![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 89. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by 64bowtie on October 29, 2004, at 1:42:41
I keep hearing faith bandied about as a designated end or purpose, ignoring the object of the very faith (God) being felt, leaving me wondering how we got there.
Dictionary dot com:
1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief. See Synonyms at trust.
2. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
3. The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
4. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
5. A set of principles or beliefs.At no time do these definitions imply that faith is a weapon to be used to wipe out beleivers in other faiths. Also, testing folks' integrity based on their ferver in this or that faith, implies faith is more important than God.
For a long time now I have thought that this odd application of faith needed a different word to describe. Suddenly last week it came to me; FAITHISM: faith in faith itself, or faith is the object of the faith itself.
I don't say this to offend anyone. I only point out that this doesn't get anyone closer to their particular godhead. Faith is abstract reasoning, not known but rather felt. A tarantula, a cow, and an octopus, probably don't have faith. We can have faith and believe. These are wonderful traits not available to animals, per se. Let's all use them to find a better life.
Rod
Posted by rayww on October 30, 2004, at 2:58:42
In reply to About faith...., posted by 64bowtie on October 29, 2004, at 1:42:41
Rod what I think you are saying is faith that isn't centered in God is faithism. I know faith is not an emotion or a passion, but let me try to describe how I feel when I think of faith. If my description becomes a tad abstract, please know it is because it just isn't easy to define.
Sacred. Personal to me. Private, too special to offend. Please don't insult or discredit, have seen too much evidence of it to ever doubt the reality of faith, My mother has been an example of faith to me all of my life. beset with physical handicaps, I have personally witnessed her lean on faith when she had no more strength, and then been part of her miracle as I witnessed God caring for her in his own way. When my brother nearly died I wintessed her faith. when my father died at a very young age it was the most difficult journey for her. the feeling I have when I think of my mother is similar to the feeling I have when I think of god and of faith, they go together. It's a reverent, head bowed, drop to my knees, tears well up in my eyes, sad for all the pain of life, but happy for the rich abundance of peace that comes in the midst of it all. It's a deep love and reverence for God. almost a coiling up of my soul because of the intensity of the feeling. Overflowing with tenderness and compassion, I have watched my mother live by faith and succeed in bringing love and kindness to everyone she knows. In spite of her physical disabilities, she is always busy, and many who do not have another good friend are her best. it's like my soul, my heart, my chest wells up in tears and weeps out of passion for my savior, my god, my dad, and my mother. How does one describe the passion of the Christ, or how passionate you are about faith? You can't put it into words, so we babble over definitions and see what the scriptures have to say about it, but do we really try to capture what *we* have to say about it? How can I (we) describe the feeling we get when we think of faith? It's just a powerful thing in our life and we know faith when we watch someone who activates it in every step of her life. Without faltering. man, there is no one who could convince me that faith does not exist. I have seen too much of it to ever be a betrayer.
I honestly do not know how to describe it with words, because its definition can only be felt and absorbed, illuminated, shared. Maybe faith is only defined by the lives we touch. It's used to bless the lives of other people, and glorify God. to glorify God means to add to his glory, and when we add to His glory, he shares the shine with us. Radiate. countenance. beam, eye of purity, a never ending story. soft pillows to land on when we fall, the most sacred of feelings because no one knows how another regards faith. everyone has faith, even if they do not know it yet. you can't live without it. it would be impossible to live without faith. can you even imagine it? yikes.
Posted by SLS on October 30, 2004, at 7:41:19
In reply to Re: About faith...., posted by rayww on October 30, 2004, at 2:58:42
Someone once told me that faith was the belief in the mystery of being - the things that could not be seen. What is blind faith?
- Scott
Posted by rayww on October 30, 2004, at 8:41:21
In reply to Re: About faith...., posted by SLS on October 30, 2004, at 7:41:19
I would say blind faith is having the courage to take a step into the darkness, trusting that God will show you the way as you place one foot in front of the other, (baby steps). The darkness is any unknown territory. Sometimes in depression we find ourselves sinking deep into unknown territory. Blind faith would have us explore around while we are down there, and try to take it as far as we can, allowing the old festered slivers to work their way through so the healing can begin. It's a scary place to be, but with 'blind' faith, coupled with fervent prayer, all will be well, no matter what else happens. It may take awhile, but maybe that's what life is all about.
Posted by SLS on October 30, 2004, at 8:50:49
In reply to Re: About faith...., posted by rayww on October 30, 2004, at 8:41:21
Hi.
