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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 28. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by NikkiT2 on January 9, 2005, at 8:58:00
I know this board isn't the place for discussing this per se, but I can't think of anywhere else to post this question, and also I know I will get great responses here.
Anyway.. I'm unsure of the real definition of being Agnostic.. I thought, the basic premise, was that they don't believe in God, but don't entirely rule out the possibility of their being a God.. Open to persuasion is what I mean I guess!
If my understanding is correct, surely this is the best place for Agnostics to discuss faith?
You see, I really enjoy discussing faith.. I love learning why people feel the way they do about their faith - whatever faith that is. But, I'm currently not a believer in anything in particular.. I don't enjoy being told that someone else's way is the right way, or the only way, as I don't know what path I may end up taking, and don't like being made for feel a lesser person.. But I love hearing about other peoples paths..
I don't know whether these ideas I have make me agnostic.. or what they make me.. curious? nosey? ripe for the converting? *l*
I never promised more than a ramble.. and now I need to hang the washing out!
Nikki
Posted by rayww on January 9, 2005, at 17:14:02
In reply to A ramble on being Agnostic, posted by NikkiT2 on January 9, 2005, at 8:58:00
I don't know what the definition is, but the first word that came to mind as I read your post was "narcistic". So, rather than ignore it, I decided to examine it to see if there was a fit. What do you think? Does a person who claims a belief in nothing, believe in themself? Turning it around and looking at it from another angle, would (if there was a God) God look at the agnostic and see narcism? I'm not talking about Nikki2, I'm talking about the term only. Hmmm.
Posted by NikkiT2 on January 9, 2005, at 17:28:11
In reply to Hanging out the wash » NikkiT2, posted by rayww on January 9, 2005, at 17:14:02
Maybe a better term would be that I don't know what I believe in..
My brain is a very scientific brain really.. I believe in things I have seen. Its hard to step outside of the boundries when you have never known any different.
Maybe part of my path will be to accept that I will never understand faith.. I don't know.
Nikki
Posted by MKB on January 9, 2005, at 23:11:35
In reply to A ramble on being Agnostic, posted by NikkiT2 on January 9, 2005, at 8:58:00
Nikki, I think it is wonderful that you are searching and have an open mind. The God of the Old and New Testaments says, "If you seek me, you will surely find me." Best wishes for a thrilling journey.
Posted by nikkit2 on January 10, 2005, at 7:37:26
In reply to Hanging out the wash » NikkiT2, posted by rayww on January 9, 2005, at 17:14:02
My rpely to you yesterday was very brief, as I was unable to think of how to reply.
Firstly, I was very hurt by you implying that I am narcistic simply for not believing in YOUR god.
You see, every time I try and open dialogue on here about my path and where that path might be leading, I get comments like this. yet again, someone has come along to push me away from that fork in the road, and almost ensured that I never will try to follow your god. I never get such statements from Jews, Hindu's, Buddhists etc.. Only from "Christians", and that hurts me very much.
I'm open to ALL faiths, and my post wasn't about finding "God, the father of Christ", or simplyu Christ. My post was about finding something that fits me, something I can follow and find peace through.. whether that is with Buddha, God or Krishna.
To turn your question around, do you think it Narcistic to automatically presume that there is only one path to follow, and that is to your God?
Nikki
Posted by MKB on January 10, 2005, at 9:17:15
In reply to Re: Hanging out the wash » rayww, posted by nikkit2 on January 10, 2005, at 7:37:26
Please don't judge all Christians by the response that offended you. Not all that call themselves Christians really are.
Posted by nikkit2 on January 10, 2005, at 9:31:33
In reply to Re: Hanging out the wash » nikkit2, posted by MKB on January 10, 2005, at 9:17:15
Oh, I know that.. Its just, when you're trying to find the path that fits, to be "put down" for it is very disheartening.
I've studied Christianity.. I am comfirmed (Protestant - Church of England), and thus had 18 months of weekly bible study etc.. I tried SO hard to believe.. but it didn't happen. Then, one day I missed Church. I was due to take a very important exam on the Monday mroning and felt studying was more important. Unfortunately, my minister didn't agree, and was quite upset that I had chosen my working future over the church.
