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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on August 7, 2005, at 18:35:30
I guess it's not fair to come to conclusions about our pastor so quickly, but he seems so preoccupied with sin! He took away the prayer for those in need to make room for a confessional prayer. And the public prayers are all for forgiveness, never for joy.
That's not what I want for my son. I want him to have a joyous belief in the human potential. That yes, we do miss the mark from time to time, but we can keep trying. That the human spirit can be a beautiful thing and that is it's major characteristic, not sin. Sin is just not living up to what we can be.
Our old pastor taught that basic message. He challenged us each week to do our best, to reach for the stars, to help those around us. He didn't dwell on our basic sinfulness. He inspired us to be the best and most beautiful souls we could be.
Posted by Mal on August 8, 2005, at 1:22:18
In reply to Sigh. I may have to look for a new church., posted by Dinah on August 7, 2005, at 18:35:30
> I guess it's not fair to come to conclusions about our pastor so quickly, but he seems so preoccupied with sin! He took away the prayer for those in need to make room for a confessional prayer. And the public prayers are all for forgiveness, never for joy.
>
> That's not what I want for my son. I want him to have a joyous belief in the human potential. That yes, we do miss the mark from time to time, but we can keep trying. That the human spirit can be a beautiful thing and that is it's major characteristic, not sin. Sin is just not living up to what we can be.
>
> Our old pastor taught that basic message. He challenged us each week to do our best, to reach for the stars, to help those around us. He didn't dwell on our basic sinfulness. He inspired us to be the best and most beautiful souls we could be.
>Dinah,
I was raised in a very small, independent baptist church, where a bumper crop of churchgoers numbered 100, and everyone knew everyone, and most were related. Until I left home at 18, I was dragged to church at least 3 times a week (more often that that if they were having revival) to hear a preacher yelling hell fire and brimstone sermons. I remember being very small, maybe 6 years old, and growing a very guilty conscience in response to those sermons. I think I was particularly upset by a sermon about King SOlomon (I think) advising 2 women to cut a disputed baby in half in order to discern which was the real mother. Then there were the sermons on Revelation that REALLY upset me. We got a LOT of "Jesus is coming back" sermons, too, and I spent the first half of my life thinking things like, "Jesus will be back before I get my license" or "Time probably won't last long enough for me to go to college." And my Mom wasn't one to smooth it over for me- she still lives and dies by everything that is preached from that pulpit.My older brother and I were talking about how we were raised, and we both agreed that our childhood freedom was eaten up by all that. I don't remember ever being really carefree as a kid. There was always that dark cloud on the horizon. But he is raising his kids in that very same church. Maybe the pastors are different now, but I don't really think so.
Anyway, I am sure your church isn't nearly as interesting as that (that is not to imply your church is boring- I was just looking for a non-offensive adjective, in case we have people here who attend a church just like the one I grew up in). My point is, yes, I agree, I would like a church to be more positive, but I turned out OK (that might be debatable), even being raised as I was. I would definitely give it a few weeks before changing churches. If there are other things to keep you there (your son's Sunday School friends, community, activities, etc.), you can try to take up the torch and talk to your boy about life and humanity being more positive than what is presented in the sermon. Maybe you weren't even asking for advice, there... Anyway, that is my 2 cents. Sorry for the long rant, but I thought it might help for you to know where I am coming from...
Have a great week!
MAL
Posted by Tamar on August 8, 2005, at 5:25:42
In reply to Sigh. I may have to look for a new church., posted by Dinah on August 7, 2005, at 18:35:30
Oh dear. I can see why you don’t want your son to grow up amid a preoccupation with sin. And I have to say, I believe strongly that intercession is a central part of prayer and I can’t understand why a pastor wouldn’t include intercessionary prayer. I think it’s appropriate to pray of forgiveness, but not exclusively! In my tradition, confessional prayers are particularly appropriate prior to communion, but intercessionary prayers are always appropriate.
I’ve always felt that sin is such a minor part of our relationship with God. To me, a focus on sin is like having a friendship where you spend all your time thinking about whether you’ve wronged the other person. Sure, people sometimes make mistakes, but true friends are usually forgiving without needing a big song and dance about it. My biggest problem with a focus on sin is that it’s so often (in my experience) about personal sins like pride or envy, and almost never about our collective responsibility for poverty or violence. But I could rant on about that forever…
Can you talk to your pastor about it?
Posted by Dinah on August 8, 2005, at 16:29:34
In reply to This may not relate... » Dinah, posted by Mal on August 8, 2005, at 1:22:18
I think even with the new pastor, my church isn't that interesting. :)
Part of the problem may be that I stayed at this church mainly for the old pastor. I know it's supposed to be the case that the congregation is the main entity, and pastors come and go. But I've always had trouble (in this denomination anyway) with that concept since the pastor plays such a huge role in setting the tone of the service. There are few kids my son's age. Only one other in his class. There aren't many people in the same stage of life as my husband and I, or people we seem to have a great deal in common with.
There is a much larger church of the same denomination nearby, and I've always wanted to check it out, but our pastor was so darn great at theology and sermons that I couldn't bear to consider leaving.
I suppose if I felt more ties to the congregation we could all hunker down together and complain. :) I gather from some asides I've overheard that many people are not enchanted.
I appreciate your sharing your opinion and advice. It helped me clarify some of my dissatisfaction as being with the size and limitations of the congregation.
