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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Bird Watcher on September 23, 2008, at 12:47:36
I am a Christian who constantly needs God's work in my life. And I believe that He mostly answers our prayers through other people. I have seen His answers and work in my life. I have too many faults and mental issues to count, but the one thing I can say about myself is that I truly try not to judge others. I believe we all do from time to time. When I first meet someone at church I can't wait to get to know them - to learn their hopes and fears and all of the interesting things that make them tick. I wouldn't care if they were an reformed murderer, compulsive cheater (or eater, talker, whatever), or Mother Theresa herself. I will be the first to tell you that I can be annoying in my special way at times and I struggle with anger/frustration issues. But shouldn't believers in God try to overlook things like this?
Is it just me or does it seem like most people in organized religions care more about proving their own particular doctrines than loving God and loving others like the Bible tells us to do?
Shouldn't all churches (no matter the denomination) be the one place where you truly are welcomed with an open heart?
I get disgusted with so many people who seem to care more about gossiping about what such-and-such has done wrong and seeming proud of their own elevated social status in the church. I know that not everyone is like this. Only recently have I found a church that actually seems to be lacking in this attitude. I thank God for that.
I went to a church for a short time that was so judgmental and cold that I couldn't wait to get to the restaurant afterwards, because the people who worked there were so warm and friendly to us.
I realize that my distorted perception may be skewing things a bit. I just wonder if these more judgmental legalistic people really believe that God wants them to act like this and that He is really impressed with them, or are they simply so unhappy that they can't help it and they just haven't connected in a real relationship with God.
I'm not saying I have the perfect relationship with God, but isn't love what it is all about? Why is so much of it lacking, even in church?
God is my Savior, but even that hasn't helped the incredible loneliness that I have felt at churches. If He can't help me, who can?
I am sorry if I have offended or put down any kind of believer. I do not believe that any denomination or faith (Christian, Islam, Judaism, Hindu, whatever) has a monopoly on eternity. I always thought that no matter what you believe it is all about love - showing it and feeling it.
And I just don't feel it much anymore from anywhere. There is more of it where I have been going the last few weeks, so maybe this is my answer.
I guess I'm just venting here, not even expecting a response. Are all believers this cynical?
Posted by Dinah on September 23, 2008, at 13:38:02
In reply to God help me with my attitude, posted by Bird Watcher on September 23, 2008, at 12:47:36
Unfortunately, anywhere people gather there will be the same problems you have whenever people gather.
It's been my experience that people who believe in God try to be welcoming, and are kind in their own ways. But they, like all, have their own limitations. When I was rejected at church for my beliefs, it wasn't because my churchmates didn't care about me or for me. But to them caring meant worrying about my immortal soul. And I scared them. My views were heretical to them. They were being loving in their own way.
Gossip and politics are rife in churches. Again, they're just people. My favorite pastor peppered his sermons with really funny stories on the topic, though hopefully about anonymous churchmembers from unknown previous assigments. We are all working toward perfect love, but we're not quite there yet, I think.
Church does has one advantage over real life. A passing mention of something in the scriptures on the topic generally is a gentle reminder for people to get back on track.
In the end, it was my mother's church that embraced her and has kept her from her loneliness. I don't know that they are filled with genuine godly love for her. More likely they see her as a test sent by God to try their good intentions. Church can be the most logical step for the lonely.
But you're right. Churches vary a lot in that regard. What is acceptable at churches varies a lot, and finding a good one is key.
Both the churches I attended lately were very loving. But the Sunday School class I've found at this church is just more accepting of differences.
There are good communities out there. It sounds as if you might have found one.
Posted by rayww on September 23, 2008, at 23:21:26
In reply to God help me with my attitude, posted by Bird Watcher on September 23, 2008, at 12:47:36
Rome wasn't built in a day. God's way is to lead you line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; Gradually you overcome your cynicism, and move more toward His love, until you can feel His love for you, and you can express your love for others. Don't worry so much about what others are thinking. They're not perfect either.
