to Lou's request for identification-wchgd? » Cass, posted by Lou Pilder on February 22, 2009, at 10:37:02
In this case, when I say "believe," I mean I have an experience of God. I know that god exists because I sense its presence in my life, in others and in nature. I don't think of god in terms of a gender, "he" or "she." So when you ask which god I am referring to, I'm referring to a nameless god, simply my experience of god. I don't care to name it or feel the need to. Does this answer your questions? If so, what is your faith based on, if you have faith, that is?
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 22, 2009, at 20:28:24
In reply to Re: Lou's request for identification-wchgd? » Lou Pilder, posted by Cass on February 22, 2009, at 17:59:38
> In this case, when I say "believe," I mean I have an experience of God. I know that god exists because I sense its presence in my life, in others and in nature. I don't think of god in terms of a gender, "he" or "she." So when you ask which god I am referring to, I'm referring to a nameless god, simply my experience of god. I don't care to name it or feel the need to. Does this answer your questions? If so, what is your faith based on, if you have faith, that is?
Cass,
You wrote,[...I know God exists..I sense.. presense..in nature...].
The heavens declare the glory of God?
Lou
Posted by Cass on February 22, 2009, at 23:31:31
In reply to Lou's reply-salmneighnteighn » Cass, posted by Lou Pilder on February 22, 2009, at 20:28:24
Could you elaborate a little?
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 23, 2009, at 6:44:51
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-salmneighnteighn » Lou Pilder, posted by Cass on February 22, 2009, at 23:31:31
> Could you elaborate a little?
You posted about a presence of God in nature.
In the scriptures that the Jews use, there is a Psalm, (19,) that begins with;
[...The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament His handiwork...]
Lou
Posted by Cass on February 23, 2009, at 15:50:17
In reply to Lou's reply-tstmny » Cass, posted by Lou Pilder on February 23, 2009, at 6:44:51
Yes, it could be interpreted that nature declares the glory of god, but of course definitions of god vary. So would you like to answer my question about what your faith is based on? Or is it linked to the psalm you quoted?
Posted by Sigismund on February 24, 2009, at 14:09:54
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-tstmny » Lou Pilder, posted by Cass on February 23, 2009, at 15:50:17
There is something about consciousness so improbable and awe inspiring that I reach for an idea like God. If I actually saw what was in front of me I might collapse from the wonder of it. I don't believe in God, but I don't understand what is meant by God. If God is the first cause, then that is what people with our level of mind might need, because we need to explain things and say what caused what. Since I don't understand God I don't understand atheism and materialism either. There is a lot in Christianity I do like, but it's mainly the art and the literature (Ecclesiastes), rather than the theology.
Posted by Cass on February 25, 2009, at 20:20:51
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-tstmny, posted by Sigismund on February 24, 2009, at 14:09:54
I'm going to try to build faith through a 12-step program. People transform their lives in 12-step programs. They accept things they cannot change. They turn their problems over to their "higher power," and higher power can be defined however they want. I've seen amazing changes in people in the program.
Posted by SLS on March 22, 2009, at 9:06:16
In reply to What is your faith in god based on?, posted by Cass on February 19, 2009, at 14:10:20
> I believe in God, but I've never had much faith. What is your faith based on? Is it based on experience, where you have had conscious contact with God and God has helped. Or is it based on religious texts? Is it based on what others have told you, or did you somehow develop faith outside of religion?
What a great question!
As you say, I somehow developed my own spirituality that is at least somewhat different from any Western religion. It still revolves around the concept of there being one God, the Creator of the Universe. I decided that having faith in the exact wording of scripture did not resonate well with me. I certainly learn as much as I can about existence from scripture, but I find that modern science has yielded great beauty in witnessing the majesty of the Design of the Universe.
I think belief and faith are separate things. The only faith I have is in God and my inability to be certain about much else regarding why the Universe exists in the first place. I believe that God created the Universe. I have faith that the Universe exists. I just don't know why. I don't spend much time thinking about these things, though, as I believe they represent questions that are ultimately unanswerable. Someone once suggested to me long ago that the reason God created the Universe was that He wanted a relationship. This made sense to me. It was so important an insight that it brought me back from atheism. I found my period of true atheism to be the darkest, coldest, and most vacuous of my life. For me, God is light and warmth and fullness.
