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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by deirdrehbrt on February 28, 2006, at 21:13:43
Just though I would throw out another topic for discussion.
I know the second word may be a trigger word, but I'm not using it in an accusative manner, so bear with me.First, I think that each of us shows some elements of both at times. We are all human, and none of us can act perfectly always. That's why we're not Gods and Goddesses. We're on a road and learning. I know I've demonstrated the former all too little, and the latter more than I would have liked.
What brought this up though was the memory of a sermon that I heard once, which with I felt a strong disagreement. This particular pastor was giving a sermon about integrity. His definition of integrity was in part, "If you don't believe something yet, act as if you do, and sooner or later you will". It was "Acting on the outside, what you WANT the inside to feel or believe".
My definition of integrity is to not pretend you are what you are not. If you believe truly, that honesty and love and compassion are virtues to be demonstrated and cultivated, then you should demonstrate and cultivate these virtues.
Integrity involves being complete and virtuous, but not with pretense. It involves being true to oneself, as much as being true to those about you.
In matters of faith, it would seem to me that if you are professing a certain faith, then you should act or behave in a manner that brings glory or honor to the deity (ies) of that faith. Where hypocrisy comes in, in my mind, is when someone claims adherence to a faith, and either doesn't really believe what that faith teaches (he's there only for fear of damnation rather than belief in the God, scriptures, etc.) or he's using that faith to show he's (or she's) better than other people.
I think that Christ preached a good deal about the latter. I think too, that He was one of, and perhaps the best example of true integrity in recorded history. Having preached forgiveness, He demonstrated it ultimately on the cross when He forgave those who crucified Him.One of the writers of my faith wrote recently about humility. He said "True humility is recognizing both our strengths and our weakneses, and striving to cultivate the former and to transform the latter". I think that's what I want to do with integrity and hypocrisy. I recognize that I do have both in varying quantities, I hope I'm able to maximize the former and minimize the latter.
Just a thought for discussion.
Blessings,
--Dee
Posted by rayww on March 1, 2006, at 23:42:38
In reply to Integrity and Hypocrisy, posted by deirdrehbrt on February 28, 2006, at 21:13:43
Posted by 10derHeart on March 2, 2006, at 0:20:08
In reply to beautifully expressed (nm) » deirdrehbrt, posted by rayww on March 1, 2006, at 23:42:38
Posted by Dinah on March 3, 2006, at 12:02:23
In reply to Integrity and Hypocrisy, posted by deirdrehbrt on February 28, 2006, at 21:13:43
I wouldn't call what the minister advocated either integrity or hypocrisy. But I would call it a reasonably good strategy for life.
If someone believes in the ideal but finds themselves not living up to it, what's wrong with acting as they wish to become? Good deeds are good deeds, even if they aren't done with the right spirit. And perhaps in time, the spirit will come.
I've always thought hypocrisy got a bad rap. At least those practicing it admit there are values they would like to be able to say they had. The problem comes more if they don't try work on making the saying a reality.
Posted by deirdrehbrt on March 3, 2006, at 21:19:36
In reply to Re: Integrity and Hypocrisy » deirdrehbrt, posted by Dinah on March 3, 2006, at 12:02:23
Dinah,
I agree with you exactly. Acting as you wish to become is not integrity. Nor is it hypocricy.
Integrity though, implies a wholeness and a completeness. When you're acting differently than you feel, you don't have that.I think that Jesus showed that actions motivated by legalism aren't the ideal. They have to be genuine. If the law could save, he wouldn't have had to die. Christianity requires a renewing of the heart.
If you can do that by acting as you want to become, then great! But if you're going to follow the Bible legalistically, and you don't have that renewing of the heart, and you're expecting that because of good works alone (though not heartfelt) you'll receive some sort of reward, that's the sort of thing that (to me) smacks of hypocrisy.I think that every religious tradition sets standards, and one of those standards is acting out of true compassion. Legalism isn't what cuts it. Praying day and night, giving alms, going to church, etc. Those are all good things, but if you are doing them without love, without compassion, and strictly out of a sense of legalistic responsibility, I dont' see that as integrity. It is something that you MUST do, rather than something you truly DESIRE to do.