Posted by Lou Pilder on September 25, 2008, at 6:32:38
In reply to God help me with my attitude, posted by Bird Watcher on September 23, 2008, at 12:47:36
> I am a Christian who constantly needs God's work in my life. And I believe that He mostly answers our prayers through other people. I have seen His answers and work in my life. I have too many faults and mental issues to count, but the one thing I can say about myself is that I truly try not to judge others. I believe we all do from time to time. When I first meet someone at church I can't wait to get to know them - to learn their hopes and fears and all of the interesting things that make them tick. I wouldn't care if they were an reformed murderer, compulsive cheater (or eater, talker, whatever), or Mother Theresa herself. I will be the first to tell you that I can be annoying in my special way at times and I struggle with anger/frustration issues. But shouldn't believers in God try to overlook things like this?
>
> Is it just me or does it seem like most people in organized religions care more about proving their own particular doctrines than loving God and loving others like the Bible tells us to do?
>
> Shouldn't all churches (no matter the denomination) be the one place where you truly are welcomed with an open heart?
>
> I get disgusted with so many people who seem to care more about gossiping about what such-and-such has done wrong and seeming proud of their own elevated social status in the church. I know that not everyone is like this. Only recently have I found a church that actually seems to be lacking in this attitude. I thank God for that.
>
> I went to a church for a short time that was so judgmental and cold that I couldn't wait to get to the restaurant afterwards, because the people who worked there were so warm and friendly to us.
>
> I realize that my distorted perception may be skewing things a bit. I just wonder if these more judgmental legalistic people really believe that God wants them to act like this and that He is really impressed with them, or are they simply so unhappy that they can't help it and they just haven't connected in a real relationship with God.
>
> I'm not saying I have the perfect relationship with God, but isn't love what it is all about? Why is so much of it lacking, even in church?
>
> God is my Savior, but even that hasn't helped the incredible loneliness that I have felt at churches. If He can't help me, who can?
>
> I am sorry if I have offended or put down any kind of believer. I do not believe that any denomination or faith (Christian, Islam, Judaism, Hindu, whatever) has a monopoly on eternity. I always thought that no matter what you believe it is all about love - showing it and feeling it.
>
> And I just don't feel it much anymore from anywhere. There is more of it where I have been going the last few weeks, so maybe this is my answer.
>
> I guess I'm just venting here, not even expecting a response. Are all believers this cynical?Bird Watcher,
I am unsure as to what you are wanting to mean in your post here. If you could clarify the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
A. You wrote,[...we all do...]
Could you post here who the members of the set of {we} are in [...{we} >all< do...]? If you could, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
B. You wrote,[...most people in organized religions...]
Did you attend a place where Jews and other non-Christians hold their organized religious activities or live in a community that included non-Christians? If so, could you post here how you determined that {most} people in those organized religions fall into the catagory of what you posted here?
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on September 25, 2008, at 18:12:44
In reply to Re: God help me with my attitude » Bird Watcher, posted by Dinah on September 23, 2008, at 13:38:02
> Unfortunately, anywhere people gather there will be the same problems you have whenever people gather.
>
> It's been my experience that people who believe in God try to be welcoming, and are kind in their own ways. But they, like all, have their own limitations. When I was rejected at church for my beliefs, it wasn't because my churchmates didn't care about me or for me. But to them caring meant worrying about my immortal soul. And I scared them. My views were heretical to them. They were being loving in their own way.
>
> Gossip and politics are rife in churches. Again, they're just people. My favorite pastor peppered his sermons with really funny stories on the topic, though hopefully about anonymous churchmembers from unknown previous assigments. We are all working toward perfect love, but we're not quite there yet, I think.
>
> Church does has one advantage over real life. A passing mention of something in the scriptures on the topic generally is a gentle reminder for people to get back on track.
>
> In the end, it was my mother's church that embraced her and has kept her from her loneliness. I don't know that they are filled with genuine godly love for her. More likely they see her as a test sent by God to try their good intentions. Church can be the most logical step for the lonely.
>
> But you're right. Churches vary a lot in that regard. What is acceptable at churches varies a lot, and finding a good one is key.
>
> Both the churches I attended lately were very loving. But the Sunday School class I've found at this church is just more accepting of differences.
>
> There are good communities out there. It sounds as if you might have found one.
>
Dinah,
You wrote,[...{anywhere} people gather there {will be} the same problems you have {whenever} people gather...].