- Scott
Posted by Cass on March 22, 2009, at 16:51:14
In reply to Re: What is your faith in god based on? » Cass, posted by SLS on March 22, 2009, at 9:06:16
I respect your view about uncertainty, Scott. I believe in god because I feel like my life is a spiritual experience and I'm connected to something larger, but I've never been one to accept a set of prescribed beliefs. I can only believe what I believe, and I can't believe what I don't know to be true, although I can remain open to the possibilities. To me, faith is something deeper and it usually isn't cultivated in churches that I'm aware of. Like I mentioned, I've known people who have cultivated faith through the 12-steps where they can turn their problems over to the will of god and live with acceptance. That's the kind of faith I want to cultivate.
Posted by SLS on March 23, 2009, at 7:47:21
In reply to Re: What is your faith in god based on? » SLS, posted by Cass on March 22, 2009, at 16:51:14
> I believe in god because I feel like my life is a spiritual experience and I'm connected to something larger,
I feel this connection, too.
> but I've never been one to accept a set of prescribed beliefs.
About what in particular?
> I can only believe what I believe, and I can't believe what I don't know to be true,
Yes. How can one truly know if God exists? Perhaps this is where faith lies. I don't know.
> Like I mentioned, I've known people who have cultivated faith through the 12-steps where they can turn their problems over to the will of god and live with acceptance. That's the kind of faith I want to cultivate.
I believe in a sort of duality that reminds me of Einstein's representation of light. I believe that our destinies have been preordained while we simultaneously have free will to change our destiny. God knew where all of the pool balls would end up after the initial break. Yet, we end up where our minds help determine using the free will that He gave us. I like the 12 step mantra, the Serenity Prayer:
"God, grant me the Serenity
to accept the things I cannot change,
courage to change the things I can,
and wisdom to know the difference."I believe that we can choose to use all of what little God gives to us to work with in order to help determine our paths through life. Any endowment towards this end in a gift. I like to worship God and praise his genius and goodness by using all of the gifts he has given to me in a way that resonates with what feels right to me; a goodness that I believe is a reflection of God. I try, anyway. It is often difficult to determine in advance which changes are possible, or even desirable. It is a learning experience to be able to acquire the wisdom to know when to work for change and when to accept the unchangeable.
Your question does not yield a black-or-white answer for me. I love the complexity and depth of thought it provokes.
Thanks again, Cass.
- Scott
Posted by rayww on June 1, 2009, at 22:21:15
In reply to What is your faith in god based on?, posted by Cass on February 19, 2009, at 14:10:20
> I believe in God, but I've never had much faith. What is your faith based on? Is it based on experience, where you have had conscious contact with God and God has helped. Or is it based on religious texts? Is it based on what others have told you, or did you somehow develop faith outside of religion?
>I see not much has happened here since I left, but this is a very good question you have asked. You say you believe in God, but you've never had much faith. Belief in God IS faith, unless you have seen him in person. Faith in God comes through the Holy Spirit, and God said it is a stronger, more powerful witness than seeing is. I have experienced that spiritual witness, testifying that God exists, and that He lives. In fact, if I saw Him face to face I wouldn't know any more surely than I know now that He exists.
Posted by Cass on June 1, 2009, at 22:37:35
In reply to Re: What is your faith in god based on?, posted by rayww on June 1, 2009, at 22:21:15
Thanks for your reply, rayww.
I don't believe that God is faith because I have always sensed the presence of God, yet I didn't have much or any faith in it. I say "it" because I don't believe in a personal God who created us in his image. I believe that God is a spirit in most if not all of nature including animals, plant life and human life. But I don't believe that God is some kind of figurehead in heaven who listens to or responds to our personal prayers. I think prayer can be effective anyways simply because it is transmitting intention in some metaphysical way. I'm not all that in to metaphysics though. This is my guess based on certain things I've read about why prayer is proven to be effective.