I see deity as wanting us to DESIRE to do these things. I think that religious traditions tell us what qualities are good and desireable so that we can cultivate them and make them a part of us. Following them as requrements or commandments or laws isn't enough.So... I killed no-one today. I obeyed a commandment. Does that profit me? Of course not. But was I generous and gracious when someone wronged me... Did I refuse to hold a grudge. Did I forgive. Did I do these things because I knew inside that they were the proper way to respond. Did I do these things because I genuinely love my fellow woman or man?
Anyone can SAY "I forgive you". That fulfills the legal part. But to truly let a wrong go, that requires love and compassion.
I guess that's what I was getting at. Acting "as if" works depending on the motive. If you truly desire the qualities Christ demonstrated, you can't do it out of legal obligation.
Don't know if I'm actually making any sense here. Just my thoughts.
--Dee
Posted by Dinah on March 4, 2006, at 2:02:52
In reply to Re: Integrity and Hypocrisy, posted by deirdrehbrt on March 3, 2006, at 21:19:36
I think you need to be really careful here, because different religious institutions have different viewpoints on the view of good works, and you wouldn't wnat to in any way put down the beliefs of those who do believe in the importance of good works. Given the way those texts of the bible have frequently been interpreted re. Christianity and Judaism, I think it's especially important to be careful.
I'm actually one of the people who believe in the importance of good works (a viewpoint that drew me to my current Protestant denomination). You can't always control your feelings, but you can control your behavior. And I would be very surprised if God didn't appreciate one behaving as he would have one behave, just because one didn't have feelings to match.
Not that I do anything to get into heaven. I figure who does and doesn't get into heaven is none of my business, including me. I trust that if there's an after life, God will do what's right. That's just my own personal belief, and of course, not everyone would or should agree.
But, say I didn't particularly care for someone. But I treated them with friendliness and tried to be helpful and kind. Some might say that that is hypocritical. To me, it's just admitting that while my feelings are interesting and valuable, they don't necessarily govern my actions.
Sometimes good works are just good works, and you do them because they're the right thing to do. Not because you want to get in heaven, and not because you're feeling the feelings that would support htose good works, but just because they're right.
If I sat around and waited until my feelings were congruent with what I thought I ought to do, I'd do a whole lot of sleeping.
Posted by rayww on March 4, 2006, at 12:57:05
In reply to Re: Integrity and Hypocrisy » deirdrehbrt, posted by Dinah on March 4, 2006, at 2:02:52
Dinah, In my opinion, the phrase, "doing good works to get into heaven" is blasphemous, for lack of a better word. I think it is sacrilegious when that phrase gets thrown at a person who genuinely loves to be obedient to God just for the sake of being obedient. We know God loves and cares about us and would not ask anything that wasn't for our good, and for the good of mankind in general. Honestly, the idea of doing good works to get into heaven really frosts me. Who coined that phrase anyway? It certainly violates the laws of integrity. It doesn't fit hypocrisy, rather it is more accusitory than anything, kind of a justification for not wanting to do good yourself I guess. Even those who want to do good slip and fall, but get back up and try again. Perhaps the best way to describe the phrase is "twisted". Someone takes a perfectly sound doctrine, and twists it to make it sound wrong. How many other instances are there? I've heard a few, it's like Oh, I haven't realized that was actually what I was doing? Paving my road into heaven? I don't know of any person or religion who says of themself "I'm working my way into heaven". Do you? We all depend on Grace, even after all we can do.
None of the above was directed at you Dinah, simply the phrase.
Posted by Dinah on March 4, 2006, at 13:09:41
In reply to Re: Integrity and Hypocrisy - another twist » Dinah, posted by rayww on March 4, 2006, at 12:57:05
Well, clearly my notions of good works were framed a lot by my upbringing in the Mormon church. :)
And I tend not to question why any particular person does good works, as I think good works to some extent speak for themselves.
I don't know of any churches or doctrine that advocate doing good works to pave their way into heaven, although there have been anecdotal reports of *individuals* who turn to good works in their last days with the possible desire of making up for past sins so as to not enter hell, if there is one. But I prefer to think of them as having had a last minute change of attitude when faced with the larger issues of life and death. And after all, don't all churches believe that genuine repentence and a change of heart will afford you grace from God, no matter what stage of life you are when you offer it? (My husband has always found that to be grossly unfair.)