I am unsure as to what you are wanting to mean and if you could clarify the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
A. Could you post here an authority that concludes that {anywhere} people gather there {will be} the same problems that the poster has posted about? I base this on that I have frequented places where only Jewish people gather and places where there are only non-Jewish people except for me and places where there are a pluristic population of people gathering and the problems that are in question here I have never encounterd in those groups that I have been part of the gathering of.
Lou
Posted by Dinah on September 26, 2008, at 7:45:36
In reply to Lou's request for clarification-hupsz » Dinah, posted by Lou Pilder on September 25, 2008, at 18:12:44
All I meant Lou, is that no matter where people gather, they're still people and behave like people.
I didn't mean any specific behaviors.
Posted by Bird Watcher on September 29, 2008, at 3:38:38
In reply to Re: God help me with my attitude » Bird Watcher, posted by Dinah on September 23, 2008, at 13:38:02
Dinah,
Thank you for your reply. I have been praying for guidance in my perspective on this area. You sound like you have a healthy attitude regarding this - I can learn from it :)
Yes, I have seemed to have found a good church for which I'm thankful.
Posted by Bird Watcher on September 29, 2008, at 3:40:53
In reply to Re: God help me with my attitude » Bird Watcher, posted by rayww on September 23, 2008, at 23:21:26
Ray,
Very true words indeed...
This just might be the lesson I need to learn to carry me further on my spiritual journey. I am so used to being rejected everywhere I go. I somehow expected more from church.
Thanks for you and Dinah's response.
Posted by Bird Watcher on September 29, 2008, at 3:42:56
In reply to Lou's request for clarification-ovrnovr » Bird Watcher, posted by Lou Pilder on September 25, 2008, at 6:32:38
Lou,
I am just looking to find a place where I belong. Good people exist everywhere, regardless of whether they go to church or not.
Posted by rayww on September 30, 2008, at 22:36:41
In reply to Re: God help me with my attitude, posted by Bird Watcher on September 29, 2008, at 3:40:53
> Ray,
> Very true words indeed...
> This just might be the lesson I need to learn to carry me further on my spiritual journey. I am so used to being rejected everywhere I go. I somehow expected more from church.
> Thanks for you and Dinah's response.I know it is good to try church out to see if it meets your needs, but I go to church to gain from what I give to others. I don't give to everyone, but I do my best to prepare for the lesson I teach, and get high when it goes well. I get more out of church when I hear more than what is said - - when I let my own thoughts soar and figure things out as I listen to the speaker, who isn't always entertaining. In our church we have sacrament. It can be just a little snack, or depending on what I put into it, can be a spiritual feast. We go to church looking for a decent place to worship God. In my religion we don't shop around, we go where we are planted, and make the best of it. But then there are plenty of jobs to go around, so everyone can feel needed if they want to. Seldom can a person feel fulfilled from religion unless they are engaged in the process, and driven to contribute. If you go there to just sit, you won't get much out of it, in my opinion.
Posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on October 12, 2008, at 9:23:32
In reply to God help me with my attitude, posted by Bird Watcher on September 23, 2008, at 12:47:36
>
> Is it just me or does it seem like most people in organized religions care more about proving their own particular doctrines than loving God and loving others like the Bible tells us to do?
>
> Shouldn't all churches (no matter the denomination) be the one place where you truly are welcomed with an open heart?
>Yes, exactly! Even the Pope has addressed this. (Pope John Paul II). Many people go to church for 'selfish' reasons. The 'bless me' clubs, where they are trying to rank up points, and 'cleanse' themselves of 'sin'...for a week anyways. That is why I believe your/our relationship with God should be very personal, sacred, and watch out for these selfish 'pretend' Christians.
Jay
Posted by rayww on October 18, 2008, at 10:17:41
In reply to Re: God help me with my attitude » Bird Watcher, posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on October 12, 2008, at 9:23:32
> >
> > Is it just me or does it seem like most people in organized religions care more about proving their own particular doctrines than loving God and loving others like the Bible tells us to do?
> >
> > Shouldn't all churches (no matter the denomination) be the one place where you truly are welcomed with an open heart?
> >
>
> Yes, exactly! Even the Pope has addressed this. (Pope John Paul II). Many people go to church for 'selfish' reasons. The 'bless me' clubs, where they are trying to rank up points, and 'cleanse' themselves of 'sin'...for a week anyways. That is why I believe your/our relationship with God should be very personal, sacred, and watch out for these selfish 'pretend' Christians.