> I would say blind faith is having the courage to take a step into the darkness, trusting that God will show you the way as you place one foot in front of the other, (baby steps). The darkness is any unknown territory.
> It's a scary place to be,
Very.
I think I'm too scared to do that.
> but with 'blind' faith, coupled with fervent prayer, all will be well, no matter what else happens. It may take awhile, but maybe that's what life is all about.
The only thing that I find crushingly important enough to take such a mind-altering trip would be for my healing from the brain disorder I suffer from.
Thank you very much for your reply. It makes a lot of sense.
- Scott
Posted by 64bowtie on October 30, 2004, at 17:51:39
In reply to Re: About faith...., posted by rayww on October 30, 2004, at 2:58:42
Rayww,
> I know faith is not an emotion or a passion,
<<< How do you get faith? You emote emotions, don't you? You emote passions don't you? I'm not trying to use trickiness to trap you, Rayww. I want to settle your mind that its OK to have faith in yourself, and everyone around you. God says to have faith in him, implying you will know what that feels like since you already have faith in yourself and your abilities. It's OK to have faith in simple stuff. I see it as aiding in overcoming any doubts normal people might have about God. They get to know the territory. If our only faith is only available via induction, the faith is never ours. It is faith overlayed by someone else thus not ours. Isn't that dangerous to only muster up a quantity of faith in God that really is being induced into us for whatever reason? Doesn't match up with the teachings in the Bible. Your belief in God must belong to you, not someone who is doing the thinking for you! Otherwise no entrance into His kingdom....!
Rod
Posted by rayww on October 30, 2004, at 22:41:19
In reply to If not, how do you get faith? » rayww, posted by 64bowtie on October 30, 2004, at 17:51:39
I think I see what you mean. If I have faith in myself, I will say "I can do this" and "I can love this" "I can love me". Then, the most amazing gift will be to suddenly wake up and realize that our faith in God has grown too, because God promises that "inasmuch as ye have done to the least of these, my brethren, ye have done it unto me".
Is faith faith then? Will having faith in one's self eventually lead to faith in God?
Faith is simple. Ask a child. Some of us grow too far away from our childlike nature.
Have you ever been around a person who worships himself? How about a person who thinks of others? Whom would you say is the happiest and most fulfilled?
Those who look to God and think of others find that God looks after them. Therefore a part of faith is just that, and as god looks after us, our faith grows because we cannot help but acknowledge his hand in all things. I testify that his hand is recognizable.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 30, 2004, at 23:48:25
In reply to Re: If not, how do you get faith? » 64bowtie, posted by rayww on October 30, 2004, at 22:41:19
When I started posting on faith a while back I said that I had faith in many things (though not much religious faith). One can have faith in so many things...
The intentions of others
That the world won't be destroyed overnight
That ones life will improve
That one will not get sucked down that hole forever... etc.I have seen people who have faith where I would be consumed by despair. Sometimes becuase they have faith in god, sometimes because they have faith in the universe, sometimes because they have faith in their ability to cope.
For me faith is easier when I am in a good mood.
'The world of the happy is quite another than that of the unhappy'.
I would prefer to see the world through the lens of faith
Posted by alexandra_k on November 1, 2004, at 2:01:51
In reply to Re: If not, how do you get faith?, posted by alexandra_k on October 30, 2004, at 23:48:25
Posted by rayww on November 1, 2004, at 20:45:10
In reply to Re: If not, how do you get faith?, posted by alexandra_k on October 30, 2004, at 23:48:25
Faith, hope, charity without God in the equasion is just a positive mental attitude. There is a big difference between a PMA and faith. I admit there is a lot of empowerment in a positive mental attitude, but coupled with faith there is no limit to the heights we may soar.
I don't mean to argue your points, which were well taken, but how would you differentiate between PMA, faith in god, and faith in stuff?
Posted by Jai Narayan on November 1, 2004, at 22:18:54
In reply to Re: If not, how do you get faith? » alexandra_k, posted by rayww on November 1, 2004, at 20:45:10
Is it your way or the highway?
what is god anyway?
did we define god yet?
why is faith not definable by us?
we can choose right?
Jai
Posted by 64bowtie on November 1, 2004, at 23:14:45
In reply to Re: If not, how do you get faith? » 64bowtie, posted by rayww on October 30, 2004, at 22:41:19
Rayww,
> I think I see what you mean. If I have faith in myself, I will say "I can do this" and "I can love this" "I can love me". Then, the most amazing gift will be to suddenly wake up and realize that our faith in God has grown too, because God promises that "inasmuch as ye have done to the least of these, my brethren, ye have done it unto me".