Posted by Dinah on August 8, 2005, at 16:36:39
In reply to Re: Sigh. I may have to look for a new church. » Dinah, posted by Tamar on August 8, 2005, at 5:25:42
There's a meet and greet this week or next, something like that. I may try to go and get a better feel for him.
I know it's not charitable of me to jump to conclusions so quickly. :(
But those little changes are so telling! In reviewing the old worship service and the new, I can see that all elements were there. But in the old it was silent confession and public intercessory prayer and in the new one it's reversed. I've never been all that fond of standardized confessions, to tell the truth. And I've always considered the public intercessory prayer time a time where we can also find out where there is need, bond, and do all those wonderful interpersonal things.
And he did away with the children's portion of the service. Another little thing, but again telling. To me there was nothing more in keeping with the spirit of the service than that short lesson presented by one of our gifted teachers, and the refreshingly innocent theological contributions by the littlest ones.
I'm way too particular. My husband keeps telling me I'd need to start my own church to be happy. He won't even let me attend some guest preachers' sermons. :)
(I'd love to tell you what prompted that, but it's not fit for the faith board.)
Posted by Tamar on August 8, 2005, at 21:01:28
In reply to Re: Sigh. I may have to look for a new church. » Tamar, posted by Dinah on August 8, 2005, at 16:36:39
> There's a meet and greet this week or next, something like that. I may try to go and get a better feel for him.
Sounds like a good plan.
> I know it's not charitable of me to jump to conclusions so quickly. :(
Well, maybe it's not jumping to conclusions. After all, you're pointing out some fairly hefty changes in theological stance.
> But those little changes are so telling! In reviewing the old worship service and the new, I can see that all elements were there. But in the old it was silent confession and public intercessory prayer and in the new one it's reversed. I've never been all that fond of standardized confessions, to tell the truth. And I've always considered the public intercessory prayer time a time where we can also find out where there is need, bond, and do all those wonderful interpersonal things.
I completely agree. That's what's important to me in worship too.
> And he did away with the children's portion of the service. Another little thing, but again telling. To me there was nothing more in keeping with the spirit of the service than that short lesson presented by one of our gifted teachers, and the refreshingly innocent theological contributions by the littlest ones.
Oooh, I feel a rant coming on. He did away with the children's portion of the service? Does he have another way of including the children in worship? (I've just deleted six sarcastic comments; I'm really not sure I should be on this board...)
> I'm way too particular. My husband keeps telling me I'd need to start my own church to be happy. He won't even let me attend some guest preachers' sermons. :)
>
> (I'd love to tell you what prompted that, but it's not fit for the faith board.)Oh, I want to know SO badly!
(((((Dinah)))))
It's horrible to feel your church isn't for you any more. I've been there. It was awful.I hope things work out OK.
Tamar
Posted by wildcard on August 8, 2005, at 23:48:57
In reply to Sigh. I may have to look for a new church., posted by Dinah on August 7, 2005, at 18:35:30
I had finally found a church where i felt *ok* to be me and it hurt so badly when i looked over to the next pew and there sat the family of the man that raped me, staring at me...i left and didn't go back. I now regret that. I wish i had stayed but i wasn't nearly as strong as I am now. Then i found another small church that welcomed every1 or so i thought. I went for awhile until during one particular sermon, the preacher who is supposed to be a man of God made a very blunt racist remark about another ethnic group. I was shocked and appalled and only went back 1 more time to tell him i would pray for him. I keep telling myself I need to go back to church but i never do. That is my goal for this Sunday.
Posted by Dinah on August 10, 2005, at 22:25:36
In reply to Re: Sigh. I may have to look for a new church., posted by wildcard on August 8, 2005, at 23:48:57
Of course you couldn't stay at the first church. Sigh. It shouldn't have been you that needed to leave though.
It isn't too much to ask to want a church that supports your values. I know you'll be able to find one. But looking is not a pleasant prospect, I realize.
Good luck this Sunday.
Posted by Dinah on August 10, 2005, at 22:27:18
In reply to Re: Sigh. I may have to look for a new church. » Dinah, posted by Tamar on August 8, 2005, at 21:01:28
Well, the current mention of children at the service is that they should exit quietly to children's church during a hymn.
I feel almost silly minding so much about that. My son's mostly outgrown it. But it does matter to me. A lot.
Posted by wildcard on August 10, 2005, at 23:17:26
In reply to Re: Sigh. I may have to look for a new church. » wildcard, posted by Dinah on August 10, 2005, at 22:25:36
Posted by spriggy on August 11, 2005, at 0:25:48
In reply to Thanx Dinah. (nm), posted by wildcard on August 10, 2005, at 23:17:26
Posted by Dinah on August 18, 2005, at 9:18:33
In reply to Re: Sigh. I may have to look for a new church. » Dinah, posted by Tamar on August 8, 2005, at 21:01:28
Or listen to annoyed parishioners.
He's put the children's sermon back in, in both services instead of just one.
Whew!
Posted by Tamar on August 19, 2005, at 5:34:59
In reply to He must read this board. :) » Tamar, posted by Dinah on August 18, 2005, at 9:18:33
> Or listen to annoyed parishioners.
Let's hope it's that he listens! That bodes well for the future.
> He's put the children's sermon back in, in both services instead of just one.
>
> Whew!Whew indeed! I'm glad that he seems to be prepared to work *with* his congregation instead of imposing himself on you all. Maybe he'll work out OK... I hope so.
This is the end of the thread.
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