>
> JayPeople are always complaining about the churches, but do they ever take a real good look? There are opinions all over the place, and a church for everyone somewhere, but even within church most people are still searching and questioning. When your question becomes a prayer to God, you may be surprised at the answers you will find. http://mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/
Even if a church could be perfect, the people would not be. Church is for people who need. You need to have a problem first, and then you will need church. Need meets need. When you begin your search, include all. Here's the story of Glenn Beck's search for a religion. http://www.meridianmagazine.com/youtube/080619glenn.htmlHe thought organized religion was all about manipulation, power, and money. So, not trusting, they went on a church tour, attending everything from Atheist to Mormon. Things to watch for: happy faces of children, warm feeling. You can trust the children. And I think you can learn how to identify a genuinely happy face from the phony.
ray
Posted by Bird Watcher on November 8, 2008, at 12:08:46
In reply to Re: God help me with my attitude » Jay_Bravest_Face, posted by rayww on October 18, 2008, at 10:17:41
I've been doing a lot of praying and soul-searching lately, along with a lot of Bible reading.
An opportunity presented itself at the church we've been attending for the past three months. It was something I never thought I would be able to do for countless reasons, but my husband is supporting me all the way.
I am going to go on a mission trip in June to Jamaica. I am very excited, and am blown away at the difference actually having a spiritual purpose is making. I see everyone differently now - even the crusty, judgmental, disapproving people. I see them more as not knowing what they are missing and it gives me compassion. Because I know what it feels like to not quite know where you fit in and not feel like you are doing the right thing no matter how much you try to do so outwardly.
My life will remain imperfect with all my foibles and dysfunctions (but I do have God to help me with this, as well as humans (mostly friends on websites and therapists). But having a purpose is helping me to have more compassion with myself and allows me a lot less time to beat up on myself (and others!).
Posted by Dinah on November 20, 2008, at 8:46:57
In reply to Things are Looking Good, posted by Bird Watcher on November 8, 2008, at 12:08:46
That's great!
I hope you check back in and tell us how the mission trip went.
Doesn't compassion feel much better inside than anger? I'm practicing lovingkindness meditations and trying to develop generosity of spirit right now. Clearly I have a long way to go, but I'm really delighted at how much better it feels to me. Not the main purpose of course. But a wonderful side effect.
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 18, 2009, at 6:27:27
In reply to Re: God help me with my attitude » Jay_Bravest_Face, posted by rayww on October 18, 2008, at 10:17:41
> > >
> > > Is it just me or does it seem like most people in organized religions care more about proving their own particular doctrines than loving God and loving others like the Bible tells us to do?
> > >
> > > Shouldn't all churches (no matter the denomination) be the one place where you truly are welcomed with an open heart?
> > >
> >
> > Yes, exactly! Even the Pope has addressed this. (Pope John Paul II). Many people go to church for 'selfish' reasons. The 'bless me' clubs, where they are trying to rank up points, and 'cleanse' themselves of 'sin'...for a week anyways. That is why I believe your/our relationship with God should be very personal, sacred, and watch out for these selfish 'pretend' Christians.
> >
> > Jay
>
> People are always complaining about the churches, but do they ever take a real good look? There are opinions all over the place, and a church for everyone somewhere, but even within church most people are still searching and questioning. When your question becomes a prayer to God, you may be surprised at the answers you will find. http://mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/
> Even if a church could be perfect, the people would not be. Church is for people who need. You need to have a problem first, and then you will need church. Need meets need. When you begin your search, include all. Here's the story of Glenn Beck's search for a religion. http://www.meridianmagazine.com/youtube/080619glenn.html
>
> He thought organized religion was all about manipulation, power, and money. So, not trusting, they went on a church tour, attending everything from Atheist to Mormon. Things to watch for: happy faces of children, warm feeling. You can trust the children. And I think you can learn how to identify a genuinely happy face from the phony.
> rayray,
Would you be willing to have a discussion here concerning what you have posted here? In particular, but not limited to, the content in an offered link in your post? If you could, then I could have the opportunity to present my point of view from a Jewish perspective.
Lou
This is the end of the thread.
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