<<< Faith is not a verb... Faith in a godhead is a graceful state of surity in his countenance.
> Is faith faith then? Will having faith in one's self eventually lead to faith in God?
<<< You left out, "...a stronger more durable..." faith in God.
> Faith is simple. Ask a child. Some of us grow too far away from our childlike nature.
<<< A child will not create God. Without parents children won't have God. Once a child who lives in isolation becomes an adult, God emerges in their conscious awareness.
> Have you ever been around a person who worships himself?
<<< ...a narcissusistic polyschizoid ?
> How about a person who thinks of others? Whom would you say is the happiest and most fulfilled?
<<< Trick questions deserve trick answers. Instead I'll be practical. I can't judge another person's happiness and fulfillment no matter how they may protest or project any image to us.
> Those who look to God and think of others find that God looks after them. Therefore a part of faith is just that, and as god looks after us, our faith grows because we cannot help but acknowledge his hand in all things. I testify that his hand is recognizable.
<<< Certain folks have slated an arrogant view that man is incapable of this or that miracle, thus God committed the miracle; any miracle; every miracle. I'm not pointing fingers, Rayww. I'm only making an obsevation. I've personally witnessed mircales. As I studied them, they became less miracle and more luck.
Rod
Posted by 64bowtie on November 1, 2004, at 23:34:40
In reply to Re: If not, how do you get faith?, posted by alexandra_k on October 30, 2004, at 23:48:25
> I would prefer to see the world through the lens of faith.
<<< Does faith clarify the vision, or only replace it with a feeling component?
Rod
Posted by alexandra_k on November 4, 2004, at 19:14:34
In reply to Re: If not, how do you get faith? » alexandra_k, posted by rayww on November 1, 2004, at 20:45:10
> but how would you differentiate between PMA, faith in god, and faith in stuff?
I guess that I wouldn't. That is why I have been talking about how we can have faith in lots of different kinds of propositons, religious ones being just one particular variety.
Or in english, I figured that if one has faith that 'god exists' then this is the same kind of faith as having faith that 'the future will be like the past'.
But maybe religious or spiritual faith is different from the latter case. I don't know...
Posted by alexandra_k on November 4, 2004, at 19:15:28
In reply to Re: If not, how do you get faith? » alexandra_k, posted by 64bowtie on November 1, 2004, at 23:34:40
>Does faith clarify the vision, or only replace it with a feeling component?
Jeepers, thats a good question Rod. I dunno, what do you reckon?
Posted by alexandra_k on November 4, 2004, at 19:18:05
In reply to Re: If not, how do you get faith?, posted by Jai Narayan on November 1, 2004, at 22:18:54
> Is it your way or the highway?
Nope, I promise :-)
> what is god anyway?
> did we define god yet?Are you poking fun at me???
> why is faith not definable by us?
> we can choose right?
> JaiHi Jai, I am sorry about your election block :-(
Hope you are with us again and aren't too depressed over the state of the world.Thinking of you,
Your friend
a_k9
Posted by rayww on November 4, 2004, at 22:49:02
In reply to Re: If not, how do you get faith? » rayww, posted by alexandra_k on November 4, 2004, at 19:14:34
> > but how would you differentiate between PMA, faith in god, and faith in stuff?
>
> I guess that I wouldn't. That is why I have been talking about how we can have faith in lots of different kinds of propositons, religious ones being just one particular variety.<<<Alexandra, now I am beginning to understand why you (and others) don't understand faith in a God.
>
> Or in english, I figured that if one has faith that 'god exists' then this is the same kind of faith as having faith that 'the future will be like the past'.<<<<When was the end all of faith supposed to be that God exists?
>
> But maybe religious or spiritual faith is different from the latter case. I don't know...