I think the best way to be close to God is to be kind and moral and loving.
But faith is still an issue for me.
Posted by rayww on June 1, 2009, at 22:58:06
In reply to Re: What is your faith in god based on? » rayww, posted by Cass on June 1, 2009, at 22:37:35
> Thanks for your reply, rayww.
> I don't believe that God is faith because I have always sensed the presence of God, yet I didn't have much or any faith in it. I say "it" because I don't believe in a personal God who created us in his image. I believe that God is a spirit in most if not all of nature including animals, plant life and human life. But I don't believe that God is some kind of figurehead in heaven who listens to or responds to our personal prayers. I think prayer can be effective anyways simply because it is transmitting intention in some metaphysical way. I'm not all that in to metaphysics though. This is my guess based on certain things I've read about why prayer is proven to be effective.
> I think the best way to be close to God is to be kind and moral and loving.
> But faith is still an issue for me.Faith is belief in something that is not seen, but is real.
I agree with what you said about the best way to be close to God is to keep His commandments. Even if you don't know you are actually keeping His commandments when you choose to live that way, it still makes a difference.
Posted by Cass on June 2, 2009, at 0:33:58
In reply to Re: What is your faith in god based on?, posted by rayww on June 1, 2009, at 22:58:06
You could call it keeping the commandments, but most religions emphasize love and compassion. I find it remarkable sometimes that people I know are very ethical, kind, compassionate, but some of them do not consider themselves spiritual or religious. I think to myself, those qualities make you spiritual!
I think you are right in your definition of faith. By that definition, I have faith. But I need to be able to allow god to guide me. You may ask why I want god's guidance if I don't believe in a personal god. But I believe that you can turn your life over to the will of god, in other words, to that great spirit that consists of goodness, compassion, forgiveness... People do it. My husband did. It can transform one's life.
Posted by rayww on July 28, 2009, at 12:11:28
In reply to Re: What is your faith in god based on? » rayww, posted by Cass on June 2, 2009, at 0:33:58
> You could call it keeping the commandments, but most religions emphasize love and compassion. I find it remarkable sometimes that people I know are very ethical, kind, compassionate, but some of them do not consider themselves spiritual or religious. I think to myself, those qualities make you spiritual!
> I think you are right in your definition of faith. By that definition, I have faith. But I need to be able to allow god to guide me. You may ask why I want god's guidance if I don't believe in a personal god. But I believe that you can turn your life over to the will of god, in other words, to that great spirit that consists of goodness, compassion, forgiveness... People do it. My husband did. It can transform one's life.In my religion we have never had a set creed, or a list of specific ways to view things. We embrace all that is good from every nation, and religion. We intentionally seek it out, study it, then if it is good we embrace it. No one tells us how fast we need to move through it. We're left entirely on our own in that regard. It's a journey between the person and the higher power. We follow the light and it leads eventually to all truth.
"But" we do have a qualifier. In our religion we believe that Joseph Smith saw God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ, that the Angel Moroni also appeared to him and directed him to the record that he helped write in 400 AD, and instructed him until he was ready to translate it into the Book of Mormon. Mormon was a real person, Moroni's father, who abridged and condensed all the records kept by holy prophets in America during the time the Bible and the Torah, and the Kuran was being compiled in the Holy Land. The Book of Mormon is another testimony of Jesus Christ, with mention of Him on nearly every page.
The people in Bible times and in Book of Mormon were taught to seek after the good, and to love one another. If you don't believe in a personal god, you are far better off to live as you describe, than turn to evil. The time will come when God will reveal Himself to all people everywhere, but until that happens we live by faith and believe the words He has revealed through His prophets, the best we can.
I love to listen to the Book of Proverbs. It's all about understanding, wisdom, and knowledge, and about what happens to our life when we gain those things, as opposed to how self-destructive other paths can be.
If you would like, here is a quick link: Scroll down to Proverbs: http://www.lds.org/mp3/display/0,18692,5297-62,00.html
rayww
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