I agree with you that good works are often done as a tangible symbol of one's love for God and desire to do as he wishes. And just as often done by people who have no formal relationship with God, who may even be atheist, just because good works in themselves have a certain beauty and value.
Posted by rayww on March 4, 2006, at 17:28:38
In reply to Re: Integrity and Hypocrisy - another twist » rayww, posted by Dinah on March 4, 2006, at 13:09:41
> Well, clearly my notions of good works were framed a lot by my upbringing in the Mormon church. :)
<<<<
So were mine :)>
> And I tend not to question why any particular person does good works, as I think good works to some extent speak for themselves.<<<<
Exactly, so why do some insist "you believe that you can work your way into heaven"? We can't exactly say "no we don't" and no matter how we try to explain it, it comes across sounding like we're working our way in. I think the idea of working one's way into heaven, negates God - - takes Him out of the picture, and makes it sound like there are just a set of credentials that one must pass through to be automatically granted entrance.>
> I don't know of any churches or doctrine that advocate doing good works to pave their way into heaven, although there have been anecdotal reports of *individuals* who turn to good works in their last days with the possible desire of making up for past sins so as to not enter hell, if there is one. But I prefer to think of them as having had a last minute change of attitude when faced with the larger issues of life and death. And after all, don't all churches believe that genuine repentence and a change of heart will afford you grace from God, no matter what stage of life you are when you offer it? (My husband has always found that to be grossly unfair.)
><<<<<
there is definately more than one way of looking at it. Did Jesus ever say anyone was going to hell?
http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=hell&search.x=23&search.y=3
He held hope for everyone. Those of my faith believe this life is the time for man to prepare to meet God, http://scriptures.lds.org/alma/34/32#32
it isn't the end all, but a time to prepare. One part of our preparation might include good works. The scripture points out a couple of verses later that it is for our own best interest and good, and also why death bed repentance doesn't work.> I agree with you that good works are often done as a tangible symbol of one's love for God and desire to do as he wishes. And just as often done by people who have no formal relationship with God, who may even be atheist, just because good works in themselves have a certain beauty and value.
<<<
I agree. There is beauty and value in good works alone, and blessed be the person who loves them. Religion does not hold the corner on good works. I think we need to give one another a little slack, stop pointing fingers, and never try to judge the motive. I mean how would it be if after my kind act, the person thought, "she's just doing it to find favor with God". I would hope the person on the other end of my string would know I genuinely cared about them :) I genuinely care about you.
Posted by deirdrehbrt on March 4, 2006, at 20:40:12
In reply to Re: Integrity and Hypocrisy - another twist » Dinah, posted by rayww on March 4, 2006, at 17:28:38
I think we're all on the same page here. As far as people doing "good works" to get to heaven, Jesus spoke of these. They were the ones who made a show of how much they put into the offering plate, or who were resentful of Him for healing on the sabbath, etc. Such people were steeped in the legalism to the point that they ignored the purpose of the law. That's the sort that I'm talking about.
Doing good works because you love the creator / Savior / God(ess), because you know they are the right thing to do is a marvelous demonstration of faith. James said "Faith without works is dead". They are expected of us. But doing them without faith, but out of a strict sense of legalism, to me, isn't what Jesus was talking about. The humble woman with the mote did much more than the rich man showing off.
And again, being rich wasn't the problem. It was the doing good to make yourself look better rather than to give glory to God.
So, I guess what I was trying to say was that there is no problem with doing good works; it's the motive behind them. Are you trying to build your ego, or are you trying to do what the Creator wishes?
As far as Integrity Vs. Hypocrisy, if you are trying to be who the creator wants you to be, that's integrity. If you are trying to build your own ego, to "follow the law" in an attempt to make yourself look better, but still have a hard heart, that's hypocrisy.
Doing the works though, to bring yourself closer to God, even if you don't feel it right now, that's still a good motive, and I think it falls much closer to intetgrity than hypocrisy.
For me, it's motive. Why do we do the works?
--Dee
Posted by Dinah on March 4, 2006, at 20:53:11
In reply to Re: Integrity and Hypocrisy - another twist, posted by deirdrehbrt on March 4, 2006, at 20:40:12
I try not to guess at other people's motives. Particularly when they're doing good works. :)
Also as one who loves the Law, I am uncomfortable with mentions of legalism as a bad thing - even a strict sense of legalism. Since those that love God may use strict adherence to the Law as a way to do His Will. And I wouldn't want to diminish anyone's way of worship.