<<<<<Now you are beginning to understand me. By admitting you don't know invites me to say I do know. If you haven't experienced it, it would be impossible to know. I have experienced it. I know God lives. I know faith gets things done, in a hurry sometimes. I know faith in God isn't just about God, its about doing His work, being His hands, saying His words, loving His love. It's about being there for miracles and recognizing them. It's about reverent prayer and holiness, and humility and meekness. It's about keeping the commandments and loving our neighbor as ourself. It's about life and living it to the fullest. Faith in God is all-encompasing. It's about a divine center, with focus on Christ, it's about redemption and exaltation. What isn't faith in God about?The big question is how does one learn to recognize faith in God? Well, you lose something, you pray, and then you find it. Prayer works every time. A little child learns at a young age about prayer and faith. These simple lessons carry her over a life time. I have never known a moment of life without faith in God. I cannot even comprehend not having faith, or not believing in God. I have seen the world, lived in it, been part of it, but always under the umbrella and protection of faith. It's a shield against the firey darts of Satan, as real as metal armor.
I think it is referred to as the "breastplate" in the whole armor of God. http://scriptures.lds.org/eph/6/14#14>;
I understand your point of view, and also that of others who don't know about God. I have never criticized anyone for their belief, have I? I don't recal ever saying you are wrong to believe as you do. You may believe however you choose, but I don't think you should assume that people who believe in God don't have what to base their belief on.
We base our belief on God himself, and that is a sure foundation. One upon which if men build they cannot fall, and that is a promise (covenant) from God himself.
http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=foundation++build+fall&search.x=31&search.y=10
>
Posted by alexandra_k on November 5, 2004, at 1:03:45
In reply to Re: If not, how do you get faith?, posted by rayww on November 4, 2004, at 22:49:02
Good afternoon rayww.
>When was the end all of faith supposed to be that God exists?
Oh, that is just my stock example of a religious proposition. You can replace it with anything you like: 'god will ensure I will get through this' or whatever.
>If you haven't experienced it, it would be impossible to know. I have experienced it. I know God lives. I know faith gets things done, in a hurry sometimes. I know faith in God isn't just about God, its about doing His work, being His hands, saying His words, loving His love. It's about being there for miracles and recognizing them. It's about reverent prayer and holiness, and humility and meekness. It's about keeping the commandments and loving our neighbor as ourself. It's about life and living it to the fullest. Faith in God is all-encompasing. It's about a divine center, with focus on Christ, it's about redemption and exaltation. What isn't faith in God about?
It seems to be about a way of life, a practice, a way in which one lives ones life, a world view. I don't think I have ever had that. I always got stuck between what I believed was right and what I did because of my problems with impulse control / missing time. I guess my faith never really got cashed out in terms of action. So maybe I never really had that.
>I have never criticized anyone for their belief, have I?
You have certaintly never criticised mine. In fact you have been very patient with me.
>I don't think you should assume that people who believe in God don't have what to base their belief on.
I guess that I do think that 'belief' in god is more properly called 'faith' because we can't access the right kind of evidence to have a justified belief that either 'god exists' or 'god does not exist' is true. It is not more rational to believe one way or the other (unless you particularly liked Pascal's wager). I know that I went through some of the arguments for the existence of god on this board and critiqued them rationally. But that doesn't show that god doesn't exist. There are also many arguments that god doesn't exist. But then we could go through them and critique them rationally as well. I guess that I think that at the end of the day the arguments stack up fairly evenly and so it is not more rational to believe one way or the other.
But then there is still faith.
I don't think that faith is second best to belief, either. I am still thinking about whether it improves vision, or just adds a componant.I know, how about both?
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 5, 2004, at 15:44:55
In reply to Re: If not, how do you get faith?, posted by rayww on November 4, 2004, at 22:49:02
> http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=foundation++build+fall&search.x=31&search.y=10
Keeping in mind that the idea here is not to put down the beliefs of others, could you please revise the above so that it doesn't include, for example, Jacob 4: 15? Thanks,
Bob
Posted by rayww on November 6, 2004, at 17:56:06
In reply to Re: If not, how do you get faith? » rayww, posted by alexandra_k on November 5, 2004, at 1:03:45
Ah, common ground at last. I can go for that.
rayww
> I don't think that faith is second best to belief, either. I am still thinking about whether it improves vision, or just adds a componant.
>
> I know, how about both?
>
>
>
>
Posted by rayww on November 6, 2004, at 18:18:41
In reply to Re: please revise that » rayww, posted by Dr. Bob on November 5, 2004, at 15:44:55
http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=%22ye+must+build+your+foundation%22&search.x=31&search.y=10
Posted by rayww on November 6, 2004, at 18:53:19
In reply to Re: please revise that » rayww, posted by Dr. Bob on November 5, 2004, at 15:44:55
Part 2
Next time you see green olives, think of how God serves all.Olive 1: Grandfather and the Green Olives
Everyone in my family loves green olives. If we have a family dinner and forget the green olives, we soon hear about it. The other day my mother asked me if I could remember Grandpa bringing us children green olives. We lived on a farm where my grandparents lived in one house and our family lived across the yard. There was one car between us and it was his. Grandpa had meetings to go to in town and would quite often bring us a treat. He did not believe in spoiling children with candy, so his treat was often a bottle of green olives. We grew up thinking of green olives as a treat.