I've not taken communion, or gone to church (other than weddings / births / deaths) since.Nikki
Posted by MKB on January 10, 2005, at 9:56:08
In reply to Re: Hanging out the wash » MKB, posted by nikkit2 on January 10, 2005, at 9:31:33
I'm so sorry that happened to you and I don't blame you. Yes, Christians, even ministers, can be cruel. I've met a few myself. We all have this judgemental tendency within us. Maybe another church could better meet your needs. Christ wants us to be part of a church, but our relationship with him is personal, and nothing, not even a church, can change that. Once he makes himself known to an individual who receives him in faith, he will not let you down. He promised never to leave us. Turn to the Christ you used to know. Read the Bible for yourself, such as the gospel of John. Maybe you will find something there. I hope you don't mind me praying that He will reveal more about himself to you. But he never forces himself on anyone and neither will I. Wishing you all the best...
Posted by Snoozin on January 10, 2005, at 11:21:18
In reply to A ramble on being Agnostic, posted by NikkiT2 on January 9, 2005, at 8:58:00
Nikki,
It's very interesting that you post this. I've gone through many stages of belief and disbelief and would love to find peace in my *belief system.* The guy I am dating now went from devout Muslim to an agnostic because he couldn't deal with the brutality he sees in the world. After talking to him about these things, I again find myself struggling with faith.
You also mentioned your *scientific brain.* I have read that faith comes more easily to those who have a larger prefrontal cortex (I think that's the part of the brain, forgive me if I'm wrong.) Which I found to be very interesting. Scientific types don't have real *strength* in this area, it seems.
I feel happy for people with strong faith in God. I wish I were one of them, but it waxes and wanes as things in my life change. If you have any insight, I'd love to hear it.
:-)
Susan
Posted by MKB on January 10, 2005, at 12:24:07
In reply to Nikki » NikkiT2, posted by Snoozin on January 10, 2005, at 11:21:18
I hope you don't mind if I comment even though your post was not addressed to me. I feel that I am very objective, yet my faith is strong. I would say there are many factors that strengthen faith. One is a personal experience with God, where he supernaturally reveals himself. Another factor is intellectual understanding about your belief system and being satisfied that your scriptures are reliable. Another factor is an attitude of heart, where we approach God humbly, as a child willing to be taught. And finally, faith grows when we step out on it, when we test it and find that it works. A car in your driveway doesn't do you any good unless you get in it and drive it. If you can believe that there is a God who wants to be known, seek him. He will not hide from you. Speak to him and ask him to reveal himself to you. He will.
Posted by Snoozin on January 10, 2005, at 12:49:06
In reply to Re: Nikki » Snoozin, posted by MKB on January 10, 2005, at 12:24:07
> I hope you don't mind if I comment even though your post was not addressed to me.
<<Totally fine. :-)>>I feel that I am very objective, yet my faith is strong.
<<I didn't mean to imply that objective/scientific-minded people have weaker faith in God.In fact, the idea that there is a *God gene* or a more evolved/higher functioning part of the brain that permits/helps people to believe in God fits in with my concept of God and creation. I think the world as we know it is so complex, we cannot possibly understand everything there is to know about God and the universe. So if He wanted to impose some physical difference on people to enhance faith, that sounds reasonable and possible to me.
I tend to think of faith the way I do intelligence. Some people are naturally smart, but others, who aren't as smart, can achieve just as much intellectually if they work really hard at it. I think in the faith category, I would have to be one who worked really hard at it. Unfortunately, my great struggles with depression have made me question my faith much more in the past 10 years, when I feel it should have *helped* me through depression.
>>being satisfied that your scriptures are reliable.
<<I am not satisfied that my scriptures are reliable. Wish I were.>> Another factor is an attitude of heart, where we approach God humbly, as a child willing to be taught.
<<Tried that. Often. For years. Honestly, I want to have a very strong faith in God. I just haven't gotten there yet.>>Speak to him and ask him to reveal himself to you. He will.
<<I've asked. I've asked why I have suffered such aching depression. Is it a punishment for something I've done? I haven't been *that* bad in life. Is it to teach me a lesson? If so, I haven't learned it. I don't know what I'm supposed to learn.I'm not being sarcastic or facetious. I genuinely want to believe in God fully and I try to live my life as a good person. I just don't know how to do it.
Posted by rayww on January 10, 2005, at 13:03:42
In reply to Re: Hanging out the wash » rayww, posted by nikkit2 on January 10, 2005, at 7:37:26
I thought I made it clear that I was trying to understand the terms, not you personally. I asked what I thought was a reasonable question. Sorry Nikki. Like you, I too was in a hurry, on a 10 minute break.
Posted by NikkiT2 on January 10, 2005, at 13:22:34
In reply to Nikki » NikkiT2, posted by Snoozin on January 10, 2005, at 11:21:18
You got me!!! You GOT what I was saying!! Yes.. thats it.. The thought of being able to put all my faith into something, that that something would then answer so many questions that to me are unanswered seems like such a wonderful thing.. Maybe thats why I am seeking as I am.