I am more comfortable leaving intent between a person and his or her higher being.
Posted by deirdrehbrt on March 5, 2006, at 12:27:27
In reply to Re: Integrity and Hypocrisy - another twist » deirdrehbrt, posted by Dinah on March 4, 2006, at 20:53:11
Dinah,
I think you might be missing my point.
I'm not judging anyone. I'm not saying we should judge anyone. I'm not saying we should suspect anyone's notives. I'm not saying that following the law is bad. I'm not accusing that pastor that I heard talking of hypocrisy. I'm not saying that following the law is bad.
My point was to try to define the difference between integrity and hypocrisy, and to have a discussion on that.
My question is basically, "why do you do what you do?"
I think, and this is only MY definition, that integrity is doing the right thing for the right reason. That's the nutshell definition, for me.
I wasn't starting a discussion about who's a hypocrite, and who's a saint. I was just looking at definitions.
I CERTAINLY don't believe that obeying the laws, commandments or beliefs of one's religion is wrong. I am saying that if you are doing so just for bragging rights, then maybe you aren't looking deeply enough at the spirit of the law.
So, a practical example might be if I see Joe brown helping a neighbor every day, but then hear him bragging about it at the club every night, and talking about how she gives him a ten-spot whenever he does, I might be tempted to wonder about his motives.
Again, not judging anybody, not saying that following the law is bad. I'm just trying to say that my definition of integrity depends upon motive. Nor was I judging that pastor's motives or integrity, I was merely disagreeing with his definition.
You sounded like you were getting a little upset; that's not the point of this discussion. We're not accusing anybody of anything, nor pointing fingers at anybody's beliefs. Just trying to examine the definitions of integrity and hypocrisy.
Posted by Dinah on March 5, 2006, at 14:54:18
In reply to Re: Integrity and Hypocrisy - another twist » Dinah, posted by deirdrehbrt on March 5, 2006, at 12:27:27
I wasn't getting upset.
I was rather clumsily, I'm sure, trying to point out that I was certain you didn't mean legalism to refer to Judaism or the observance of Talmudic law. Since that chapter of the bible has not infrequently been used to contrast Judaism and Christianity. Again, given your belief system, I'm certain that was not your intent. And I apologize for being clumsy in what I was trying to do.
Posted by Dinah on March 5, 2006, at 14:55:54
In reply to Re: Integrity and Hypocrisy - another twist » deirdrehbrt, posted by Dinah on March 5, 2006, at 14:54:18
Hmmm... I may have gotten the Talmudic reference wrong. I tend to get terms mixed up if I don't check it out first.
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 5, 2006, at 23:33:21
In reply to Re: Integrity and Hypocrisy - another twist » Dinah, posted by deirdrehbrt on March 5, 2006, at 12:27:27
> I CERTAINLY don't believe that obeying the laws, commandments or beliefs of one's religion is wrong. I am saying that if you are doing so just for bragging rights, then maybe you aren't looking deeply enough at the spirit of the law.
Keeping in mind that the idea here is not to post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down, could you please rephrase that?
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
> We're not accusing anybody of anything, nor pointing fingers at anybody's beliefs. Just trying to examine the definitions of integrity and hypocrisy.
How about if we stick to integrity here and leave hypocrisy for elsewhere?
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by deirdrehbrt on March 7, 2006, at 23:43:35
In reply to Re: please rephrase that » deirdrehbrt, posted by Dr. Bob on March 5, 2006, at 23:33:21
Ok.
I submit the following more politically correct version:
Sometimes I do things for "differently vantaged" or "unconventional" reasons; reasons that are not in accord with what I deem to be correct or proper. I find my myopic (a metaphor, not meant to impugn those requiring corrective treatments for occular non-compliance) interpretations of rules to distort what is ultimately a larger (for me) picture. In recognizing this, I realize that I must (a sadly placed imperative which should not be considered a command to others) search for a refined vision and reconcile spiritual values with that which is more mundane (of course not meaning that 'mundane' or'worldly' is in any sense less valuable or important than is 'spiritual').
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 8, 2006, at 20:42:40
In reply to Re: please rephrase that, posted by deirdrehbrt on March 7, 2006, at 23:43:35
This is the end of the thread.
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