The parallel here is that God serves us by doing what is best for us, not necessarily what we think we would like. We can learn to love the green olives of life.
Olive 2: The Allegory of the Olive Tree: - - God serves by gathering His people (including the Jews)
http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=%22how+oft+would+I%22&search.x=31&search.y=10
In the allegory of the olive tree, the ancient Prophet, Zenos describes the gathering process of the House of Israel. As is described here allegorically, God never gives up until he succeeds. The Jews and the whole House of Israel have great promise.The Olive Tree:
http://scriptures.lds.org/jacob/4 preamble
http://scriptures.lds.org/jacob/5 The allegory
http://scriptures.lds.org/jacob/6 The blessingOlive 3: "The Olive Leaf" God serves us by giving us peace eventually casting Satan out of our midst forever.
The Olive Leaf:
In December 1832 the United States of America and the world and the church was in quite a sad state of affairs.
http://www.boap.org/LDS/History/HTMLHistory/v1c22history.htmlOn Christmas day 1832 Joseph Smith received the “war prophesy”, in which he prophesied the coming civil war, and other calamities. Two days later he received the “peace prophesy”
http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=d%26c+88&search.x=31&search.y=10
He affectionately named this revelation “The Olive Leaf” plucked from the Tree of Paradise. It must have brought him great peace at the time because there was a lot of persecution and destruction happening right then. People of my faith believe these two revelations actually came from God.Bob, under the circumstances and coincidences of faith, I feel this has to be included in the preamble of my revise. If you would like further clarification……..first please explain why Jacob 4:15 caught your attention. Then, perhaps if y[L]ou could read from there to the end of the allegory in Chapter 5 and the explanation in chapter 6, I hope you would receive understanding that this is in no way antiSemitic. Thank-you.
al·le·go·ry n
1. a work in which the characters and events are to be understood as representing other things and symbolically expressing a deeper, often spiritual, moral, or political meaning
2. the symbolic expression of a deeper meaning through a story or scene acted out by human, animal, or mythical characters
3. allegories considered as a literary or artistic genre
4. a symbolic representation of something
Posted by rayww on November 6, 2004, at 18:56:23
In reply to Re: please revise that » rayww, posted by Dr. Bob on November 5, 2004, at 15:44:55
I am assuming that you have reference to the word, "Jew" in Jacob 4:15, but that being so, perhaps what I should do is make an attempt to explain the significance of that scripture to the Jews. Did you know that Mormons and Jews are the only two religions that fully accept their common ground foundation in the Old Testament? I absolutely guarantee Mormons are not anti-Semitic. We acknowledge the Abrahamic covenant, and birthright.
God covenanted with Abraham that his seed would be blessed and as innumerable as the sands of the sea. We suspect that nearly every nation on earth today has Abraham's seed mixed with theirs in fulfillment of that covenant. If you would like to study the Abrahamic covenant, here are a few (hundred) scriptures.
http://scriptures.lds.org/query? words=abrahamic+covenant&scripturesearch_button=Searchend of part 1. Please keep reading - - I haven't revised yet.
> > http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=foundation++build+fall&search.x=31&search.y=10
>
> Keeping in mind that the idea here is not to put down the beliefs of others, could you please revise the above so that it doesn't include, for example, Jacob 4: 15? Thanks,
>
> Bob
Posted by rayww on November 6, 2004, at 19:04:23
In reply to Re: please revise that: Part 1 » Dr. Bob, posted by rayww on November 6, 2004, at 18:56:23
http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=abrahamic+covenant&scripturesearch_button=Search
Posted by alexandra_k on November 7, 2004, at 11:51:18
In reply to Re: If not, how do you get faith? » alexandra_k, posted by rayww on November 6, 2004, at 17:56:06
> Ah, common ground at last. I can go for that.
> rayww
> > I don't think that faith is second best to belief, either. I am still thinking about whether it improves vision, or just adds a componant.
> > I know, how about both?Yay! (Took me long enough) :-)
That was a good question indeed.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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