I have such a strong feelin that there *is* somethin out there for me to find.. but I have no idea what so ever that something is!! I don't know even if I'm sniffing in the right direction..
Is it wrong to yearn for nirvana? I don't think so.. surely thats what everyone must want?!
Nikki x
Posted by MKB on January 10, 2005, at 13:44:51
In reply to Re: Nikki » MKB, posted by Snoozin on January 10, 2005, at 12:49:06
I too have struggled with aching depression...long-term, and it is indeed a severe test of faith. But without the faith I would have killed myself long ago. Whevever I feel the most miserable, that is when the faith kicks in and "saves" me.
Posted by MKB on January 10, 2005, at 13:53:04
In reply to Re: Nikki » Snoozin, posted by NikkiT2 on January 10, 2005, at 13:22:34
This is my view: God created us for His glory, not for our glory. It is only when we seek to glorify him that we attain the happiness we seek. A verse in Matthew says, "Seek first the kingdom of God and all these things will be added unto you."
Posted by Snoozin on January 10, 2005, at 15:06:18
In reply to Re: Nikki » Snoozin, posted by NikkiT2 on January 10, 2005, at 13:22:34
> Is it wrong to yearn for nirvana? I don't think so.. surely thats what everyone must want?!
>
> Nikki x<<It's not wrong at all! I feel the same way. I think part of my problem is I don't fit into any particular defined religion or faith, or denomination of Christianity. I took this quiz on BeliefNet.com, which I really like, BTW. It made me feel a little more normal, like there was a place for my beliefs. You might find it interesting. Oddly, even though I was raised Episcopalian, I tested as a *Reform Jew.* Fine with me.....
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/76/story_7665_1.html
Posted by Angel Girl on January 11, 2005, at 1:22:44
In reply to Re: Hanging out the wash » rayww, posted by nikkit2 on January 10, 2005, at 7:37:26
Nikki
I would've been hurt had I received the reply that you had too but please don't judge all Christians to being the same. I am a Christian, Presybterian, and I would not have replied you in the same way as the other poster did. I'm sorry that you were hurt by the reply you were given.
AG
> My rpely to you yesterday was very brief, as I was unable to think of how to reply.
>
> Firstly, I was very hurt by you implying that I am narcistic simply for not believing in YOUR god.
>
> You see, every time I try and open dialogue on here about my path and where that path might be leading, I get comments like this. yet again, someone has come along to push me away from that fork in the road, and almost ensured that I never will try to follow your god. I never get such statements from Jews, Hindu's, Buddhists etc.. Only from "Christians", and that hurts me very much.
>
> I'm open to ALL faiths, and my post wasn't about finding "God, the father of Christ", or simplyu Christ. My post was about finding something that fits me, something I can follow and find peace through.. whether that is with Buddha, God or Krishna.
>
> To turn your question around, do you think it Narcistic to automatically presume that there is only one path to follow, and that is to your God?
>
> Nikki
Posted by Angel Girl on January 11, 2005, at 1:32:17
In reply to Re: Hanging out the wash » nikkit2, posted by MKB on January 10, 2005, at 9:56:08
I totally agree with the reply below that was given to you.> I'm so sorry that happened to you and I don't blame you. Yes, Christians, even ministers, can be cruel. I've met a few myself. We all have this judgemental tendency within us. Maybe another church could better meet your needs. Christ wants us to be part of a church, but our relationship with him is personal, and nothing, not even a church, can change that. Once he makes himself known to an individual who receives him in faith, he will not let you down. He promised never to leave us. Turn to the Christ you used to know. Read the Bible for yourself, such as the gospel of John. Maybe you will find something there. I hope you don't mind me praying that He will reveal more about himself to you. But he never forces himself on anyone and neither will I. Wishing you all the best...
Posted by judy1 on January 11, 2005, at 17:26:11
In reply to Nikki » NikkiT2, posted by Snoozin on January 10, 2005, at 11:21:18
a really great thread- thank you for posting where you are spiritually, Nikki- and Susan thank you for your thoughts. I think those of us that are still on this journey, where we question the reality of a higher power, do ultimately want to *believe*. My faith also waxes and wanes, and that has more to do with what I see going on in the world today than where I am mentally (or emotionally). I do think it's common to seek comfort and sometimes that can be found through our loved ones. Sometimes I wonder what I'm missing when I meet those who have this unshakable faith and I wonder if I'm capable of that myself. hey, I get to ramble too :-)
take care, judy
Posted by alexandra_k on January 11, 2005, at 19:02:28
In reply to Hanging out the wash » NikkiT2, posted by rayww on January 9, 2005, at 17:14:02
According to "The Cambridge Dictionary of Philosophy"
>Agnosticism is a form of scepticism applied to metaphysics, especially theism [theism is the view that god exists]. The position is sometimes attributed to Kant, who held that we cannot have knowledge of God or immortality but must be content with faith. Agnosticism should not be confused with Atheism, the belief that no God exists.
So I guess that the term is fitting in the sense that you are unsure whether god exists or not. But maybe the view goes further than you would want to comitt yourself to by maintaining that we 'cannot have knowledge' and that all that is left is faith.
> I don't know what the definition is, but the first word that came to mind as I read your post was "narcistic".
Hmm. Maybe 'nihilistic' is more fitting? Nihilists believe in 'nothing' or the negation of certain things (eg that there are no objective morals or god or whatever).
Maybe without god all that is left is oneself. Maybe nihilism about god leads to narcissism. But if all one is nihilistic about is god then it seems that we still have the universe and within the universe the rest of the natural world.
One doesn't have to be a narcissist because one is a nihilist about god.
One doesn't have to be religious to have an understanding of faith.
Unless, of course you believe faith in god is different in kind from faith in other things.
I don't think it is but I understand that others here feel differently.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 12, 2005, at 1:30:20
In reply to Re: Hanging out the wash, posted by alexandra_k on January 11, 2005, at 19:02:28
actually forget the 'nihilism' 'narcissism' stuff. I don't know what I was on about there. No idea what rayww meant.
Posted by Snoozin on January 12, 2005, at 8:52:24
In reply to Re: Nikki and Susan, posted by judy1 on January 11, 2005, at 17:26:11
> I think those of us that are still on this journey, where we question the reality of a higher power, do ultimately want to *believe*.
<<I totally agree. I *want* to have a very strong faith. Sometimes I do, with no questions, and sometimes I don't, wondering if I am somehow defective that I can't get myself to have faith.
Susan
Posted by judy1 on January 12, 2005, at 12:35:15
In reply to Re: Nikki and Susan » judy1, posted by Snoozin on January 12, 2005, at 8:52:24
Sometimes I do, with no questions, and sometimes I don't, wondering if I am somehow defective that I can't get myself to have faith.
>
> SusanHi Susan,
I wonder if a person can just 'get' faith. well that's probably wrong, because I know some people actually experience epiphanies. but I can't believe that you are 'somehow defective' (because I would have to admit that I am also :-), simply because you haven't had this type of experience. Hopefully I don't sound like a broken record, but I just feel that many of us are meant to be on a spiritual journey, and that in itself is a positive thing.
take care, judy
Posted by SLS on January 16, 2005, at 8:03:06
In reply to A ramble on being Agnostic, posted by NikkiT2 on January 9, 2005, at 8:58:00
> I know this board isn't the place for discussing this per se, but I can't think of anywhere else to post this question, and also I know I will get great responses here.
I think to be agnostic is to have doubt. It is probably a very good thing that God has inspired us with doubt, as it is what often leads us to belief.
Belief in what?
This is a good question that I found helpful to ask myself as I struggled through my periods of agnosticism and atheism.
Are you asking yourself if you believe in the god that you were taught existed as a child? Is the definition and character of God bound by what any man can conceive Him to be? Is it the conceptualization of god as presented in Judaeo-Christian systems that you are having problems with in organizing your belief system? There are others.
I believe in God. That is about as much as I am willing to share at this post. I arrived at this point because of my inability answer that which I believe will always remain unanswerable. "Why existence?"
The "how" of existence question is much easier to approach. Whether one believes in Creationism or the Big Bang and subsequent biological Evolution is a matter of "how" things came to be. To know "why" things exist at all is to know the Mind of God. I would be curious as to whom would profess to know this.
I guess that's all for now. I look forward to see if this sort of post is acceptable in this forum.
- Scott
Posted by AuntieMel on January 18, 2005, at 12:03:39
In reply to Re: Nikki and Susan » judy1, posted by Snoozin on January 12, 2005, at 8:52:24
I am often envious of those that have a true book-independent faith. The inward faith that needs no rituals or reinforcement. It must be so comforting.
But I have a scientific brain that just can't wrap itself around any of the belief systems that *I* know about. And it's something that cannot be forced, either.
I get what peace I do get from creating things. A nice garden, a bit of stained glass, a drawing, a superbly written bit of code.....
I just need to accept that this peace is 'good enough.'
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